A/R costs........

[FVCCHRIS]

Is it just me or is anyone else out there fed up with the never ending increases in the costs of premium A/R coats?? Can someone in the manufacturing end please chime in with some reasons why our patients should have to continually be charged more for a product which, in my opinion, should be starting to go DOWN in price these days?

[Fezz]

I'm just plain fed up!

But anyway......

I am not upset with an increase in cost as long as there is an increase in performance and value. It sure is a tough sell any way that you look at it. The look on some patient's faces when you say;

"Your lenses are $135 and the Whiz Bang coating is $140!"

***BLANK STARES***

[Didier]

With some big player taking the control of optic, that isn't surprising. Less competition=higher price.
I can tell you, doing a premium or a lower quality don't cost much more.

Small or big, We pretty much do the same thing. Only the way to market our product is different.

Many years ago, I was speaking with a technician who worked for one of these multinational lab and he told me than once, they was doing AR coating with redish residual color. They change for green residual, but to stop the demand for the old one, they double his price. For customer higher price mean better quality. They start doing 3 time more of this coating than before. They was cramp, laughing. Pure profit.

[FVCCHRIS]

I'm just plain fed up!

But anyway......

I am not upset with an increase in cost as long as there is an increase in performance and value. It sure is a tough sell any way that you look at it. The look on some patient's faces when you say;

"Your lenses are $135 and the Whiz Bang coating is $140!"

***BLANK STARES***

That's exactly what I'm talkin' about! My $500 Panasonic VCR from 10 years ago-now costs $50! A/R's have been around long enough for those prices to start dropping, not escalating!

[braheem24]

My $500 Panasonic VCR from 10 years ago-now costs $50!

Must have been a 4 head, with SP LP and EP recording!

Get the "band aid live" VHS, with hifi speakers and a sony trinitron TV, you wont believe your eyes and ears!

[scriptfiller]

[QUOTE=braheem24;320647]Must have been a 4 head, with SP LP and EP recording!

BLAST FROM THE PAST! WOW, I haven't seen/used those terms in 10+ years!


OT: YES! A/R coats from the big boys should/should have been be coming down. For crying out loud Zeiss has been doing A/R for ~75 yrs.!

[AWTECH]

One fact regarding AR is that it is a somewhat labor intensive process, with a great deal of manual inspection etc. Those costs have only been increasing over the years.

The costs of the equipment has also increased.

R&D for a new process have to amortized and with newer technologies and process being developed we are not getting the same AR we were 10 years ago.

(Hard coating improvement also factor into these costs)

[rbaker]

I would be willing to bet that the higher costs of AR, PAL's and many other ophthalmic product is the amount of re-do and warranty returns that the middleman (wholesale lab) must absorb. Probably ninty percent of the ophthalmic products are sold by ill trained sales clerks who have no knowledge of, nor interest in, the "big picture."

I recently went to a number of large chain to shop my new Rx. All of them tried to sell me a pair of PAL's despite the fact that I have been wearing FT trifocals for the past twenty years. "Give them a try - If you don't like them we will exchange them for you!" I'm sure their lab just loves supporting this form of retail selling.

If its a redo or a return it is going to cost someone money - and that someone is you.

[Johns]

Is it just me or is anyone else out there fed up with the never ending increases in the costs of premium A/R coats??

I'm with you on that...

They need to increase profits.

"What???!!! You're selling Alize and not Avance!!!!

What kind of idiot are you??!!!"

That's basically what my lab asked me.

You're right, the prices should be coming down. Even with the RD and the equipment costs factored in, they are selling more of them than ever, and if the product is as good as they market it, why would they be crediting any of them?

[gunner05]

I would be willing to bet that the higher costs of AR, PAL's and many other ophthalmic product is the amount of re-do and warranty returns that the middleman (wholesale lab) must absorb. Probably ninty percent of the ophthalmic products are sold by ill trained sales clerks who have no knowledge of, nor interest in, the "big picture."

I recently went to a number of large chain to shop my new Rx. All of them tried to sell me a pair of PAL's despite the fact that I have been wearing FT trifocals for the past twenty years. "Give them a try - If you don't like them we will exchange them for you!" I'm sure their lab just loves supporting this form of retail selling.

If its a redo or a return it is going to cost someone money - and that someone is you.

Of course the lab loves it. The lab isn't on the hook at ECCA or Walmart, as the storefront is who has to absorb the "Optician Error." In this instance, the lab gets to make another job and therefore looks better. Not sure how lux stores work, but the labs at those two don't care how many op errors there are.

[rbaker]

You have proven my point.

[Chris Ryser]

Your point is the right point.

[Jimdayok]

Here's the thought of the day: I wonder what costs for AR are overseas, where AR coating represents basically all of the lenses on patient's faces. I've seen a lot of stats but most reflect basically the same thing, its not common to see a pair of lenses without AR.

That being said, if the US market could bring their AR usage up to European and Asian levels (or non-third world global averages), your prices would significantly drop.

And, it's not the consumer making the choice not to buy AR, it's the optician and the optometrist making the choice not to sell it (or at least sell it well). I'm glad we have the chain stores to make the national statistics look not so ridiculous.

It's sort of a catch 22; now that AR costs are at this level it's hard to sell it. But, if you want your AR costs to decline, start selling it. This is the part everyone says they sell AR on almost every pair of lenses.

[gunner05]

That's probably the only good thing about walmart optical is that it is nearly impossible to get glasses without AR. Some practices are running high percentages now, as well. I know we have a minimum percentage of 85% AR with the place I work at, and I don't think any of us have a problem being well over that. Of course, there are some that I don't sell AR to because it wouldn't be in their best interest, but it's gotten pretty easy for the rest.

[fjpod]

Agreed. AR costs are at the point that it might pay to do your own AR in house, ... but not lens surfacing. Time to start a DIY AR thread?

[AWTECH]

Agreed. AR costs are at the point that it might pay to do your own AR in house, ... but not lens surfacing. Time to start a DIY AR thread?

Are you serious? Do you really want to try this?

Do you know much about AR equipment costs? Its not just AR ? it is lens preparation. You need a clean room, etc.

If you apply a polysiloxane hard coating you buy this in liters or quarts and the shelf life is approx. 90 days.

You have to keep this expensive equipment busy to justify.

I am not sure, but from memory the cost per month for a service contract on an AR system is over $1,000 per month.

[Johns]

That's probably the only good thing about walmart optical is that it is nearly impossible to get glasses without AR.

I'm not so sure about that.

Yes, everyone gets it, but there first impression of AR is now a smudgy, multi-colored coating that is difficult to clean.

We charge $25 to remove the WM AR, and when you ask people how much they paid for it, they reply, "Nothing...it was free when I bought them."

So they not only got a crud product, but they didn't pay anything for it, and now you're going to sell them your for $139?

[YrahG]

Their are numerous AR's on the market that are low cost and great quality. Our lab even uses an in house coating with the blue pad control layer that is similar to the Crizal coatings. The expensive stuff is brand name products, with AR it isn't about the material since it's almost always the same as mentioned here by Chris Ryser in many posts, it's the process and the labs ability to follow that process to the letter. That's why you can get a crap Crizal from one lab and get a super smooth great Crizal from another. Find a lab that has a good quality control and professionals in their coating rooms and use their house brand.

[Pete Hanlin]

Not surprisingly, put me in AWTECH's camp on this one, folks.

The AR you are dispensing today is nothing like the AR you were dispensing even 15 years ago (at least if you're selling a dip-dip, thermal cured product). If you're still selling a spin-coated, UV cure product you ARE basically selling what you did 15 years ago. There have been two major advancements in coating- durability & cleanability. Both of these have come on the back of a tremendous investment in both R&D and equipment (Essilor alone has two R&D facilities working full time on AR- one in Florida and one in France).

Do it yourself AR? Sure, get yourself a sputter unit and a spin coater- spend a few months figuring out how to get some usable lenses out of the system, and you're still going to have a 2nd rate coating. Good luck with that...

[FVCCHRIS]

Not surprisingly, put me in AWTECH's camp on this one, folks.

The AR you are dispensing today is nothing like the AR you were dispensing even 15 years ago (at least if you're selling a dip-dip, thermal cured product). If you're still selling a spin-coated, UV cure product you ARE basically selling what you did 15 years ago. There have been two major advancements in coating- durability & cleanability. Both of these have come on the back of a tremendous investment in both R&D and equipment (Essilor alone has two R&D facilities working full time on AR- one in Florida and one in France).

Do it yourself AR? Sure, get yourself a sputter unit and a spin coater- spend a few months figuring out how to get some usable lenses out of the system, and you're still going to have a 2nd rate coating. Good luck with that...

There is only one reason why a company would invest all that time and money on R&D-- because they believe they can recoup those costs many times over in increased sales and profits. Our practice is fighting a war with local competition on several fronts. With unemployment running over 14% EVERYONE here is looking to CUT their cost for eyeglasses not pay MORE for something. What good is A/R if it puts the complete pair out of reach of the patient? You can talk performance, quality, benefits all you want but when you tell a patient how much extra that A/R coat costs-these days it is an increasingly difficult sale. Especially when the A/R you talked the patient into buying just 2 years ago(at an additional cost from the last time) has guess what? Gone up again!! When I joined this practice over 2 years ago they were surfacing stuff and sending it for A/R coating. They were in what I called A/R HELL when I arrived, redoing many jobs after 6 months due to crappy product. I immediately told them that had to end and we now no longer surface and send for A/R. All my A/R is uncuts with either Avance of SHV from Hoya. Problems with product quality solved!! Except one thing- the continuing escalation in price. We are now to the point where we aren't talking as much about A/R as we used to. We aren't doing as many and that means I am surfacing more(profitting more) w/o A/R. Where are we headed with this??

[Johns]

We are now to the point where we aren't talking as much about A/R as we used to. We aren't doing as many and that means I am surfacing more(profitting more) w/o A/R. Where are we headed with this??

With WM patients, we ask them, "Do you want the lenses w/ or w/out the smudges?"

[YrahG]

If surfaced properly I don't see what the difference is between in house compared to ordering uncut. I know in the past I have worked with labs that don't treat outside work as well as stuff surfaced in house. In cases like the one described earlier the quality is a function of the coating facility. I must reiterate with AR quality is dependent more on the process and QC then the particular coating. I have also seen the big E buying out small in house labs, there has to be a goal in mind for doing that especially since the equipment they are purchasing is often outdated or deprecated.

[Johns]

I think that the bottom line is that as the AR usage increases, the price will go down. If not on a national level, perhaps on a personal one, that is, if you were to guarantee a hefty percentage increase in your usage, you can get a substantial discount.

[Aurelie]

If you think the rising costs of AR treatments is hard to swallow, wonder what will happen if all the independents are run out of business or bought?

[For-Life]

the only reason why there are not independents in the business and why Essilor is dominating the other lens companies, is due to complacency of Essilor's competitors