OD's getting it from all sides

[wmcdonald]

As an educator, and teacher of refraction I just want to say "thank you" to NC-OD and SCO... It is important to have open and frank discussions on this topic. I, like Laurie, can quote adnauseum many times I have been faced with opposition from ODs in many jurisdictions around the country. It is turf protection, just like the MDs attempted to do with you. I understand it and actually have a great deal of respect for the OD political machine that takes care ot it's own people. Opticians should learn from it, but unfortunately we haven't. But the world is changing, and we need people like you willing to talk to us. Opticians need to change. We are at a crossroads, and in the future we will be either a poorly trained sales clerk or advance ourselves through better education and training. Through the right training, we could go a lot further than anyone realizes, and just like ODs, it would be difficult to stop us if we could prove we could do the job! I have many good friends in Optometry, and I often have discussions about these issues with them. We understand better how each other feels about the issues when we talk frankly about them. I hope you keep talking to us. These discussions will lead to positive changes for all concerned if we discuss them in an objective manner. Thanks for your input.

[Don Lee]

Originally posted by Steve Machol
I agree with the latter part of this, but how can you say they shouldn't take offense at anything that's been said? I don't see how this follows logically.

I guess you're right. When fighting a disease some of the good tissue has to go in the treatment.

Don

[SCO2004]

Originally posted by MVEYES
You imply that you can buy your way to a right? Investment is years of work and continual learning. Because you paid to go to Optometry school does not guarantee you the right to deny others the right to improve their scope of practice. You are the quintessential example of the mindset of the politics being played to prevent Opticians from formal education! Do you realize from your education that a pair of glasses can be adjusted to effect the Rx!

I hope you grow and mature and realize there is room for all of us to practice our craft. Refraction is not a mythical process that the old wizards endow on you for your monetary gift. Basic instrumentation is learnable through less than graduate school education. Bread and butter is earned through reputation not symbols behind your name.


Jerry

I wish we could debate without getting defensive. I have professed my respect for opticians on the whole many times, but if that message is not getting across, I will say it once again. I RESPECT OPTICIANS AND THEIR CRAFT. Never have I said that there was no place for opticians to practice the craft, I firmly believe each "O" has its role.

I never meant to imply I could buy my way to a right, my point was misunderstood. I implied that I not only paid money, I paid time, commitment, sweat, tears, long nights of studying, and made many sacrifices, with many more to come, to EARN the right. I hate to see something I am working so hard for talked of as if it is not an important process. Optometry's prescriptive rights in part came out of the sheer numbers of OD's vs. MD's and what is best for the patients. There is no lack of people who will or can refract, and thus no need for opticians to expand into refracting. At least none that benefit the patient.

As far as investment being years of work and continual education, I eat macaroni and cheese for dinner and balogna sandwiches for lunch everyday. I have completed 4 years of undergraduate education, earning my BS in Biology, and will have 4 more years of education after undergrad. Please do not speak to me of investment. I am well aware.

As far as me being mature, I believe I have conducted myself well in this debate, and if you can find a personal attack, I challenge you to. Please, let us remain civil. I am merely presenting my opinion and views, and if you do not agree that is your right, and I respect that, please respect my right also.

[SCO2004]

Originally posted by Steve Machol
I'll be the first to admit that I haven't read every word of every post in this thread. Nonetheless I have read enough to see that we are repeating previous mistakes and starting to turn on each other yet once again.

Frankly I don't think NC-OD and SCO2004 present any threat to Opticianry at all. In fact, quite the opposite is true. They've both expressed great respect for Opticians in these forums and can be valuable allies if you just let them. That's why it's particularly distressing to see them accused of attitudes and beliefs they don't hold.

Let's keep the focus on facts, logic and reason and not allow emotions to cloud our interpretation of each other's words. That doesn't do anyone any good!

I agree Steve, thanks for keeping a level head!

[MVEYES]

If I get heated about a topic it usually is to draw out the truth. I think there are a lot of very good optometrist out there including NC OD who put the care of their patients above all else. I also think that NC OD's attitude about formal education for opticians is commendable and hopeful that the strife between our professions will end in all States and they will find that the right thing to do is support, legislatively, our need to have formal education and licensure. As far as SCO2004's statement, I realize he is egging us on but I feel that attitudes are easily shown even in jest and they can rub salt in a large wound.


:shiner: Jerry

[NC-OD]

Totally off the topic (we may have beat it to death anyway).....

MVEYES.....how useful have you found your MBA degree? I am returning to night school to get this degree to help get a better grip on the business side of things (and possible have a career after Optometry).

WMcdonald......I see your in Jacksonville. I spent 2 years down there that felt like 10. (I was in the U.S.M.C.). Not a bad place really...close to the beach at least.:cheers:

[Joann Raytar]

Thank you NC-OD and SCO2004 for sharing your views on the subject areas the articles brought up. I have found myself wondering about these topics before and it was actually nice to be able to get comments and opinions directly from Doctors. Not to mention that this thread may have been really boring if you both didn't join in. ;)

I think many Doctors who pass through here may feel that OptiBoard is an Optician's community instead of a community for all Eyecare Professionals. NC-OD and SCO2004 have both been really great about contributing to our discussions; especially NC-OD, who participates in many of the topics posted on OptiBoard. You guys have alot of class. :)

NC-OD:

North Carolina isn't too bad either. The days are getting longer and you folks will get to see Spring much earlier than we will up here in New England. (You had to mention beach, didn't you.)

[Dannyboy]

Frankly, the arrogance that ODs have in overlapping scope of practice seems to come with the fact that they are now optometric physicians by legislation. Legislation does not make OD smarter...that is why I truly believe more than ever that Optometry as a career choice should be a second or third choice in the list. Ophthalmology is and will continue to try to legislate not as Ophthalmology but as MDs. Numbers do count and they are a worth adversary. They have discovered that at least here in Florida. It was fun actually seeing how close the call was for them to lose their comangement (fee splitting). New York lost punctum plugs in court. NJ had the dispensing eyewear bill which prohibited them to self refer for the glasses (sponsored by PLC, I think). Wonders what is next.

As opticians gaining refraction it would be nice but I think we should legislate that opticianry should be practiced by opticians and not be delegated to unlicensed individuals. Lets focus our agenda to this mere point and I guarantee there will be less hassle and more respect from the other uneducated professions in Optics. Closing the loop, getting rid of the exception rule would be a start.

As for ODs student dreaming of putting their shingles and setting shop...think twice. It is not easy and it may be a farse what they tell you in schools. It is true thousands are underserved in low vision etc... but dont forget you have competion not only from MDs but from the poor independent opticians ( some of us are mysteriously actually making it and without refraction)


Dannyboy:shiner:

[Joann Raytar]

Originally posted by Jo in the topic starter
I would like to hear folks' opinions on the current situation that the OD's are facing. I am hoping for some thoughtful responses and not typical knee-jerk reactions to talking about the other O's

Dannyboy:

Thank you for the thoughtful, non-reflex response. :angry:

Originally posted by Laurie
... I don't think it is old grudges holding us back, it is the same story as it has always been...market share.

Laurie,

With the point of the previous post having been made, I would like to, now, disagree with you.

We all keep playing a game of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. We mention the power that the MD and OD organizations have. We mention how these organizations keep helping their members progress in their fields. Yet we Opticians seem to not want to listen and learn. Doesn't it make sense to listen and learn about how a succesful group of professionals got to where they are from those professionals? Sometimes, I just don't get our own obstinance.

[MVEYES]

My MBA in general gave me a better sense that what I had been doing business wise was right. Customer service and not always price wins. Accounting is undergraduate quality. Marketing focuses on customer service. Forecasting and Statisics were my two favorite courses. Business Principles, Finance and Ethics all were excellent courses but after being in practice for 15 years alot of the information was things I had already picked up on the job.



Jerry

[NC-OD]

Ahhh shucks, I thought I was done with this topic but I had a few more thoughts. I read an article in Review or Opt. (Or could have been Opt. Management) 1996 that was talking about this same topic. One view pro Opticians refracting and the other con.

It brought up a few points I hadn't really thought of. One point, which Pete has already mentioned was that there really is NO NEED for more refractionists. One of the best and biggest argument for Optometrist to treat pathology was that there were (and still are) a great number of places in the U.S --mostly rurul-- where there are no Ophthalmologist within 100 miles. There are (for good or bad) an OD in just about every little po-dunk town in America. Many rural people can't (or won't) drive that far for care...hence the therapeutic optometrist was born. I think that by itself had the biggest impact on our expanding scope.

Second, I hadn't really thought of the huge malpractice risk a refraction-only exam would bring. Many pt.s would assume a doctor of some sorts was doing their refraction and as soon a something was missed (ie glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy, etc --both of which can be very advanced and still have 20/20 acuity) the lawyers that advertising on t.v. would be all over you.

There is an article in Rev. of Optom every month by Jerome Sherman, O.D. who testifies in malpractice cases frequently. He discuses the actual cases he was involved in. A few months ago he talked about a routine exam on a 5 year old kid who had no problems. I think the OD was sued because he didn't do a visual field (on a 5 yr old!) who turned out to have some rare tumor if I remember correct.

My point here is that lawsuits have gotton us (or at least some of us)--OD's and OMDs' so frightened not to dilate EVERY PT. and do VF on every patient and so on. It is fairly rare to have some life threatening defect but if I missed just one, my career would be over AND I WOULD HAVE A TERRIBLE TIME LIVING WITH MYSELF.

So I'm just not sure that a allowing a refraction-only exam would be all that's it's cracked up to be.

[SCO2004]

Originally posted by MVEYES
As far as SCO2004's statement, I realize he is egging us on but I feel that attitudes are easily shown even in jest and they can rub salt in a large wound.

It has never been my intention to "egg" anybody on. I am merely presenting my opinions on the issue at hand, offering counter points, and clairfying my statments if/when they become misconstrued. I am sorry if you feel I am egging you or anybody else on, I assure you I only wish to debate the topic(s). I cannot be any clearer than this, thank you for offering your view points.

[Laurie]

Hi Jo,

The past grudges (as I mentioned earlier) are all professional, not personal. There is a big difference.

I have no personal problems with ODs. Professionally, however, I have seen them talk out of both sides of their professional mouths. How can I pretend I do not know of the political dealings around the country when I do?

I don't believe I fit into the catagory you are seemingly upset with.

Laurie

[Joann Raytar]

Originally posted by Jo

Originally posted by Laurie
... I don't think it is old grudges holding us back, it is the same story as it has always been...market share.

Laurie,

With the point of the previous post having been made, I would like to, now, disagree with you. We all keep playing a game of hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. We mention the power that the MD and OD organizations have. We mention how these organizations keep helping their members progress in their fields. Yet we Opticians seem to not want to listen and learn. Doesn't it make sense to listen and learn about how a succesful group of professionals got to where they are from those professionals?

Laurie,

By "previous post" I was pointing to the post preceeding mine which was not made by you.

I don't believe I fit into the catagory you are seemingly upset with.

I never said you were in this category. I merely said that I disagreed with your earlier statement and that I believed there are old grudges at work and the previous post was evidence of that.

I am sorry if I made you feel defensive.

[Jubilee]

As someone who is currently an optician, but working on becoming and Optometrist, I can see both sides to this arguement.

Something that has been brought up time and again in this arguement is that optometry educated then legislated..Before they sought the right to use therapeutics, they were teaching pharmacology in schools...

Before opticians can gain the right to refract or even be able to fight to keep their current rights, we have got to organized...Before refracting opticians can be taken seriously, they have to have some sort of minimum level of skill that can be proved..Either by having a special designation that you can receive upon further education and testing, or some sort of apprenticeship.. Cause do you really want the person they hired from the jewelry store refracting?

Now as has been stated before, I don't think there is a need for opticians to refract. Just the same as I don't there there is a need for OD's doing lasik...

It is funny that many opticians are so against Optometry and the rights they successfully fought for. All optoms I know are aware that the field originated from opticianry. In fact, I consider it to be more of a specialized sect of opticianry..that is the way it was in the beginning. You get there by taken the required education and clinicals required to master the craft...

So all of you that are against ODs being able to medicate cause they haven't got the MD, what makes you think that you should be able to refract when you haven't gotten the OD?

I am also wondering why it is a different set of rules for dentistry than optometry. Dentist prescribe meds, use various forms of anesthesia, and perform minor surgical procedures such as extractions...Then you got the Dentists who took an additional residency to be able to oral surgery as in cutting out wisdon teeth, removing growths, etc... And the face, including the areas these professionals work on is loaded with nerves, that when accidently cut can cause facial paralysis, drooling, and a host of other problems...should they have to go to med school to be able to medicate and perform minor surgical procedures?

Anyway....regardless of how you feel about ODs and their rights, we opticians can learn something from them...and their politicial machine...

Cassandra

[Pete Hanlin]

Doesn't it make sense to listen and learn about how a succesful group of professionals got to where they are from those professionals? Sometimes, I just don't get our own obstinance.

Good point, Jo! I think the thing that really burns most Opticians about ODs (aside from the occasional "g"OD with a condescending attitude) is jealousy over how well ODs have done as a pac in expanding their scope of practice.

By and large, Opticians and ODs work hand-in-hand (there are very few "independant" Optician-owned shops out there anymore), so it seems like it would serve all of us better to "just get along."

I don't intend to add any fuel to the fire, I just think if we all admit to the fact that our confrontations have to do with money everything would be easier! I get so tired of reading all the "defenses of the profession" speeches by MDs, ODs, and LDOs posted here. There are good and bad in every group, exceptionally trained and poorly trained in every group, and most of the individuals in each group are decent, hard working folk. Unfortunately, we are all fighting over the same group of dollars, so feuds are going to occasionally erupt.

As to the lessons we can learn from Optometry, they aren't that hard to identify...
1.) become involved in the campaigns of your local representatives
2.) contribute to the same
3.) give money to your profession's pac fund (and twist arms until everyone does)
4.) get education before you pursue legislation.
Why is that so difficult for Opticianry to comprehend?

[Laurie]

Hi Pete,

I agree. That is precisely what we (nfos, pof,etc...) are trying to do.

: )

Laurie

In fact, here is a plug for Florida's "Day at the Capitol" for all opticians...

Monday, Feb 11, 2002 in Tallahassee. Any takers? email me for more information.

: )

[MVEYES]

If I may present another argument to prevent opticians from gaining the right to refract (begins stirring the pot):

I to went to college and graduated with a BS in biology and a minor in chemistry. I was not a rich kid either and worked my butt off getting through school. 17 years later I went to graduate school and graduated while running a business.
You might feel like a lone soldier out their but there are many of us who had to struggle to get where we are. I shouldn't have said "egging on" but "stirring the pot". I hope to have some great conversations with you and see us reach an understanding. Because my opinions are probably a result of the political mud that has been slung at opticians, I do feel strongly about the issues that we are trying to achieve. I like you feel that formal education is a must to move forward. That is why I don't understand why the Ohio State Optometric Association is so strongly opposed against mandatory formal education of Opticians prior to licensing.

There is a lot of truth in what you have said and I certainly respect your right to present your opinion.

I also demand that same right. I would like your colleagues to join this group and discuss issues important to all of us. Maybe with dialogue we can understand the essence of the problems that face our professions. Good luck with school. I hope to hear from you in some of the other forums also.


:cheers: Jerry

[Joann Raytar]

That is why I don't understand why the Ohio State Optometric Association is so strongly opposed against mandatory formal education of Opticians prior to licensing.

In a day and age when everyone agrees on the importance of education in general, I don't understand why one profession would want to prohibit another from raising the bar and requiring two years of formal ed.

Out of curiosity, does Ohio have a mandatory apprenticeship program and, if it does, is there a requirement on the minimum amount of hours.

[Dannyboy]

Sorry about my previous post Jo. I was not thinking of how rude my statement was. In anycase here is another view.

Opticianry at least in Florida is very much alive but certain things should be beneficial for both ODs and opticians. I think that refracting opticians should come but not now. Opticianry laws should effectively apply to everyone. They should have a bite wether you are an LDO, OD or even an MD.

1. Close the loop on OD delegated dispensing. No more unlicensed technicians dispensing eyeglasses or fitting contact lenses. If an LDO cannot do it because the OD cannot afford it then the OD should PERSONALLY do it. No exception rules.

2. Allow LDOs to hire ODs and (yep also fire ODs).

3. Require an associates degree of any kind prior to entering into the apprenticeship program.

Dannyboy

Wicked yesterday but behaving today

[Dannyboy]

Isn't Jerome Sherman the OD who testified against another OD and the ODs establishment gave the back on him for many years?
I heard that he was prevented from speaking at national conventions for many years....

Dannyboy
:p

[MVEYES]

There is a two year OJT apprentice program. That gets back to who is doing the training. Educators who take the time to explain the course material should be the first line of education and a sixth month apprentice program in an actual dispensing setting should be the requirement before setting for board exams for licensure.




:bbg: Jerry

[Joann Raytar]

Dannyboy,

Your indiscretion is forgiven. :)

Thank you for translating your previous post into some very good points. Take CT for example. If you work in a Licensed Optical Shop you have to be a registered apprentice with the state and work under a Licensed Optician who makes sure you gain so many hours experience in various areas of fitting, manufacturing, dispensing and repairing glasses and contact lenses. You also have the option of continuing education.

Yet, if you work in an doctor's office you do not have to be apprenticed to fit, make and dispense glasses. Your time there won't count towards your license, unless it is registered as a Licensed Optical Shop, but you can work there without registering as an apprentice. Why? Doesn't it make sense that if you are working with eyewear you should be officially trained and certified in doing so?

[Joann Raytar]

Jerry,

OK, Ohio technically has some form of structured education program.

Perhaps there are a number of reasons why formal education is being opposed.[list=1][*]If Opticianry was offered as a curriculum in more colleges, more Opticians might end up in the marketplace.[*]Higher Education = Higer Pay.[*]After having to go through everything involved with gaining formal education, Opticians would want more recognition as allied health providers[/list=1]

[MVEYES]

Our battle is joined by retail merchants because they also want to pay less for a less qualified individual. In a hearing though, when our bill was in committee , the president of the Ohio State Optometric Association said in her opinion that formal education was not necessary because she had acquired her dispensing skills in less than a year.



Jerry