Let's have a heated debate!

[Sean]

Originally posted by Night Train
So you wont catch me telling othyer people what to beleive.

That's exactly what i meant by saying "To Each Their Own"

[Night Train]

Originally posted by John R
[B]

I have spent 43 years comming to my opinion...

I guess what I was trying to say in what now looks like a very idiotic way (Really, I should sleep on these things before I post!)
is that if one goes though life wearing those sunglasses that make things look yellow or pink or blue, then, pretty soon, if they dont realize they are wearing those sunglasses, they beging to form certain opinions of the world based on false perception. We need a lense through which we can view the world with some truth. My lense is (ok...no one cringe here) the Bible. It really is an incredible book unlike any other. It keeps me thinking with some perspective....at the very least.

[Homer]

how looking through the "lens of the Bible" people see quite different things. Compare:

Billy Graham & David Koresh

Jim Jones & Mother Theresa

Martin Luther & The Pope

Me & You

I have nothing bad to say about the Bible but whow can it be used differently.

Hitler, for instance, was not doing anything different than what the Church and even Luther suggested should happen to the Jews - he was just very efficient in carrying it out.

[Homer]

Does anyone see a difference between faith and religion?

If I live out my faith or live by my faith, is that a religion?

If I have a cultural practice that I do not claim to be a religious duty or activity, that is acceptable .... but If I claim it to be part of my faith then it become offensive?

Doesn't everyone live by faith? In something or someone - even if that someone is themselves? It that also a religion?

[Night Train]

Originally posted by Homer
how looking through the "lens of the Bible" people see quite different things. Compare:

Billy Graham & David Koresh

Jim Jones & Mother Theresa

Martin Luther & The Pope

Me & You

I have nothing bad to say about the Bible but whow can it be used differently.

Hitler, for instance, was not doing anything different than what the Church and even Luther suggested should happen to the Jews - he was just very efficient in carrying it out.

Some people come to the Bible with an agenda, others just come thirsty. And then there are those who, in their thirst, twist things to meet their needs (Even I am guilty of that one sometimes) But Do you honestly believe someone like David Koresh or Adolph Hitler made legitimate observations about life based on what the Bible actually says?

[hcjilson]

I've been doing my best to keep out of this...I thought I would follow my fathers advice on not debating religion while at work!

Mankind made religion, our Creator had nothing to do with it. If you need some evidence of that see the movie! George Burns made a wonderful God in Oh God with John Denver.In that movie he has addressed 99% of the questions raised here.If you haven't seen it, give it a shot and rent it.Its a great explanation of the points we make that have no resolution, I swear it.....So help me....ME!.( That was God in court!)

We are all energy.Your thoughts are electrical impulses.Your motions are electical impulses.
Whats the one thing you cannot do to energy.........You cannot destroy it! Of course there is life before birth, and while none of us knows with certainty...there is life after death.It will be in whatever form energy takes at death.Its a reasonably simple concept.
best to all hj

[Homer]

Quote:
But Do you honestly believe someone like David Koresh or Adolph Hitler made legitimate observations about life based on what the Bible actually says?
__________________________________________________

What does the "Bible actually say"? It states that:

If our son goes too far astray we should stone him.

Women should always have their heads covered and men should not wear long hair.

We should turn the other cheek and give our shirt to the one who seals our coat.

We should not eat pork and shell fish.


Which of these things does it actually say?

[Homer]

:cheers:

Great contribution! I especially like the part about eternal energy and yet changing forms!

You did your Daddy proud! :cheers:

[hcjilson]

Mankind made the Bible too!And changed it to suit his needs as necessary.The Bible has been rewritten many many times.

Homer, I think the old testament says all of the above, which is just fine for the Christians and
Jews.....but what about the Chinese, the aboriginal Austrailians, Inuit and others? A interesting sidelight you all may not have known.
Every religion known to mankind shares one thing in common.They all have it in one form or another.
"Do unto others as you would have others do to you!"The golden rule is the same in every religion on earth.

I'm off for the day!best from hj

[chip anderson]

In the optical business, politics and the justice system the golden rule is: He who has the gold rules.

Chip:p

[Homer]

I think everyone needs to spend some time in a completely different culture just to begin to appreciate the common-ness rather than pointing and laughing at the strange colours from a distance.

In every religion on can probably fine the "golden rule", but one is sure to find the "other golden rule" in every culture!


BTW, the first and last are from the so-called Old Testament and the other two are from the so-called New Testament -- both only mentioned because Night Train was talking about what the Bible really says.

[Night Train]

Originally posted by Homer
Quote:

What does the "Bible actually say"? It states that:

If our son goes too far astray we should stone him.

Women should always have their heads covered and men should not wear long hair.

We should turn the other cheek and give our shirt to the one who seals our coat.

We should not eat pork and shell fish.


Which of these things does it actually say?

Homer, you raise a very important question here with your post. That Question is, What criteria will we use to decide which portions of the Bible can we "lift out" and count as true and applicable and which portions are not. Should we only accept the parts that can be verified from another historical source? Or maybe we should only accept those bits which are also found to be consistent with other religions? Or maybe we can discount any portions we determine are strictly cultural and /or dated? Or maybe....just maybe....this incredible book, the only one of its kind, is complete and timeless enough to supercede our finite minds and our preconceptions. I know of no other book that has been written over a period of hundreds of years by many different men. And I am amazed at how that very book contains such a constant theme. I am also amazed that there are over 120 (at the very least if you only count the obvious ones) individual instances where the future is accurately predicted. The Bible may say many confusing things that cause us to ask many unanswerable questions, but it still manages to say several undisputable, very profound things that cause me to be speechless. It is definately a book to be read and considered very deeply at the very least. William Phelps, a one-time president of Yale University once said, " I thoroughly believe in a university education for both men and women; but I believe a knowledge of the Bible without a college course is more valuable than a college course without the Bible."

By the way, I have another interesting question....how do we define sin? For those of us who have posted here a belief in a higher being, I am wondering how each of you decide what is displeasing to that higher being? And, is it relevant?

Oh...and by the way, if everyone is wondering where Pete has been on this thread....He has decided that a luxury cruise in the tropical waters of south Florida was more appealing than a theologocal discussion. What I want to know is, WHY WEREN'T WE INVITED????

[Joann Raytar]

In our complex world, The Ten Commandments still pretty much cover what we will encounter.

The Ten Commandments for Christians:[list=1][*]I am the Lord your God, You Shall have no Other gods Before Me. [*]You Shall Not Make for Yourself Graven Images[*]Do Not Take God's Name in Vain. [*]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.[*]Honor your Father and Mother[*]Do Not Kill [*]Do Not Commit Adultery[*]Do Not Steal[*]Do Not Lie [*]Honor Your Neighbor's Goods and All That Belongs to Him[/list=1]The Ten Commandments for Catholics:[list=1][*]I am the Lord your God, Do Not Have False Gods.[*]Do Not Take God's Name in Vain. [*]Keep Holy the Lord's Day[*]Honor your Father and Mother[*]Do Not Kill [*]Do Not Commit Adultery[*]Do Not Steal[*]Do Not Lie[*]Honor your Neighbor's Wife[*]Honor Your Neighbor's Goods [/list=1]I listed both only to note the differences in importance of some of the Commandments. It is also interesting to note that some of the simplest Commandments to follow are probably broken the most.

[chip anderson]

The one about killing says: "Thou shall not commit murder." Although many later liberal translations/iterpetations say kill. The origional text is murder. There is a great difference here.

[Joann Raytar]

It was written by an 8-year-old, Danny Dutton of Chula Vista, CA, for his third-grade homework assignment. The assignment was to explain God. Wonder if any of us could do as well?

EXPLAIN GOD

One of God's main jobs is making people. He makes them to replace the ones that die, so there will be enough people to take care of things on earth. He doesn't make grown-ups, just babies. I think because they are smaller and easier to make. That way He doesn't have to take up His valuable time teaching them to talk and walk He can just leave that to mothers and fathers.

God's second most important job is listening to prayers. An awful lot of this goes on, since some people, like preachers and things, pray at times beside bedtime. God doesn't have time to listen to the radio or TV because of this. Because He hears everything, there must be a terrible lot of noise in His ears, unless He has thought of a way to turn it off.

God sees everything and hears everything and is everywhere which keeps Him pretty busy. So you shouldn't go wasting His time by going over your Mom and Dad's head asking for something they said you couldn't have.

Atheists are people who don't believe in God. I don't think there are any in Chula Vista. At least there aren't any who come to our church.

Jesus is God's Son. He used to do all the hard work like walking on water and performing miracles and trying to teach the people who didn't want to learn about God. They finally got tired of Him preaching to them and they crucified Him. But He was good and kind, like His Father and He told His Father that they didn't know what they were doing and to forgive them and God said "O.K."

His Dad (God) appreciated everything that He had done and all His hard work on earth so He told Him He didn't have to go out on the road anymore. He could stay in heaven.

So He did. And now He helps His Dad out by listening to prayers and seeing things which are important for God to take care of and which ones He can take care of Himself without having to bother God. Like a secretary, only more important. You can pray anytime you want and they are sure to help you because they got it worked out so one of them is on duty all the time. You should always go to church on Sunday because it makes God happy, and if there's anybody you want to make happy, it's God. Don't skip church to do something you think will be more fun like going to the beach. This is wrong. And besides the sun doesn't come out at the beach until noon anyway.

If you don't believe in God, besides being an atheist, you will be very lonely, because your parents can't go everywhere with you, like to camp, but God can. It is good to know He's around you when you're scared in the dark or when you can't swim and you get thrown into real deep water by big kids.

But...you shouldn't just always think of what God can do for you. I figure God put me here and He can take me back anytime He pleases.

And...that's why I believe in God.

Keep these thoughts with you throughout the coming years:

He sends you flowers every spring and a sunrise every morning. Whenever you want to talk, He'll listen.
He could live anywhere in the universe, and He chose your heart.

[MVEYES]

I liked that.


:D Jerry

[Joann Raytar]

Originally posted by chip anderson
The one about killing says: "Thou shall not commit murder." Although many later liberal translations/iterpetations say kill. The origional text is murder. There is a great difference here.

Chip, you are correct. The way something is worded can make a world of difference.

According to Merriam-Webster:

Kill (verb)
Main Entry:
Pronunciation: 'kil Function: verb Etymology: Middle English, perhaps from (assumed) Old English cyllan; akin to Old English cwellan to kill -- more at QUELL Date: 14th century transitive senses
1 a : to deprive of life b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering
2 a : to put an end to <kill competition> b : DEFEAT, VETO <killed the amendment> c : to mark for omission; also : DELETE
3 a : to destroy the vital or essential quality of <killed the pain with drugs> b : to cause to stop <kill the motor> c : to check the flow of current through
4 : to make a markedly favorable impression on <she killed the audience>
5 : to get through uneventfully <kill time>; also : to get through (the time of a penalty) without being scored on <kill a penalty>
6 a : to cause extreme pain to b : to tire almost to the point of collapse
7 : to hit (a shot) so hard in various games that a return is impossible
8 : to consume (as a drink) totally intransitive senses
1 : to deprive one of life
2 : to make a markedly favorable impression <was dressed to kill>

Murder (verb)
Main Entry:
Function: verb Inflected Form(s): mur·dered; mur·der·ing /'m&r-d(&-)ri[ng]/ Date: 13th century transitive senses
1 : to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
2 : to slaughter wantonly : SLAY
3 a : to put an end to b : TEASE, TORMENT c : MUTILATE, MANGLE <murders French> d : to defeat badly intransitive senses : to commit murder synonym see KILL

[Homer]

Both sets of your "10 Commandments" are pretty much "edited".

What is the Jewish view of the Ten Words?

In addition to Chip's correct observation, there is nothing in the context of where the Ten Words appear (in either place) where it mentions the Sabbath as "The Lord's Day".

Besides, most Christians have to deal with the dichotomy that on one hand states that the "Old Testament" is old and the "Law" has beend done away with and then going to the Hebrew text and picking out things that support their goals. Picking out things like tithing with is a "Law" ordered principal.

On the 8-year-old.
Do you really believe that was written by an 8-year-old?? One of the theological concepts presented is that Jesus is God's helper and son - not himself God. To be a Christian, generally means the acceptance of the Jesus is God, trinitarian doctrine. This is not to say that the essay was not heart-warming and made some good points.

[Homer]

While the Bible is indeed an incredible book, the use of it is what is frustrating. BTW have you ever read the Qur'an or studied the Talmud?

The process of taking certain things out of the Book and making them important; the prioritization of concepts, is what has created divisions among the supposed civilized men of earth.
Wars have been fought over this stuff. We have more than 100 denomination of protestant christianity in this country alone not to mention flavors of catholic and various Jewish groups in addition to other religions / God concepts. They all claim to be right and most condem others for their lack of understanding.

This is where I get off. Let's find things that we can agree upon and that creates unity instead of thinking that if we get everybody converted to our way of thinking then we will have world peace and Messiah will come.

So, what does the Bible really say?

[Joann Raytar]

I kicked around online and it is interesting to note that the Hebrew 10 Commandments say "lo tirtzach, 'Do Not Murder, do not kill.'"

This is the Hebrew numbering system:

1. I am the Lord your God...
2. No other gods, including images...
3. Don't take God's name in vain...
4. Shabbat
5. Honoring parents
6. No adultery
7. No murder
8. Usually rendered Don't Steal, but you can make a very strong case that it is Don't Kidnap
9. No false witness
10. Don't covet.

Homer,
That was a typo. The Christian Commandments do list the Sabbath. For more references about the Commandments explained in one person's view:

• http://www.goarch.org/access/orthodo...mandments.html

I think there may be many different interpretations. For some reason, I remember the wording to be different from all of the above when I was a young'un.

[Darris Chambless]

Hello Homer,

"This is where I get off. Let's find things that we can agree upon and that creates unity instead of thinking that if we get everybody converted to our way of thinking then we will have world peace and Messiah will come."

After reading many of your posting I admire your tenacity regarding this subject, but I'm curious. What are you trying to find out? Are you so wanton for this mass unity that it has to be proven via text consistancy and rule of thought before you can accept any of the doctorines?

With that said I'll say this, the Bible isn't "law" but is a guideline for sensible practice. I've been reading the Bible and trying to get the meanings in it to speak to me and they have. What they mean to me is more a mental consciousness and feeling that I get that makes my belief even stronger. Do I have unanswered questions? You bet! The bible is a guideline text for how civilized people should live and an historical (albeit rather broken and perhaps embelished at certain points) record of biblical times. Personally I don't look at or read the Bible and think "book" or "text" or "stories" I look at it with admiration because of the diciplines it contains and for anyone to have followed all of these diciplines would be vitually impossible, but to try is always admirable.

Many that I've talked to think the Bible holds magical powers, or that it is a talisman of some kind with the ability to do all kinds of miraculous things. Those that believe this will have it do and be exactly that. The Bible is all things to all people good or bad.

"So, what does the Bible really say?"

That's a good question and one that you will never get an answer to. I know that you already know that. So I repeat my question to you. What are you looking for? To me your question is not unlike being a college professor that gives an assignment to his students to read some prose, then asking the question "What did it mean to you?" But it also seems as if the only way to get the answer right and get a grade is to answer it in a manner that will agree with what the prof got out of it. You're basically doing the same thing that you seem to be condemning others for.

I will answer your question from my own perspective though. "So, what does the Bible really say?" It says I now carry a great secret that only I can know. It can't be spoken, it can't be read and it can't be seen. I carry it inside me and it makes me strong. If it doesn't do the same for you or others then I am truly sorry because the feeling is awesome and indescribeable. I will admit that the Bible and religion isn't everyones cup of tea so to speak but it makes for some very good life experiences at least for myself. What it does or can do for others? Well, only they can answer those questions and theirs will be different than mine.

Take care,

Darris C.

PS. Please forgive my overly philisophical dissertation but we are talking about the Bible here ;)

[Homer]

In my books your forgiven. The "what does the Bible really say" was a retorical question first posed by Night Train - I was only repeating it.

If I had a point to make it would probably be that "What the Bible Says" is very subjective in general. What I argue against is when anyone says "the Bible says thus and so. period!"

From your very subjective last paragraph it would appear that you take most of your thought from the so-called New Testament which is only a small part of what Christians refer to as the Bible.
PS 119, for instance, seems to talk much about law, ordinances, judgments, commandments and fear in the same breath with light, truth, justice, wisdom, knowledge and love. All a part of what the Bible says ....

.... but maybe it doesn't really say all of that.

[John R]

Is it a work of historical fact or just plain fiction ?

[Darris Chambless]

Hello again Homer,

Intresting points, all of them but I need to make a couple of correction to your assertions.

"The "what does the Bible really say" was a retorical question first posed by Night Train - I was only repeating it."

One usually repeats questions over and over despite being rhetorical in order to find an answer or an arguement. You repeated it three times I believe. So you are looking for either an answer that suits you or something to base your arguements (meant for the beliefs you follow not implying you are 'arguing') on in order to give them validity. Which one is it?

"If I had a point to make it would probably be that "What the Bible Says" is very subjective in general. What I argue against is when anyone says "the Bible says thus and so. period!"

Exactly my point. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

"From your very subjective last paragraph it would appear that you take most of your thought from the so-called New Testament which is only a small part of what Christians refer to as the Bible."

Incorrect. My "subjective last paragraph" is based on fellowship and has surprisingly little to do with the Bible as a written text or the New or Old Testament. The Bible only plays a part in what it stands for, not what it says as that would in fact be very shallow of me in my opinion. But for arguement sake your verbal observation of that particular paragraph could be said to be just as subjective based on your beliefs.

"In my books your forgiven."

Not knowing what your book is I have no clue what you would be refering to. Nor do I have any knowledge of who would be forgiving me in said book. Could you give me a clue on this?

"PS 119, for instance, seems to talk much about law, ordinances, judgments, commandments and fear in the same breath with light, truth, justice, wisdom, knowledge and love. All a part of what the Bible says ...."

As to faith I came to it not by virtue of words, speach, religious law or even guilt. I came to it of my own free will with no prompting from anyone or anywhere. As I've read the Bible I have found many contridictions which is why when I read the words I'm not basing my faith or belief on the written text but what it takes in ones character to keep the faith and strengths alive for such a long time.

Let me give a little insight to Me in my belief. Let's take the Biblical story of the fish and the loaves. Do I believe that Jesus fead all those people on so little food? Honestly, no. Do I believe that he commanded enough respect and admiration that people would truly believe that he could do so? Yes, but that doesn't mean he did it in real life. Jesus carried a message with him and I agree with it. Was Jesus the son of God? Well, we are all children of God so I believe that to be true as with anyone else. Was he directly decended from God? We will know only on the day we pass from this life and since what lies beyond this life is unknown to us all we can only speculate.

For what it's worth you have many valid points for the way you believe and for what you believe, but even in that it doesn't make you right in yours or me right in mine. As I've said religion is an arguement that can never be won on any front. For histories sake I will say that the Roman Catholic church believed arguements envolving religion could be won, but on battle fields, through hired mercenaries and crusades. The Roman Catholic Church has never liked opposition and has a history of murder and blood shed to secure its position.

Take care,

Darris C.

PS. I'm reading an interesting book at present called "Holy Blood/ Holy Grail" Good stuff so far and good information.

[ioconnell]

In My opinion, the Bible is a collection of historical facts.

Bible=Biblia(greek: books)

It is a library of books,Sources come from....

• Jesus' Christian follower's, ie. the Gospel and the Epistles.
• Romans historical records, eg. Pliny's writing and in Tactius's Annals
• Jewish sources, eg. the Jewish Talmud and The Antiquities of the Jews

It is fiction some will say, well I am just and Irish bróg but the bible is guidance to over 2 billion people aroud the world.

It is fiction-The turin shroud proved that & Jesus resurection was a hoax-False

The turin Shroud was later found To have carried bacteria that has made it difficult to estimate its age using carbon dating


Pilate had placed guards at the entrance to Jesus tomb, If he went to sleep on the job, it was punishable by death. They would have undoubtedly resisted any attempt to steal the Corpse of Jesus.

If the gospel writers had wanted to convince people that the so called hoax was genuine, why would they choose a woman, Mary Magdalene to stand witness in a such a male-dominated society.

Well thats my two euro cent.