Surfacing,...need some advice.

[fjpod]

I'm thinking about setting up a surfacing operation within my practice. We have unused space, and have several licensed opticians (although none of them really has surface experience). We also have access to reasonably cheap lab assistant type personnel. We do run what I consider to be an "advanced" edging lab, and I like to think we do it well.

Like many practices, we do try to promote premium product like digital progressives and advanced AR coatings, where practical, but I would say that our use of digitals is probably 5% of our progressive work. AR is a bit more, probably 15% or so.

Let's say my annual bill for uncut surfaced work is about $100k per year.

Does it pay to invest $60k+ for new surfacing equipment such as Optek in light of the following???

1. The business is moving towards digital

2. In office AR systems are nowhere near as good as what you can get from the big boys.

Thanks in advance for opinions.

[hridgeway]

The short answer would be no. You are not going to purchase an AR coating system. If you are marketing properly your AR jobs should be becoming an ever larger percentage of your work. It is a logistical nightmare to surface lenses and send them out for AR.
Retailers have trouble when they see a high lab bill. They may think “I was trained how to make glasses in school. I can do it better and cheaper.” It would be better, when you receive a lab bill that was quite larger than last month’s, to look at the other end and consider the additional profits in the cash drawer that were made possible by this.
Many people have tried. Some do succeed.
Recently I received a personal pair of glasses from one of the largest nationwide retailers. The “optician” told me they were made in Texas. The lenses were not fined completely. The pair my wife picked up was made of polycarbonate material, with a groove that looked as if had been chewed in by a dog. No, I did not have them remade. A normal customer would never recognize the poor quality. Well perhaps on the groove job. I am more insulted than anything else. A few years back, I left the lab business, because the retail operations could not afford to pay prices sufficient to cover living wages for my employees.

[Jacqui]

If you personally don't have surfacing experience don't do it!!. It is not for amateurs. Ditto with AR. The salesmen will tell you how easy and profitable it is, but don't believe them, they lie a lot. The digital age is coming faster than most people think, what will you do with an Optek or Vista when it gets here?? The $60K price seems low for a new setup, check the lap set to see how much range it has.

[Chris Ryser]

SCHNEIDER honored by OLA with two Awards of Excellence

The big success of new Schneider’s smallest freeform and Rx generator HSC Sprint was recognized by the voting members of the Organizaition of Laboratories of America (OLA) with the „Award of Excellence“ in the category Surfacing Equipment. The new machine, launched in early 2009, enables the production of individual progressives virtually in a nutshell. The compact solution is perfect for smaller businesses that want to participate in the rapidly growing digital progressive market. And it is also a welcome addition to big labs for running free form and specialities on a dedicated HSC Sprint line.
On top of the HSC Sprint award, Schneider has been honored for the best booth of the annual OLA meeting in Washinton, D.C.

http://www.schneider-om.com/en/products.html

[Fezz]

If you personally don't have surfacing experience don't do it!!. It is not for amateurs. Ditto with AR. The salesmen will tell you how easy and profitable it is, but don't believe them, they lie a lot. The digital age is coming faster than most people think, what will you do with an Optek or Vista when it gets here?? The $60K price seems low for a new setup, check the lap set to see how much range it has.

Ditto!

I say it is not worth the hassle for the return (if any) on investment.

Fellow Optiboarder and OD, Snowmonster, does it and seems to do well. The difference with him that I see is having knowledgeable surface techs and himself that know the process. Contact him for help and advice!

[WFruit]

IF you are going to do it, spend the extra money and get a Digital generator.

Just remember, you're not just buying the equipment, you're also buying the LMS (Lab Management System) software (unless you're doing so few jobs that you can enter them all manually, but then you wouldn't need the equipment in the first place), and all the supplies (Polish, fining and polish pads (unless you go digital), chiller system, surface blocking system, the wax or alloy for the blocking system. Suddenly that $60k just went up. A lot.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, but make sure you know what you're getting into first.

If you decide to do it, I would recommend having sales reps from different equipment manufacturers come in and present their products to you. (Schneider, Satis-Loh, Gerber all come to mind, though there are others.) Also, most of them will have demo labs set up that you can visit. Once you narrow down which you want to use, you can always post here to see what experiences people have with the equipment you are considering.

As far as running the equipment, make sure the vendor trains your people till they can run and troubleshoot the equipment in their sleep. You may also want to consider hiring a couple of people with Surfacing background. Even if they don't know the specific equipment you get, knowing the theory will go a long way to solving any issues that come up.

Best of luck to you with whatever you decide.

[fjpod]

Thanks for the replies so far. Doesn't sound like it would be rewarding...

[Jacqui]

Thanks for the replies so far. Doesn't sound like it would be rewarding...

It actually helps very, very few.

[fjpod]

There must be some "break even" point though...if the practice is large enough. If $100k per year of uncut surface work is not enough, how much is?

One could say the same about an edging lab in a dispensing practice. don't do it because there are too many headaches, cost of screwing up, etc.

[harry a saake]

what bothers me the most is, you say you have cheap help available, so i assume there not highly trained, and then on top of that you want to go out and invest 60,000 plus to put in the hands of a bunch of amatuers?


AHHHHHHHHHH, CHEAP, the bane of all opticians

[optical24/7]

There must be some "break even" point though...if the practice is large enough. If $100k per year of uncut surface work is not enough, how much is?

One could say the same about an edging lab in a dispensing practice. don't do it because there are too many headaches, cost of screwing up, etc.

100k of wholesale work does not equate to 100k in savings surfacing yourself. U/C labs work on slim margins. If you cut your lab bill by 10% you'd be lucky.

Frankly, your AR usage being only 15% is pathetically low. I would invest in training staff to better sell this and other, newer technology. There are some great AR's out there now that don't cost an arm and a leg. Offer some of these in your practice if price sensitivity is discouraging purchases. Package and bundle to make these more atractive.

Lastly, as has been mentioned, the industry is changing. As more FF and DS is introduced, there will be a decline in traditional surfacing. The days to have your own surfacing lab are about over. It made sense when we only had CR (and to a lesser degree poly) to offer.

[fjpod]

what bothers me the most is, you say you have cheap help available, so i assume there not highly trained, and then on top of that you want to go out and invest 60,000 plus to put in the hands of a bunch of amatuers?


AHHHHHHHHHH, CHEAP, the bane of all opticians

As I also stated, I have four licensed, seasoned opticians.

[Judy Canty]

As I also stated, I have four licensed, seasoned opticians.

Who may or may not know how to surface lenses.

I think the pertinent point here is that the technology is changing rapidly and unless you're willing at some point to sink a lot of money into digital equipment, the law of diminishing returns will come in to bite you. Better to stick with a good independent wholesale lab who can provide you with the range of products you need and the specialty work that you may require. As an independent Optician in years past, my most valuable asset was the relationship I built with my lab, not the cheapest lab mind you, but the one who offered me the best quality, variety and service.

[HarryChiling]

If your gonna do it.

Buy quality used equipment. You can get away with a bare bones surface set up for about $25k. Use foam laps the initial investment is lower and the accuracy is greater. Find a local lab that coats and does AR cut a deal with them to do your coating for you. I always hated coating and prefered having someone else do it. Make sure on of your staff is mechanically inclined and whereever you get your equipment make sure they offer good phone support. I have a bunch of other tips but they'll have to wait till after Christmas.

[Johns]

Ditto!

I say it is not worth the hassle for the return (if any) on investment.

Fellow Optiboarder and OD, Snowmonster, does it and seems to do well. The difference with him that I see is having knowledgeable surface techs and himself that know the process. Contact him for help and advice!

I had the pleasure of visiting Braheem24's newest venture, a full service optical, which includes a complete surfacing lab with a surprisingly small footprint. I have to say, he makes it look easy, but it is not for the faint of heart.

We talked a bit about my volume, and the money I could save, but when I considered the extra personnel, as well as the time it would take, I still think that for my situation, I'd rather send out for uncuts, have them the next day, and pay a little bit more for them.

Again, I never say "never" , but at this point, I'm going to let those with more guts and know-how do the surfacing for me.

[Don Gilman]

Ever consider Fast Grind? Only about $25000.00 plus inventory

[fjpod]

Ever consider Fast Grind? Only about $25000.00 plus inventory

I have. It locks you into buying their semi-finished blanks, so the savings per job is not as good.

May be worth a second look. Thanks for the suggestion.

Anybody have experience with FastGrind?

[FVCCHRIS]

By not investing in surfacing equipment. I've been edging for over 25 years and surfacing for the last 2 years with a Gerber SGX plus unit and a couple fine and polish machines. Want to know what I think?? Oh my god, what a big mess and hassle to squeeze a few bucks more out of the old bottom line! It's nice to be able to do some things in a hurry when needed but financially we'd be better off developing a relationship with a top-notch lab and letting them deal with it. The equipment is expensive to maintain and your money and space could be used for something more useful or fun. JMHO..Chris.

[Johns]

By not investing in surfacing equipment. I've been edging for over 25 years and surfacing for the last 2 years with a Gerber SGX plus unit and a couple fine and polish machines. Want to know what I think?? Oh my god, what a big mess and hassle to squeeze a few bucks more out of the old bottom line! It's nice to be able to do some things in a hurry when needed but financially we'd be better off developing a relationship with a top-notch lab and letting them deal with it. The equipment is expensive to maintain and your money and space could be used for something more useful or fun. JMHO..Chris.

Very well put!:cheers:

[fjpod]

Again, thanks for all the responses.

[opticalman]

I am very familar with the Fast Grind system. Their semi finished lenses are very competitive. You can make a digital quality progressive for $XXX per pair. That is less expensive than traditional semi finished and you don't need to block them. Because the initial investment is minimal and you don't need experienced personnel it is very economical for an independent to do it. And there is no mess like FVCCHRIS mentioned. I know several doctors that have made the move and are extremely happy. I would call Fast Grind and get some references in your area.

[fjpod]

I am very familar with the Fast Grind system. Their semi finished lenses are very competitive. You can make a digital quality progressive for per pair. That is less expensive than traditional semi finished and you don't need to block them. Because the initial investment is minimal and you don't need experienced personnel it is very economical for an independent to do it. And there is no mess like FVCCHRIS mentioned. I know several doctors that have made the move and are extremely happy. I would call Fast Grind and get some references in your area.

If you don't mind, one or two questions???

What about the fact that you cannot do poly or hi-index???

Is it capable of doing digital progressives?? or did you say "digital quality progressives"? Can you do varilux comforts, for instance?

[braheem24]

Complete Gerber/Coburn lab…..5 year old lab closes in Texas….$24,995

Includes:

2005 Ultra Optics Mini 11,
SGX generator,
Step one wax blocker,
Step One washer,
De Blocker,
2000 laps/ tools,
3 Toric Surfacer Cylinder machines,
Innovations computer program,
2 Triumph edgers,
2 tool racks, DCE vacuum,
and more...

Usedlabs.com


Someone go steal it.

[Jacqui]

Complete Gerber/Coburn lab…..5 year old lab closes in Texas….$24,995

Includes:

2005 Ultra Optics Mini 11,
SGX generator,
Step one wax blocker,
Step One washer,
De Blocker,
2000 laps/ tools,
3 Toric Surfacer Cylinder machines,
Innovations computer program,
2 Triumph edgers,
2 tool racks, DCE vacuum,
and more...

Usedlabs.com


Someone go steal it.

You got the spare cash to loan me so that I can buy it?? He also has an Optek lab and a Vista lab for sale.

[fjpod]

Sounds like I should grab one...but why are all these people getting rid of their surface equipment??? Could it be that digital surfacing is rendering the old stuff obsolete?