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Thread: Zeiss vs. Hoya vs. Essilor vs. Shamir

  1. #1
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    Zeiss vs. Hoya vs. Essilor vs. Shamir

    Can anyone tell me in terms of progressives, which ones are the best especially those complaining of peripheral distorsions? I've heard Shamir autograph II and Hoya id are great lenses, any good lenses in Zeiss?

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    Rochester Optical WFruit's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume that you are talking Free Form progressives.

    Zeiss = Individual

    Hoya = Hoya ID

    Shamir = Autograph II

    Essilor = Ideal

    Seiko = Succeed/Supercede

    I have heard very good things about all of them. We sell both the Seiko and Shamir designs and there seems to be a slight preference towards the Seiko's. However, you should have no trouble finding people who will say that one or the other is the best.

    Especially see post #12 in this thread for some good comparative information: http://www.optiboard.com/forums/thre...125#post343125
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

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    OptiWizard Yeap's Avatar
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    i agree that Hoya ID is a great lens. just another option for you, SolaOne HD.. Zeiss we have some feedback that the reading portion is a little narrower especially they have short corridor PAL before but far vision is great..
    Yeap


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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Depends entirely on: The patient, patient's lifestyle, the patients Rx, the patients expectations, the frame dimensions, frequently POW when required, lens material/features, and of course cost both to the practice and the patient.

    Apart from that, they're pretty much the same. ;):p:shiner::cheers::hammer:

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    Tried em all..and nothing comes close to Indo lifesyle Expert for edge to edge far vision. I can tell because I have compared them while watching my 92 inch home theater screen. I like the wide intermediate on the Hoya, Pentax perfas and Shamir autograph let you shorten the coridor to make reading and laptop use easier (like the little letters on the inside of the temples..). Physio 360 was up there too, even though its not truly freeform. Zeiss has had responses about a narrower intermediate..but as was said..when its freeform, every job will be different!

    I truly like the Indo expert for myopes, and its about the same price as regular varilux.(its not truly freeform either, but it works REALLY WELL)

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    The Man, The Myth, The Legend OptiBoard Gold Supporter Fezz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snotbagel View Post
    I truly like the Indo expert for myopes, and its about the same price as regular varilux.(its not truly freeform either, but it works REALLY WELL)
    It is not?
    Why not?
    What makes it not *truly freeform*?

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    The software does not have inputs for panto, wrap , and vertex, ..no position of wear correctios. The surface ticket reads exactly as your ordered RX. A freeform lens will have at last SOME pow corrections.

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    The Man, The Myth, The Legend OptiBoard Gold Supporter Fezz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snotbagel View Post
    A freeform lens will have at last SOME pow corrections.
    Really?

    Is that what "freeform" really means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz View Post
    Really?

    Is that what "freeform" really means?
    If you listen to your average sales rep it is :cheers:

  10. #10
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Sounds like some pretty heavy Zeiss/Shamir/Hoya brainwash to me! hehe :hammer::shiner::p

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    Rochester Optical WFruit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz View Post
    Really?

    Is that what "freeform" really means?
    By what should be (but isn't yet) the standard definitions:

    Free Form = ALL progresssive power generated on the back surface of the lens. (ex: Shamir Autograph II, Seiko Succeed, Essilor Ideal (this is NOT a complete list of all Free Form lenses, just examples))

    Digitally Surfaced = lens run through special software designed to more accurately calculate back curves and generated with said curves, usually front surface molded progressive (ex: Varilux 360 and Enhanced series, Definity (yes, I know the Definity has some of the power on the back, but the front is still molded)). In theory I could run any progressive (Image, VIP, Natural, etc.) through such software and call it "Digitally Surfaced."
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

  12. #12
    OptiBoard Professional OptiBoard Silver Supporter RT's Avatar
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    How would you categorize HOYALUX ID (free form generation on both sides) or HOYALUX ID Lifestyle (vertical progression on molded front, free form back surface includes horizontal elements of progressive, including inset)?
    RT

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    Hoya has defined free-form on their website as such:"HOYA’s Free-Form design approach is based on the understanding that no two eyes are the same. Our patented Integrated Double Surface Design (IDSD) technology maps the specific rotation of each eye, creating the blueprint for lens construction. HOYA Free-Form Fabrication then uses diamond point tools to shape both sides of the lens to the exact specifications of your eye rotation." This obviously describes the Hoyalux ID which through dispensing, I have found to be the best, although the most expensive, fully free-form lens. The only other lens in this category is the Zeiss Individual, which I have Not dispensed. Every other "free-form" lens design are hybrid molded or spherical fronts with digital back side designs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    Sounds like some pretty heavy Zeiss/Shamir/Hoya brainwash to me! hehe :hammer::shiner::p
    ** Edited **

    Uilleann,

    For someone who is so tired of all the company bashing you seem to be a professional at the craft. In my neck of the woods we have a name for that.
    Last edited by YrahG; 05-25-2010 at 10:15 AM.

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    My wife, much, much wiser than I, told me I didn't have to go to every argument to which I was invited. I am going to take that advice today.



    Note: the rest of the original post has been deleted by me, to be continued by PM where it should have been to begin with.
    Last edited by hcjilson; 05-25-2010 at 08:41 AM. Reason: I felt like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RT View Post
    How would you categorize HOYALUX ID (free form generation on both sides) or HOYALUX ID Lifestyle (vertical progression on molded front, free form back surface includes horizontal elements of progressive, including inset)?
    You ever have something that you just don't know what to do with, so you basically just ignore it? Yeah, that's what this is.....

    However, after some thought, I think I have an actual answer:

    First, the debate: By the definitions I posted above, these lenses really fit into neither catagory. They are not really molded lenses, but they also do not have a spherical front surface..... so what are they?

    I'm going to go with the opinion (my alone, not endorsed by anyone, though feel free to join in) that because each lens is custom made for each individual patient, and not massed produced, they are Free Form. I'm sure everyone at Hoya is thrilled to hear this:hammer:.

    Or perhaps to go with Hoya's Phoenix brand, they should be Phree Phorm.:cheers:
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

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    Hey Sancho.....you got me! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Sheriff Jilson rides again.
    I semi retire at the close of business tomorrow. No more tilting at windmills Sancho- it's high time to let the inmates run the asylum for a while. I plan to continue to moderate but am taking hands off when it comes to anything less than a violation of posting guidelines, and even then I probably will leave it for others to clean up.The other moderators and I have spent the better part of a lot of spare time trying to shape what appears as Optiboard today.Steve takes care of the techie stuff which is fine for a former hippie!:bbg::bbg: and the rest of us try to set the tone and keep a level playing field for you folks to play on. You will notice I never wore a badge as you can plainly see under my name, so I have nothing to hang up anyway!

    Some day perhaps, when the time is right, I will give you all the story behind the story of my defense of some of the companies that grew up with me. Some of them were built by friends of mine, now long gone.Those companies are sort of old friends and i have been offended by some of the half truths and outright lies that have appeared on these pages by those who attack without regard to the facts or the truth. This violated my sense of fair play and I wasn't afraid to let anyone know that. I call them the way I see them and that's just the way I am. I have no apology for that, but that will cease tomorrow....as a matter of fact, tonight because I've got to move my stuff tomorrow.

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    Last edited by hcjilson; 05-26-2010 at 09:41 PM. Reason: PS added
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    Allen Weatherby OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFruit View Post
    By what should be (but isn't yet) the standard definitions:

    Free Form = ALL progresssive power generated on the back surface of the lens. (ex: Shamir Autograph II, Seiko Succeed, Essilor Ideal (this is NOT a complete list of all Free Form lenses, just examples))

    Digitally Surfaced = lens run through special software designed to more accurately calculate back curves and generated with said curves, usually front surface molded progressive (ex: Varilux 360 and Enhanced series, Definity (yes, I know the Definity has some of the power on the back, but the front is still molded)). In theory I could run any progressive (Image, VIP, Natural, etc.) through such software and call it "Digitally Surfaced."
    You identified the problem many participants have with freeform and digital surfaced lenses. There are no clear definitions or accepted industry buzz words yet. Some are close but then the marketing minds at one company get the definitions to be something different.

    "The lens the patient can see best with, is the best lens for that patient"

  20. #20
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    Accolade Freedom(Essilor) is a fantastic digitally surfaced lens.
    Patient's report almost no/minimul distortions.
    Good results, good feedback.

  21. #21
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    So far so good with a limited introduction of the Kodak Unique into the practice. Ice Tech does some truly amazing things in the realm of SV and PAL's in wrap frame designs.
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    We currently use the standard Physio as our bread and butter PAL. The occasional enhanced but thats far and few between. One of our docs is the office guinea pig and has tried the Individual, Physio 360, Hoya ID, and VSPs Reveal. As a mild myop with almost no astigmatism he doesn't see a dramatic difference between them. Noticeable, yes, but $100-$200 worth? Not really.
    Increase the Rx, cyl, etc. I'm sure the differences are greater but for the majority ... *hands in air*

    Sphinx

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    OptiBoard Professional SailorEd's Avatar
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    Sphinxsmith:
    The Physio used to be the bread and butter lens for us too. However, I think you should try the Seiko Supercede. We get it from our lab at LESS than the Physio AND it's an Internal Free Form lens - totally surfaced on the back. It delivers the WOW to patients with Rx's above 2.00 Sphere and/or above 1.00 cyl. It's a good way to improve your patient base and put quality lenses on a person for about the same price as the physio. Also try the free form SV lenses with the same criteria as above for those patients (we use Shamir Autograph II SV). It also gives the WOW factor.

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    So we have no "real" definition of what a "FreeForm" lens is or should be. My question is this though, why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)
    Would it not be simple to just select freeform lenses as the norm, because they can vary the corridors and eliminate a lot of distortion? And then fit these into whatever frame suits the patient (within limits)?
    Just asking for opinions on this way of thinking about lenses and options.
    It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it.

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    The Man, The Myth, The Legend OptiBoard Gold Supporter Fezz's Avatar
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    Physio Schmisio

    Quote Originally Posted by SailorEd View Post
    Sphinxsmith:
    The Physio used to be the bread and butter lens for us too. However, I think you should try the Seiko Supercede. We get it from our lab at LESS than the Physio AND it's an Internal Free Form lens - totally surfaced on the back. It delivers the WOW to patients with Rx's above 2.00 Sphere and/or above 1.00 cyl. It's a good way to improve your patient base and put quality lenses on a person for about the same price as the physio. Also try the free form SV lenses with the same criteria as above for those patients (we use Shamir Autograph II SV). It also gives the WOW factor.

    I am glad that you finally saw the light!

    :cheers::cheers::cheers:

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