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Thread: Frame Retuns....Bad business on both sides!

  1. #1
    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Frame Retuns....Bad business on both sides!

    I was perusing another thread and saw all the complaints about a company's frame return policy. It caused me to reflect on the past, and how things have changed since I entered the industry. I probably won't make a lot of friends with my position but I would like to open an honest dialog about this subject. It will NOT be necessary to name names in fact, please do not.

    I maintain that Frame Returns is bad business. It rewards the buyer for making a mistake and takes the incentive out of selling. It is costly. It penalizes the Frame company and rep who has acted in good faith, and now suffer a loss, not only from the frame revenue but the cost of the paperwork and the scramble to get shopworn frames resold. This is ludicrous and I would applaud the frame company with enough sand to put a stop to it.

    Most of you have grown up with the "frame return" idiocy in place, but to put some perspective on it you need some background. Historically there was a time when American manufacturers owned the frame business. Companies like AO,B&L, Art Craft, Shuron, Zyloware,Universal, Liberty, Tura (I know I am forgetting many but you get the drift) who manufactured and sold their products. Very few direct sales, mostly through wholesalers, because there were very few chains in those days to volume buy.

    In the late 50's we began to hear from foreign manufacturers, Safilo and Lux de Paris were the first I remember with any clarity. Well anyway, they were trying very hard to break into what was essentially an American dominated market, so they began to find different ways to compete. One of these ways was to offer to buy back any frame that didn't sell. That was the birth of the "return" business. Now if you were a buyer, and knew that you weren't really taking much of a chance, why wouldn't you buy from the "new kids on the block". Here we are some 50 or so years later with the "return' policy still in effect, and the American manufacturers largely in shambles.

    In the old days if you bought it, you owned it. My question is why should a frame company take returns on frames that were purchased and did not move well? Why is it their responsibility?
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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  2. #2
    Independent Owner kcount's Avatar
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    A few companies have tried to remove the returns policy. Typically they back peddle after a couple of months when sales drop. I agree we would probably be better off with a zero returns policy (as long as the product cost dropped with it), but the reality is that the industry wont except it. we want our product on wheels so we can roll it back in 6 months.

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    I've heard from industry pundits that 25-35% of costs are in returns. But just try to get them (frame companies) to adopt a differing "non-warrenty price". They won't do it. Ask any of them. They complain of the costs of their returns, yet won't adopt a different price structure for "final sales". They brought this upon themselves yet won't do anything to "correct the ship".

  4. #4
    OptiWizard
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    I have conflicting opinions about returns and exchanges. We deal with companies that go both ways on the subject. I like the idea of bringing in a line, and if it doesnt work the way we and the rep intend it to, the company swaps it out for something that will. Not really penalizing either side much (time and postage) but it does bring in different product from the same company. they dont lose board space, we dont lose the inital investment.

    but this route does come at higher initial prices and higher continued prices because of the added cost of postage and time for us and the rep.


    As this does become more and more of a fashion oriented business i think its very important to keep up with trends and the latest styles/colors/shapes and if there is a way we can keep that up without constant big investments, then great.

    on the other side of the coin, there are a few companies we deal with that do not really have a return policy (aside from defects and warranty returns) those tend to be much more classic styles that have been on the board for years, and will continue to be on the board for years to come. the staples of the industry really. They cost less initially, but we do tend to have a growing pile of those laying around that arent selling. we are then faced with either deeply discounting them and bringing down the median "value" of our frame boards, donating them, or trying to wholesale them to another office / trade out with another frame company. none of them are particularly great options, but all are viable.


    In our office we try to be much more progressive and fashionable with our frames, we carry alot of things you dont find in every other office, so in many cases when looking at frame lines we either look at it as something we are willing to sit on if we have to, or something that can be traded out for fresh and new when the time comes. We carry a nice mix of both.


    with all of that being said. I dont hate the frame companies for their return policies, if we all go into these deals with the correct mindset then its a win for everyone.

  5. #5
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg, but I do think that with the prices we pay ("full wholesale") we ought to have the luxury of returns.

    As 024/7 says, a "nice" way to reduce the aftermarket problem would be to have two ways to purchase.

    A "mean" way is to have depreciating assets after seven months, and needing to jump through hoops to get a return, even for a "patient approval".

    I really think we're going to be seeing major changes in our relationship with the predominant frame manufacturer, which is going to lead to industry copycatting and differentiation.

  6. #6
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    On-line..

    All those returns get discounted out to the on-line retailers(wholesalers)
    Chris Beard
    The State of Jefferson !

    I'm a Medford man – Medford, Oregon. Up in Medford, we take our time making up our minds."

  7. #7
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Good point, Chris.

    Remember how 1-800 USED TO GET their contacts? "Diverters". It's black market.

    Now, with Luxottica's sales down and interest in online sales up, it makes sense for them to dislike selling to essilor/FramesDirect on the cheap.

    Why not dry up the returns market?

    Why not keep "unsuccessful" inventory in the possession of the original purchaser (not that they couldn't sell to the onliners themselves, but that's much less likely) to sell at clearance?

    I could deal with it, like harryJ says, but I want a deal.

  8. #8
    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    I wholeheartedly agree with Harry. Frame returns do indeed raise the cost of frames, probably by 100% If I were a frame manufacturer I would sell you frames at 50% off if you agreed not to return them. In fact I would not offer a return policy of any sort.

    You buy it - you own it. If you don't think that you can sell it - don't buy it. If you made a poor decision - tough tuba.

  9. #9
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    The concept of "Board Management", which is to say guaranteed board space in exchange for a liberal return policy, was the idea of the vendors. It got screwed up when the frame buyer at many practices was a new face every visit the reps made, leading to endless, needless churning.

    I've seen many times on OB the comment that you should buy what you know you can sell. Impossible in a dynamic, urban setting. Should I buy only proven colors? Black and tortoise every time? It helps me and the vendor if I put in the green, and red, and purple, and aqua. Without a way of putting more forward styles and colors before the buying public, we'll all end up cautious and boring. If the wild color doesn't sell, I'll return it and someone else can have a crack at it.

    These things we sell are vision-enhancing devices, to be sure, but they are also fashion pieces. Ignore that, and watch the eyewear market shrink pretty dramatically. I can't afford to take a flyer on 100 pieces of wild stuff; I want my vendors to share the risk, and therefore I give them part of the benefit. My reps are my partners, not my adversarys.

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    OptiBoard Professional OptiBoard Bronze Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson View Post


    In the old days if you bought it, you owned it. My question is why should a frame company take returns on frames that were purchased and did not move well? Why is it their responsibility?
    What rock have I been under, every frame on my boards is mine. I bought it I own it. NO ONE takes them back just because I don't want it any more. I have trouble getting credit for truely defective frames.

    I should get out more.

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