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Thread: Let's have a heated debate!

  1. #51
    since 1964 Homer's Avatar
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    Darris,

    great comments!


    You said:
    "In my books your forgiven."

    Not knowing what your book is I have no clue what you would be refering to. Nor do I have any knowledge of who would be forgiving me in said book. Could you give me a clue on this?
    ________________________________________________
    well..
    My books are my own internal accounting system which is influenced by the Bible, great people I know and respect and school of hard knocks. My accounting system only clears people with me, but I am not the ultimate judge.

    Thanks for the feed back, I understand and respect your position much better now.

    On with the rest of life!

  2. #52
    Master OptiBoarder Night Train's Avatar
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    I am wondering if we (I) are/am somewhat selling ourselves short on our Christianity. Maybe for the sake of being inclusive. It sure sounds right and good to say that Everyone who believes something will be allowed in heaven but thats just not consistent with the Bible. The Bible teaches something completely different than books of other faiths. Do I believe other faiths are tickets to hell? No, not exactly, and thats another topic all together. Lets just say that I think God will provide opportunity to everyone. But Christianity is radically differnet than other beliefs. In Islam, God is Transendent and Distant and entrance into heaven is conditional based upon submission to Allah. In Christianity, there is the concept of Grace and God can be called Father. The Koran is the revelation of God (hence it must always be in the original Arabic) and it is the closest way of Knowing God, But in Christianity, Christ is the Revelation of God, and the Bible is a book to help us understand that revelation.
    If I werent a Christian, I might consider Budhism.
    Life is Suffering
    Suffering is called by Desire
    You have to get rid of desire and the only way to do that is to withdrawl from the world and become Spock.

    I dont see that at all as remotely similar though to the way the Bible would tell us to live or resond to suffering.

    One other note, The Bible is THE ONLY Faith Book in which the Future is accurately predicted and Christianity is the only faith based on historical eveidences.

  3. #53
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Hello Homer,

    Thank you for the compliment. It is intresting to note that there are so many similarities in our beliefs. My beliefs lay with Christian teachings as well as life experiences and technically speaking I am by all accounts Christian and I'm okay with that, but I would consider myself more of a Godcian (I made that up can you tell ;) I say that because I always look to the greater power for guidance. I believe Jesus to have been a great man with wonderful ideas and a message given to him that he was destined to share with the world. That had to be an awesome responsibility and not one I could have undertaken.

    Night Train,

    As to the Bible itself, it is filled with historical fact as well as what is (IMHO) the perfect guidelines for living ones own life, but there are contradictions throughout it's pages. When I say that I'm not saying that what is said in the Bible contradicts something elsewhere, but does in fact contradict itself. The contradictions are not beyond the realm of the reality therein but are contradictions none the less. With that said it is entirely possible that although historical fact is envolved there could be "interpretations" or someone's view of how the events actually occurred, that may not be consistant with another. There is also the possibility of embelishment for certain events as well as "poetic license" in a sense.

    Again I'm not saying that the things in the Bible didn't happen as is stated but I am saying that some of the writers or later translators could have taken some of the events and made them more to their liking. We will probably never know for sure at least not until we pass on to the next life and yes I do believe there is life after death and actually more than that even, but that is a whole other can of worms :)

    Anyway, I will leave you all with the perfect saying to anyone (I saw it on a bumpersticker)

    "If you live life like there is no God, you'd better be right!" :)

    Take care to all my brethern and sisterin. Amen and God bless.

    Darris C.

  4. #54
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    I notice this thread has begun the inevitable journey down the board, so I apologize for causing it to rise to the top again.

    First, I'd like to observe that most Brits seem to have a disdain for "religion" (at least in proportionally greater numbers than here in the States). I have a feeling the "bad rep" religion faces in the UK comes from the fact that it has been entangled with the monarchy for centuries. From before Henry VIII, through his daughter Elizabeth, and on through the years to modern day Northern Ireland, religion has been the cause of untold death, destruction, and misery in the "kingdom." No wonder many Brits cast a jaundiced eye at the offerings of "grace and mercy" the Christian religion holds out as an enticement to believe!

    Second, not to be picky, but using the terms "Catholic" and "Christian" in opposition seems a bit dicey to me. "Catholic" and "Protestant" would be better. I only say this because I know some fellow Protestants who seem to feel that Catholics aren't Christians (and vice versa). This is ridiculous, because until 1517 they were one and the same! Furthermore, changes have occured within both the Protestant and Catholic movements to the point where they are becoming less and less distinct within the Christian movement. If you want to summarize the difference in focus between the two, you need look no further than their places of worship. In a Protestant sanctuary, the pulpit (representing the speaking of the Word of God) is central and the bapistry is usually to the side. In a Catholic sanctuary, the Sacraments are central and the podium is off to the side... The conflict between Catholic and Protestant belief concerns priesthood and the Papal rule. The only reason it has been sustained in centuries past was because it was politically beneficial to be on one side or the other of the issue. My guess is that we are seeing less and less difference between the two camps because the difference is of dwindling political importance.

    Now, "How does one know if their religion is the correct one?" Of course, this is the question that has been thrown in the face of the religious since Cain killed Abel (funny that the first recorded murder in history was over a religious dispute, eh?). Naturally, the poser of this question will accept neither possible answer. If answered "One can't know," the response is "Then how DARE you have anything prescriptive to say about religion!?!" On the other hand, any attempt to claim that one religion can be thought of as true exclusive of all others is met with "What a narrowminded and egotistical view" or some other exclamation of disgust and ridicule.

    Unfortunately, I think such questions cast a darkening shadow over the real issue. Namely, only truth is true. Given that perhaps the validity of a religion cannot be physically demonstrated like the validity of 2+2=4. However, it cannot be denied that some answer or other does equal truth. Clouding this fact by saying "Well, no one can know with absolute certainty what is absolutely true, so..." seems to me to simply avoid the question of "What is truth?" (btw, this was the question asked by Pilate when faced with the person of Christ).

    In making a final point, anyone bored enough to have read all the above will say "But you haven't answered the original question!" (namely, "How can you be sure your belief is correct?"). Debating varying concepts of what truth are is worthwhile- trying to defend one's concept of truth when the questioner has offered no opinion of their own concerning truth is not only fruitless but frustrating.

    Jo has actually posited a belief concerning truth which can be debated.

    Sorry, I don't believe there is one correct religion. The world's cultural makeup doesn't allow for that. What, if you aren't Popular Religion X, then you are going to spend the rest of eternity in damnation? Never mind if you live on a remote island and have never heard or Popular Religion X. I don't think so.

    Actually, C.S. Lewis used the various cultures of the world as a proof that there is indeed one Creator God. Even with the varying religions and expressions of belief across the world, there are huge consistencies in the morality of mankind. For example, no matter what culture murder is almost universally an evil. Likewise for respect for the elderly, a concept of marriage, etc. Sure, there are variations, but they pale in relation to the similarities.

    Even if I could get Jo to agree that the cultures of the world are strikingly similar, I would assume she would then argue that it is patently unfair to have a religion that excludes a large portion of the world's population from eternal bliss- because depending on where you are born you will be predisposed toward one religion or another. In other words, if Christianity happens to be, in fact, a true belief structure, isn't it unfair to someone who is born and raised in the jungles of Africa without any exposure to the "Savior" whose grace is required by the Christian religion?

    What of those who live in predominantly "Christian" areas, who for some reason or other happen not to believe in the "Good Message?" Well, to reference Homer's religion of choice (assuming that is Judaism), I'd point out that God preferring His "chosen people" to the Egyptians and Babylonians also seems rather unfair.

    Anyway, this is way too long already. I've studied a few other religions to varying degrees, and I consider myself a Christian. That doesn't mean I agree with some of the things carried out in the name of that religion- or even in some of the "accepted" doctrines of the church associated with that religion. It also doesn't mean I think I have a corner on the "knowledge of God" market or think anyone should necessarily change their views to something closer to my own. If you have an alternative view regarding the origin of the world, mankind, the nature of God, etc., its fun to bounce around arguments, but without an alternative world view to argue against, it is impossible to begin to assert the correctness of a particular religious view!

    I was once in an online debate with an atheist that raged about 6 months. We went back and forth- and each scored our points- but in the end, he and I were no closer to agreement. We did, however, have some respect for each other's opinions and had reinforced some of our own beliefs with researched facts, which I suppose is the real profit from debates on the esoteric.

    As for "life before birth," the Bible claims that God knows us "before we are born." I would guess that each person's spirit is eternal in nature (actually, I think that is a doctrine more developed in the Mormon church than the Christian church). Whether it is eternal or not, it seems that its eternal state is determined by the activity of the body and soul during each person's brief physical existance (if that makes any sense).

    Oh well, that's all I have to say about that... ;)
    Its nice to be back from vacation (WHAT am I saying??? This time last week a nice guy named Moncef was scraping the crumbs off my dinner setting... I wanna go back!). I pick up the pics today- I'll have to post one or two...
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  5. #55
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    That's allright Pete. It turns out that only an estimated 3% of the world's population is primal-indigenous.Perhaps folks should take the following quiz and find out what religion they would be better suited for.

  6. #56
    Master OptiBoarder Night Train's Avatar
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    My final two cents. (at least for today) One of the best songs I have ever heard pretty much describes the state of turmoil inside a lot of Christians. They really WANT to believe, but the state of the world and the things they see make them doubt. Its Harder to believe than not too. In the end, they move on in this "dejected, head down" kind of way. Everyone will always think that God has abandoned us.

    THE ORPHANS OF GOD
    by Mark Heard.
    I will rise from my bed with a question again
    As I work to inherit the restless wind
    The view from my window is cold and obscene
    I want to touch what my eyes haven't seen

    But they have packaged our virtue in cellulose dreams
    And sold us the remnants 'til our pockets are clean
    Til our hopes fall 'round our feet
    Like the dust and dead leaves
    And weend up looking like what we believe

    We are soot-covered urchins running wild and unshod
    We will always be remembered as the orphans of God
    They will dig up these ruins and make flutes of our bones
    And blow a hymn to the memory of the orphans of God

    Like bees in a bottle we are flying at fate
    Beating our wings against the walls of this place
    Unaware that the struggle is the blood of the proof
    In choosing to believe the unbelievable truth

    But they have captured our siblings and rendered them mute
    They've disputed our lineage and poisoned our roots
    We have bought from the brokers who have broken their oaths
    And we're out on the streets with a lump in our throats

    We are soot-covered urchins running wild and unshod
    We will always be remembered as the orphans of God
    They will dig up these ruins
    And make flutes of our bones
    And blow a hymn to the memory of the orphans of God

    From Satellite Sky

  7. #57
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Bing! Bing! Bing!

    BING! BING! BING!

    Pete has just won the award for having a longer post than any I've ever written :bbg:

    Anyway,

    That's good stuff dude. After reading it though I must say that it sounded an awful lot like what I said but I wasn't as detailed :)

    It's good to have you back from vacation. I like knowing you're around.

    Take care to all,

    Darris C.

  8. #58
    since 1964 Homer's Avatar
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    And the beat goes on ...

    Night Train ... Do you think the termoinl is only in Christians?

    Good poem!



    Pete: You stated accuately that : "Second, not to be picky, but using the terms "Catholic" and "Christian" in opposition seems a bit dicey to me. "Catholic" and "Protestant" would be better. I only say this because I know some fellow Protestants who seem to feel that Catholics aren't Christians (and vice versa). This is ridiculous, because until 1517 they were one and the same!


    And then you stated: (actually, I think that is a doctrine more developed in the Mormon church than the Christian church).

    Which seems to indicate a possible prejudice, since the rest of the religious world would call Mormans Christian.

    Good to have you back Pete. I knew you'ld be in this one if your weren't on vacation.

    IMNAHO, the peoples of the world are more the same than they are different ..... including their view of a supreme being and/or a creator. What they most often differ about is the description of that being.

    Even among those who have relatively the same descriptive concepts, such as Judaism and Christianity, there is great difference in the response to the somewhat common description of the Almighty One.

    Look at any American denomination of Portestant Christianity and see how much they disagree and have split over it.

    Our concepts of "God" are far to small and far to exclusive. So the danger seems to be in the basic attempt to describe this Eternal Spirit. If we should attempt it, we should not exclude other attempts.

  9. #59
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    And then you stated:
    (actually, I think that is a doctrine more developed in the Mormon church than the Christian church).
    Which seems to indicate a possible prejudice, since the rest of the religious world
    would call Mormans Christian.


    You got me there, Homer! Actually, the thought that I could be accused of religious bigotry crossed my mind even as I typed it, but it was late on a Friday afternoon, and...

    Thanks for agreeing with my main point, however (i.e., Catholics and Protestants worship the same monotheistic God, share basically the same view of soteriology, and have many similar doctrines). Just to defend what might have been subconsciously going through my mind, Mormonism does introduce additional "revelations" (purportedly given to Joseph Smith during early American times). Therefore, I'd suggest it could be properly called a sect of the Christian church if not even a cult. In contrast, the only difference in revelatory texts between the Catholic and Protestant churches is the apocrypha- which was pretty much excluded by Luther out of spite (actually, had he had his way, Protestant Bibles would be without the end of the NT from the book of James on- turns out Martin was a bit anti-semitic in later life). I'd make the same argument against including Jehovah's Witnesses in the mainstream of "Christianity." I'm not discounting either of these belief systems, btw- they just contain elements that add to the original tenets of Christianity.

    Anyway, if I'm not mistaken the Mormon church believes there are a collection of spirits just waiting for bodies to inhabit (which is one of the rationales behind polygamy- gotta have lots and lots of children). Although I haven't studied Mormon theology to a great extent, I would suppose it necessarily follows that they must have a developed series of thoughts on life before birth (which was part of the original question).

    Awesome web site, Jo. Interesting to note that a little over 50% of the world's population identify with the same monothesitic God (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). Pretty sad that the adherents to these three groups are the source of most of the modern world's conflict, eh? If you start with the idea that the Bible is the authoritative source for insight on the thoughts and commands of God (which I do, but many don't), Romans chapter one would suggest that at one time all mankind did have the same concept of the one, true God at the beginning of time. To me, this would account for the similarity in ethics from culture to culture. Over time, individuals and branches of humanity "turned their backs" on truth and have chosen to worship false gods, animals, idols, etc.

    Finally (and the thought that I had created a Darris-esque post also crossed my mind, Darris... what can I say except that I've obviously been away too long?), I will make this stab of explaining how I "know" my religion (or more properly put, my beliefs about the existance and person of God) are correct. Einstein (to whom I am making no comparisons) believed in the existence of certain structures and properties of the universe even before he could actually prove some of them. His theories were science, because they came from observations and repeated tests of those observations. My observations lead me to believe there is a single creator God who has revealed Himself to mankind through general (the created stuff around us) and divine (the Bible) revelation.

    Since the creation of the world isn't a repeatable, observable event (unless one of you knows something I don't), I suppose the final word on how we "got here" won't be answered until a meteor ends us all in a blazing catastrophe, we blow each other into annihilation with nuclear weapons, or we meet in the Final Judgement called for in the Bible (or perhaps we manage to rid ourselves of all desire, or reincarnate our way up, or whatever else it may take to reach Heaven, Paradise, Nirvana, Valhalla, etc.).
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  10. #60
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    Pete Hanlin said:

    Interesting to note that a little over 50% of the world's population identify with the same monothesitic God (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). Pretty sad that the adherents to these three groups are the source of most of the modern world's conflict, eh?
    Interesting comments about whether God is on our side or we are on God's side:

    Whether it was from these experiences or from other sources, Lincoln's speeches and conversation revealed a spiritual perception far above the ordinary. It is one of the great ironies of the history of Christianity in America that the most profoundly religious analysis of the nation's deepest trauma came not from a clergyman or a theologian but from a politician who was self-taught in the ways of both God and humanity. The source of Lincoln's Christian perception will probably always remain a mystery, but the unusual depth of that perception none can doubt. Nowhere was that depth more visible than in his Second Inaugural Address of March 1865: "Both [North and South] read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes." Even more to the point was his reply when a minister from the North told the president he "hoped the Lord is on our side." Responded Lincoln, "I am not at all concerned about that. . . . But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side."

    From: The Ambiguous Religion of President Abraham Lincoln by Mark A. Noll
    http://www.adherents.com/misc/Lincoln.html

  11. #61
    since 1964 Homer's Avatar
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    Good post, Jo!

    There is a verse that say "and a little child shall lead them" ... probably someone without training and not an adult acting "childish".



    Pete stated: [Awesome web site, Jo. Interesting to note that a little over 50% of the world's population identify with the same monothesitic God (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism).]

    Has anyone ever tried to explain, sucessfully, to any of the orther 67% of world religions (expecially Judaism and Islam) how Christianity can be classified as a "monotheistic" religion and still maintain the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit doctrine?

  12. #62
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Homer said:
    Has anyone ever tried to explain, sucessfully, to any of the orther 67% of world
    religions (expecially Judaism and Islam) how Christianity can be classified as a "monotheistic" religion and still maintain the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit doctrine?


    Same God, different aspects- much the same as a person could be said to have a body, soul, and spirit. We think with our minds (well, most of the time, anyway ;) ), act with our bodies, and transcend this transient state with the continuation of our spirit (don't mean to get freaky sounding there, I just mean who we are lives on after we die).

    Surely Judaism contains the concept of finding different aspects of the same God. There are tons of names for the different characteristics of God in the OT (e.g., Jehovah Jireh- God the Provider).

    Actually the whole "Trinity" doctrine has been expanded from only a few verses of the Bible (one of them simply a baptismal formula saying you should baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Jesus said "He who has met me has met the Father," implying they are one and the same. One could say from creation to the birth of Christ, God made Himself known mostly through His role of "Father," or the covenant maker with Israel. The 33 year span of Christ's life saw the physical manifestation of God as an example and eventual expiation for mankind. Now, God's Spirit continues on as a consciousness or positive influence in the world. Yeah, there are difficulties with this theory (Christ prays to the Father, etc.), but they are not inexplicable (but getting into it here would create a REALLY long post).
    ;)

    Of course, Jehovah Witnesses get around this whole issue by claiming that Christ is not God but was created by Him (I may have my people mixed up, but I think their views on this issue descend from the teachings of Pelagius, which were rejected in the fifth century). The Godness v. Humanity of Christ was a theological problem that was mostly worked out during the first few centuries A.D.

    Anyway, the whole doctrine is one that really isn't discussed much in the Bible, is misunderstood by most Christians (Catholic and Protestant alike), and doesn't necessarily change the God of Christianity from the God of Judaism and perhaps even Islam (though they would certainly hold differing views on the physical manifestation of God issue).
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
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  13. #63
    opti-tipster harry a saake's Avatar
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    Lightbulb religion

    RELIGION, great idea, if we could get everyone to practice it and keep it to themselves.

  14. #64
    Bad address email on file OptiBoard Gold Supporter Sean's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: religion

    harry a saake said:
    RELIGION, great idea, if we could get everyone to practice it and keep it to themselves.
    Hit the nail right on the head.I'll stand buy you on that one.

  15. #65
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    God is for men.
    Religion is for women.

    G. Washington

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