Since the coming of the Sunsensor Navigator I have had very good success with it expect with previous V.C. transitions wearers. I feel that the sunsensor works better than trans so I have talked a few patients into making the switch. They have almost all complained that the bifocal is too high. I have found that if I then refit it to 3-4 below pupil they can adapt. Anyone else have similar trouble?
RJ,
I tend to agree with you.. I think FITTING is the biggest culprit in having non adapts more so then "design" .. the second phase of that in my opinion, is the opticians would benifit greatly if they kept charts around that told them the depths of the reading area in designs.. Here is the way I see it (no pun intended) you "train" the eyes to hit power points in a PAL and when you change designs that the cooridor is different in depth then it's like a getting shoes that are to "tight" :)..Since we can get lens with depth of the reading from 13 mm to 16 mm that makes a diffence in my opinion as much as having the design be hard or soft (more steps of power bands between the 180 line to the center of the reading target)
Good point though..I also found fitting the SNL, and the Elegance (S.A.) a couple mm lower also improved the adaption rate ...
Learning the lens design sure helps make life a little easier ;)
Jeff
Sun Sensors work better? How do you figure? It's not blocking 100% of UV, it takes forever to get clear once it's been activated and the greenish gray color is ... bleh. Darker than Transitions, maybe in some cases, but not in my rx.
I have personally tried the SS Navigator and it felt really weird. Never really tried lowering the seg, but frankly, I wouldn't have even thought of going that much lower. Is it's design that much different from all the other progressives that opticians need to remember to fit it like a flat top?
Don't mean to sound negative, but our technology is advancing so fast, SS Navigators make me feel like I'm back in the 80's. It was worth a try, but I'm hooked on Comforts and Panamics. And Transitions!
CJ,
Back in the 80's? When exactly do you remember the Comfort coming out ? :) Me personally.. I think that with all the designs out there we should NOT corner our self in a couple of brands and that's all we use .. oh the Comfort was top of the line for many years, but I think you have to look around and see what else is out there .. I like Zeiss and Hoya and the Natural the Life and probably 10 or so others I have used.. I think one thing that is important is the PERSON you are fitting more so then what an "optician/tech" is used to using or, in some cases LIMITED to use (chains, etc., etc.)
You can take about any design and it will work in high numbers on a NEW presbyop that has never worn a PAL.. but the problem is when you start trying to move locations of the power points by changing designs on a PAL wearer mid stream (so to speak) especially if it has a radical difference in location, corridor depth, intermediate depth, etc., etc.
Me personally I like to keep an open mind and try to always give the best fitting for the best results .. be it based on the patients willingness to purchase a base lens compared to a premium, or based on optical needs of the patient, lets be honest not everybody who walks in are going to want the best lens they are more interested in the "cost" .. I know plenty of first time wearers that are not willing to put out the price for a premium design so I try to be aware of ALL my options.. in both design, material and effective optics ..
Me? I like to keep an open mind, I guess I probably have an advantage over most opticians since I own a wholesale lab and the cost to "try out" a lot of these designs are not as costly to me :) BUT I never say, oh that's "junk" .. I hate to see the way we have been moving where the chains are driving the market and more and more the direct "advertising" to OD's and consumers making our lens choices in which designs we "prefer" and in what material ....just my opinionBTW talking about PAL's in the 80's remember the old AO's where you had to "tilt" the lens to get an OD/OS when laying out to surface :) .. now that was a HARD design :)
Jeff" grind'em if ya CAN get em" Trail
Jeff,
You make some very good points. I'm sure there are lots of excellent progressives available today. Back in the 80's, I was trying to switch all my flat top patients into various progressives with poor results. I finally found Comforts and that turned around. I don't work in a lab, I work for a group of doctors. I can choose to fit any lenses I feel are best for our patients. And, I bow to your expertise when it comes to understanding every lens in the market. I stopped trying them all once I found a trouble free design, Varilux. Why switch? It's a brand name my patients recognize, it comes with a 100% satisfaction guarantee, my patients don't have any problems, and we get great service from our rep. Price? Yes, I'll admit that we lose a few. There are other places around to get the rx filled that will happily order you an inexpensive pair. That's ok. The way I see it, if my patient buys elsewhere, and has any kind of problems..with anything..I've got a good chance of getting them back next time. Loyalty must be earned over the years.
CJ,
Have you given the Essilor Natural a try? Amazing that the Varilux and Silor are the same company, well divisions of the same company and the reps compete :) .. but never the less, I had a few of my accounts that wanted an alternative to the Comfort and we tried the Natural, I even offered the OD's the choice if they swapped out a Comfort wearer to a Natural and they could NOT adapt I replaced it back with a Comfort.. the OD's liked it for a couple of reasons.. the Natural was less ($$) and either a spitting image of the Comfort , or so close in design you can't find a difference. I have yet to have any of the people swapped out not adapt, not bad for 3 years of sells.. the other thing was once the design proved to the OD's it was a viable substitution some even started selling it for the same price as the Comfort .. while others used it as an option for those people who bulked at a premium price for a PAL...
Give it a try you might like it :) then those guys that you had walking will have an option for a less expensive lens but same quality of design as the Comfort..
Jeff" never hurts to experiment" Trail
[This message has been edited by Jeff Trail (edited 08-03-2000).]
RJ- my Kodak rep tells all his accounts to fit to seg at the base of the pupil. The intermediate area jumps in very quickly and fitting it a little lower seems to stop those nonadapts from happening.
Also keep in mind that every time a patients add changes the design of the lens is changing slightly even if they are staying in the same type of PAL. Most PAL designs today are affected by the distance and add (ie. TOP, Percepta) in the hopes of achieving the best optical clarity for each individual.
P.S. CJ- Is it just your pair of SS that are a funky blue green color? I wear that lens and have not noticed that. I also have lots of account that love it-I am wonndering of you got a bum batch???
Also, the design of the Navigator is similar to the Percepta. They did use an older design but updated it
[This message has been edited by karen (edited 08-03-2000).]
Yes,I have tried Naturals. And with good results. Thanks for reminding me. I'll have to think about that one.
Maybe I did get a bad batch of SS, but I'll never really know. Even if I didn't have a negative personal experience, I'm sticking with the brand name on this one. The UV thing is just not going to work with the doctors. We preach that totally. It's a medical thing!
By the way, I'm learning a lot since I joined the OptiBoard. Everyone is great. Thanks!
Whats going on? Just a quick note in regards to Alison's fitting problems w/ SunSensors...Please don't fit the SunSensor 3-4 mm below the pupil. In fact don't fit any progressive that low for that matter. This is not a short corridor progressive and unless you are only fitting progressives in Liz Claiborne 19 frames please stay w/in specified guidelines per each manufacturer respectively. I've seen way too many offices fitting a variety of progressives the same way or using the same Cut-out chart for every manufacturer. You sound like a problem solver that seems few and far between these days in our industry. I feel if you fit the SunSensor at the base of the pupil to start with you'll have less or no problems w/ adaptability. I've fit 50-75 of these progs w/ great success. Taking into consideration that this lens was introduced in January to the public I'm more than happy w/ it's success as a viable progressive competing in this diluted world of "superior" lens designs. Besides.....it's ALWAYS a new len's design thats at fault since it could never be an optician's lack of growth or unwillingness to accept new products as an excuse for refusal to dispense. This lens is not the final answer to plastic photochromics but it is the next in technological advances. Who can dispute Corning as a leader in this technology? Heck they invented it. So please to all that read this, understand your "new" prog choices when dispensing, get the right fit chart, and get the respective manufacturers lens rep in to give a thorough product demonstration.Good luck Alison, and to all a good night.
For what it's worth. The Natural is quite similar to Comfort but has a longer intermediate,,,'bout 2 mm's. That may or may not be significant.
Re: a couple dollars difference in price. Tho Natural and Comfort are from the same company, Varilux BUILT the PAL market. That should be worth something. Also, how many Natural reps do you see as an independent? They call on the chains. Vx is sold primarily to independents. That's worth a bunch to me.
The navigator is an older design but quite workable. Signet Armorlite recommends fitting at 22 mm's.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Originally posted by Maxwell:
Whats going on? ............. I've fit 50-75 of these progs w/ great success. Taking into consideration that this lens was introduced in January to the public I'm more than happy w/ it's success as a viable progressive competing in this diluted world of "superior" lens designs.
Hi Maxwell, I see this is your first post so welcome.
I'm intrigued to read that you have fitted quite a few of these Navigator lenses with great success, I've only dispensed three pairs and they have all ended in failure, however when switched to Hoya Wide Sungrays the problems have all gone.
Tell me, can you remember if these patients were first time users, and if not what had they been wearing previously?
All best, Clive
Hi Clive! Do you guys have the Sungray 4 over there yet or are you fitting the Sungray 2-if it is the 2 I am curious as to how it is working. I found it did not get as dark as the Sunsensors but the 4 is supposed to. I am ordering a pair to try for myself as soon as we get them which should be any day.Originally posted by Clive Noble:
[
I'm intrigued to read that you have fitted quite a few of these Navigator lenses with great success, I've only dispensed three pairs and they have all ended in failure, however when switched to Hoya Wide Sungrays the problems have all gone.
[/I]
Karen, Hallo... we're using the Sungray2 I didn't know there was a S.4 available.Originally posted by karen:
Hi Clive! Do you guys have the Sungray 4 over there yet or are you fitting the Sungray 2-......
I must say that personally I don't like the colour of the S.2... it's a touch on the greenish side, but the optics of the 'Wide' are great.
Tell us more about the S.4 if you can.
Ok, the SG4 is the next generation of photochromics from Hoya and is on it's way to us as I write this. It will be available initially in the Wide and in SV (I think). It is supposed to be darker then the 2. I usually reseve judgement on that until I walk around in it myself so I will email you with the results after I get my pair made up. (I will also email you when it is available) I want to try it with the HiVision coating to see how it matches up to the Zeiss but I also want them done before the show and I still don't have my frame yet so...
I believe it is the same technology as the SS-the photochromic dye is injected when the lens is cast so the whole monomer is changing. If I hear anything else worthwhile I will let you know
[This message has been edited by karen (edited 08-14-2000).]
I try and never fit progressives lower than I have to but when the patient complains they need to lower their chin to see distance, that tells me the sucker is too high. Like I said before, this only happens with previous V.C. wearers. I don't feel the length or design of the corridor has anything to do with it. I'm starting to wonder if the engravings aren't sometimes off or maybe the factory stampings aren't where they should be. I used to find the old Varilux plus weren't always right and you had to remove the factory marks, find the engravings and start from scratch. When I recieve the S.S. from the lab the factory marks are gone so I can't tell if this is the problem. I have also had a few bum lenses where they just won't darken. The lab claims I am the only one to complain but I tried taking them out in bright sunlight and nothing. In conclusion, I am getting frustrated with the lens and am not a big Varilux fan. It's kind of like buying Microsoft products. That's why I use a Mac :^)
Hello Maxwell,
Do you work for Signate/Armorlite? You seem to have an awful lot of specific information. It's no problem if you do but I would ask that you please specify it on your profile. That way if we have any specific questions about the products from S/A we know who to ask.
BTW good information.
Darris Chambless
PS If you do work for S/A I would like to get some information from you on some lens designs. Thanks, D.C.
Hello Darris.....
Is this line secure? I go by the name Maxwell, I feel I can trust you. I roam the landscapes of Southern California fighting the evil we opticians know all to well as "remakes". The evil is rampant, hiding in forms like "Optician's error,inferior optics,out-dated lens designs,and to name only one of many more.....BAD BATCHES!" I must work fast as the RHC is on my trail.....I'm sure you've heard of the RHC? Rep Haters Coalition. You know them....the ones that pick up the phone as you walk in the door, the ones that think you're a lateral move to a tele-marketer....the ones that don't listen to you and then blame your product when it's not fit corectly. Maybe you belong to this group,No? Nevertheless I will trust you for I am tired and weak from my work today. I have learned many things in my travels and look forward to learning more from people as yourself. I welcome your knowledge and pay homage to your experience. Now I must expose my identity.......I look forward to doing battle with you on my side, we will work hard these next weeks and then party in "The Meadows". My friend .....I work for S-I-(Narrative: a sniper shot of nose pad oil hits our hero square in the fitting eye temporarily disabling him and leaving him helpless against the advances of evil) BACK TO THE REPLY.....Darris, it is I, Raphael "seconds" Lopez! I am the leader of RHC! I will conquer,I will do things my way! No one can defeat us(unless they have coupons)but back to my evil tone!What has Maxwell told you? Who is his financial backing? I MUST KNOW! He will talk now that I have him in my needle nose pliers and if he does'nt I will find you and get the information he has given!(evil music plays in the background)
Goodbye for now..............on a happy note, please send your family my best!
Ooh, Hi Mike ;-)
How's things? The RHC? Can't say I know much about 'em but I've worked with people that do just what you described when reps come in.
The only reason I was asking whether or not you work for S/A is because your posting had overtones of knowledge that only a rep would keep up with. I just thought it was unusual. Your profile said "Lens Pimp" so I assumed you were a rep for someone. Just curious and not out to "take you down" like the RHC.
Out here where I'm from we don't get reps for a lot of things so we miss out on a lot of new info. So it's nice to know when there is one available to answer questions. In fact if you do work for S/A I have a question about press on bifocals that I need answered for a patient. Why don't they make a +2.25? I need a set.
Well, I guess I'll talk to you later.
Darris "The always succinct" Chambless
Daris, I have a set of +2.25 press on bifocals. They're Optix. They don't stay on the best but the optics are good.
Hey rj,
How do I get in contact with Optix?
Let me know and thanks for the information.
Darris C.
Just caught up with this string; some great discussion! Haven't fit any SS navigators; do lots of Trans.Variluxs and a couple poly quantumn naturals(really nice photooptics). the new Panamic transitions is a quantumn trans 4 tech. except it's the material in in mid-index instead of poly. another thing, we do all our own edging, and the first thing we do is remove any ink reference marks on PAL lenses, then use a micro fine sharpie pen to spot the mfgs. engraving marks, carefully noting the add marks on the temporal side of the uncut(helps us not edge it for the wrong eye). We see more pal problems with prescribing errors than anything else. causes problems to "over plus" adds a .25 as the premium lens design already compensate in the design. i.e. some people are taught to add a .25 if it's a pal, and some doctors add a .25 when they write the rx, if they know the pt is getting a pal, so you may end up with an add .50 too strong! that causes the sensation of a high seg position too. also, before you let the pt "read" through the near area, be sure they can see at the distance. if they can, let them read, but if they can't, refer them back to the eye doctor, without letting them read. passing on this advice given by an industry expert; very effective.
Darris my man.......
First off let me acknowledge your use of the word "succint". Word has it that Kodak will have a short corridor progressive named "Koncise" due out in Oct-Nov-ish. (Succint.....Consise)
Also, my earlier log in was meant in unadulterated fun, that's it. Yes I work for Signet-Armorlite and we do cast SunSensors for Corning too. But what I was trying to get across previously wasn't so much a positive plug for the product I push, but for proper use of lenses by opticians in general. I take my profession seriously and am yet to meet someone (opticians) that might question their abilities before bashing new products. I've been fortunate to actually dispense and work with most every lens product on the market, not all.....but a substantial amount. I feel it's imperative for reps to know not only their product thoroughly but also the "competitors" when applicable. I've only been in the industry for eleven years and it's amazing how much I continue to learn every day.
Darris, my friend Karen speaks highly of you and I think the same of her.....I would like to be able to call on you with any future "optical Question" I might have if that's cool with you? you can e-mail me at eyecafe@msn.com if you like and anybody else for that matter! I can give you the facts on anything Signet-Armorlite represents ie: Kodak, Navigator, SunSensor etc.Peace!
Hello again Maxwell,
I understood what your original post was intending to do. That's why I said it was great info. It doesn't matter to me if you're a rep for any company, all I want is a means by which to get information first hand if it's available from the source.
Like I said we don't get a lot of the information on products first hand out here. I think it's because we're in a vacuum or something. We have a boutique optical here in San Angelo and we litterally have to call some of the high end frame companies and request that they send a rep out to us so we can see the different lines. All we get are the basics that have called out here for years. As for lens companies, when we call to ask if there are any reps in our area we are usually met with "No we don't have any reps in your area. Thanks for calling (CLICK!)" When we try to get information sent to us by different companies, sometimes we get it and sometimes we don't. I think it depends on the mood of the person answering the phone.
So my question to you is if you know the answer why can I not get a +2.25 press-on bifocal power from Signet? We were originally told that they were available. I need a set for a patient.
I have recieved the information on the SunSensor and have had good luck with it so far. I would like to know about the "Consise." I haven't heard anything about it until you mentioned it just now.
Tell Karen I said hello. You may contact me with any questions you may need answered at any time. BTW when you see Karen again ask if she was able to razz Jason Blue about not getting in contact with Chad, Pete and I while we were in Nawlins :-) He piffed out on us.
Take care,
Darris Chambless
Darris- I haven't been able to call him a piffster yet- haven't seen him since the meeting where we talked about you. I imagine he will be at the show so I will tell him then, are you going to be there to tell him yourself??? Then we could meet in person as I will probobly be in the same booth that he is in.
Darris, the number for Optix is 800-662-2460
Rodney
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