Edging - Redo Percentage High - What to do?

[sharpstick777]

I think its a common situation for Veterans to do things the way they were always done. You can't do that with todays A/R's. I would monitor every job through every step like it has been stated, but I would guess its not using the right pad, not letting the pad adhere, or another issue due to slick A/Rs.

I believe a 5% redo rate would even be high, but at least tolerable. Target 10% first, hold each tech accountable, and as the Veteran sees the new guy have a lower redo rate he will be more careful. Induce some competition on quality and you will get better quality.

Congrats on needing two techs.

[Kyle]

I won't bother to quote the original post again but at no point has the original poster mentioned ANYTHING about AR. You guys are missing a very obvious problem in that the "veteran" clearly has an inability to police himself to the extent that he would A: not recognize the symptoms as problematic (at best), B: not take responsibility to research the cause of those symptoms himself, C: identify and correct the cause (be it practice or mechanics) and d: take ownership of his own work to the extent that he would preclude himself as having skill enough to do A, B or C.

The "no new trick for old dog" argument is completely bunk and those offering it as justification (not that anyone is) should reexamine their own practices.

My nearly 21 years of edging may not qualify me as a "veteran" compared to some of you, but I can guarantee you my lifetime of rigorous honesty prepares me to stand up to any guy who pawns off crappy work due to an "equipment failure".

[Barry Santini]

With today's software based edging, I think it may be inapporpriate to use the term "crappy work" as being divorced from "equipment failure."

I know. I've been there when the optical encoders on all my three electronic edgers have had a brain fart or software crash.

Barry

[flexonman]

*nod* Been there too, but after this many years doing edging I caught the "issues" right away. Even shut down in house edging until it was fixed. A day or so to get a tech here is far less cumbersome than having to re order that many lenses and re edge them. I hate doing work twice.

A veteran would not pawn it off, they would address it. 5% is intolerable. In house I run less than 2% far less on most weeks. Do things right the first time, even if it does take a few extra minutes. Far less time consuming than having to go through the whole process beginning to end over and over again. maybe even worse yet, dispense something that was done wrong

[Kyle]

Barry, I think we've all been there and I don't doubt your expertise when it comes to hydrophobic coatings and newer edger technology. In other posts, I've talked extensively about the unfortunate reliance of opticians upon technological advances as a poor substitue for good old fashioned, clear-headed thinking.

I'm not attempting to call out the technician as being at fault for the slippage, if in fact that is what's happening, but rather to suggest that a responsibility must be squarely placed on the shoulders of those within a profession to be professional in every aspect. If there's a product/procedure/equipment mis-match, fine - deal with it. Only identifying a problem is the task of an investigator, who is owed no reward but for correctly laying blame. I don't think the person is being paid to be a professional finger-pointer. There are no cookies to be had for finger pointing and not doing anything about it.

[MIOPE]

Make sure your equipment is correctly calibrated before you blame the employee. Also, examine the procedures they are using. This is the only way out of the problem.

[cmhargrove]

I have done something similar, but will certainly try that exact scenario. The off-axis jobs are 90% semi-rimless.

What about training. Does anyone know if there is any in-house available?

You say 90% are semi-rimless (groove) jobs?

My tendency would be to:
1) clean the wheels. If you cut multiple materials on the machine, you could have residue on the finishing wheel that keeps it from cutting properly. Clean the wheels with a dressing stick and see if that fixes the problem (it may just be a maintenance problem).
2) use a slower edging cycle. Most edgers have a slower "safety" cycle you can use that really lowers the cutting resistance. Different edgers have different names for this cycle. Try it for a day or two on this "safety" setting and see if you still have a problem. It may take an extra 30 seconds per cycle, but it's worth it.

That's my two bits...

[Pogu]

Do you use the regular tracer that goes with it? If so I would bet on sloppy demo lens tracing. I like to think I'm pretty good at eyeballing junk, but I know there is no way I can eyeball 2* on a 50mm x 30mm scale. Dot the demo lens in the lensometer while its still mounted, just as you would when checking a finished pair. Mark over the dots with a sharpie so they don't get wiped off removing the demo. There is a plastic disk that goes over the pegs in the blocker to add 3 more pegs so you can block cut lenses, use it and block the demo w/ the last jobs trace. Use the black cross-hairs in the middle of the shape. Stick the blocked pattern in the tracing jig and you're good to go. I like to leave that demo blocked until I check out the job, that way if I have a problem(and its not in the demo blocking), I know I have the same trace later on.


Come to think of it, yesterday afternoon blocking a demo this way alerted me that the blocker need re-calibrated. The slot in the block didn't line up correctly.

[FVCCHRIS]

My edger (Kappa) when it's on Poly mode will reverse the direction the lenses are turning when it comes down to rough the lenses. Plastic mode rotates with the direction of the diamond wheels where as Poly mode will rotate the lens AGAINST the direction of the wheels. If I have a poly job I know might want to torque off axis during edging I use the plastic mode and shut the water off during most of the cycle.

[LilKim]

Holy crap, 20%???

Which way is the axis tilted? Are both lenses tilted at the same degree in the same direction? Or are the lenses tilted up towards the nasal (or temporal)? If it's the former, then it could well be slippage or equipment issues. If it's the latter, then it's sloppy trace work on the tech's part. Run a few test lenses yourself and see if you can discover the problem, then have your "vet" do the same, with you standing there watching every step, and see what happens.

If the problem follows the tech, then it's the tech. I've worked with people who ALWAYS blamed it on the equipment, but it sure was funny that when I'd trace, block and edge those same jobs, how ALL of them would turn out right! Hmmmmm......LOL

It was almost nice when those people had a day off, or called in sick. Our spoilage would be less than 2% on those days :) That made it obvious who the problem was.

[fcvc]

Thanks everyone for your input. I plan on working with the edging team (2 operators) to try and discover where we are going wrong. All of your information certainly helps.

If you thought 20% was bad, last weeks redo percentage (entire lab, not just edging) was 33%.

:drop:

[Quantrill]

When was the last time the wheels were replaced?

Also, someone else had mentioned tracing since it seems to happen on rimless jobs. That would actually be the first place to start. Some people want to 'eyeball' a rimless lens for tracing and it can be off considerably. Do what others have suggested and place the frame on the lensometer frame table and dot it up so you have a straight line to help block it correctly.

[Striderswife]

When was the last time the wheels were replaced?

Also, someone else had mentioned tracing since it seems to happen on rimless jobs. That would actually be the first place to start. Some people want to 'eyeball' a rimless lens for tracing and it can be off considerably. Do what others have suggested and place the frame on the lensometer frame table and dot it up so you have a straight line to help block it correctly.

Before I trace the lens out of a rimless frame, I put the frame (before taking out the lens, duh) on my prescription aligner and draw a line across the 180*. Laying the frame down on a progressive layout works, too, using the parallel horizontal lines across. I always trace the Right lens, and mark the nasal corner with an "N" if I'm not tracing right away.

[Barry Santini]

Interstingly, in our shop we count the "redo/makeover" percentage as a total of all eyewear and lenses made...not just lab/edging errors:

My current percentage, figured this way, is between 15% and 18% of all (Rx-based) transactions.

I'm not sure it can/will ever be lower than this, given our willingness to please clients, the Rxs that need to be redone for "whatever", and "sister or daughter" influenced frame style choices.

FWIW

Barry

[adam f sizemore]

Im a lab manager and this is what i do, first if all your equipment is correct and "on axis" then it can only be "operator error" period end of story. I tell my workers to add about a minute to every job. Whats that mean? Ill tell you if you are at any given station then take another "few seconds" to make sure everything is all lined up perfect before you commit to pushing that button. these few seconds at each station will maybe add up to about a minute per job. I run less than 4% breakages in my labs. No foolin. If people arent or wont or cant pay attention to doing the best job then its time they go make cheeseburgers instead of eyewear.

[adam f sizemore]

33% breakages last week? I would fire you first because there is no excuse for 33% NONE PERIOD! man you better get someone other than yourself in ther to check out the equipment and if the equipment is ok then what else is there to look at but human error? come on!

[Barry Santini]

The *other* thing that catches in my craw like this are the lab people (no offense meant, please) that use the term "breakage" rather than "spoilage"

When was the last time you saw a poly or other non-glass lens spoiled by breakage?

It's 1/8th diopter, not "12th". It's spoilage, not breakage.

Please.

Barry

[FullCircle]

I understand what you mean Barry, but the sound of the word "spoilage" grates on my nerves. :bbg: And the last time I saw a non-glass lens break was the higher minus CR39 job I had that came in to the blade too fast and a huge chunk broke off

And yes, it's an 1/8th of a diopter. But if a lens is reading between a +3.00 and a +3.25, it's +3.12 and that's a .12th. :bbg: Or at least that's how it was explained to me some umpteen years ago.

And we're lab people..it's like drummers....they speak their own language and so do we. LOL

[Striderswife]

And yes, it's an 1/8th of a diopter. But if a lens is reading between a +3.00 and a +3.25, it's +3.12 and that's a .12th. :bbg: Or at least that's how it was explained to me some umpteen years ago.

I think everyone has said "one twelvth" when they meant "one eighth." It's just easier to say out loud when that's practically what you're seeing on paper. But ".12" is really "twelve one-hundreths." "1/12" equals out to 0.083333. . .

It's just one of those things, like "fewer than" and "less than." It bugs some people, but most don't care.

[CME4SPECS]

I see that this thread is a week old. I hope you figured out the problem. If not, by this time next week, you gonna be broke!

[FLAOPTIGUY]

I would check the calibration on the equipment first. If all that is ok, then the problem lies with the tech. :D

[evville]

what type of edging block are you using ?The reason for this I had a problem with the persion tool verio (weco) style block it did not fit in the chuck correctly and when the tech did a retouch for size it would come out tilted or real small .These blocks worked well in the 7-e the problem was just with the kappa

[Jacqui]

The *other* thing that catches in my craw like this are the lab people (no offense meant, please) that use the term "breakage" rather than "spoilage"

I've called it "breakage" for 40+ years. Been called "breakage" since we used to do glass all day long.

When was the last time you saw a poly or other non-glass lens spoiled by breakage?

Cr-39 was about a week ago. We're smart and don't do poly.

It's 1/8th diopter, not "12th". It's spoilage, not breakage.

Was taught "12th" about 40+ years ago.

:cheers:

[Thumbs]

what type of edging block are you using ?The reason for this I had a problem with the persion tool verio (weco) style block it did not fit in the chuck correctly and when the tech did a retouch for size it would come out tilted or real small .These blocks worked well in the 7-e the problem was just with the kappa

Are you sure the chuck adaptors in the Kappa are Weco style? The Kappa usually comes with the Essilor style blocks and adaptors, the Weco style is an option.

[Wes]

I have done something similar, but will certainly try that exact scenario. The off-axis jobs are 90% semi-rimless.

What about training. Does anyone know if there is any in-house available?

How is he marking and tracing the semi rimless jobs? That is where issues can occur. I have found two ways to ensure a nice straight 180 line across the lens for tracing and a third more obvious.

1. place the frames rims to the table and a marker against the edge of the table, now draw the frame across the marker with the marker remaining stationary.
2. Place the frame in a lensometer and mark the frame, use a PD stick to dram your 180 along the markings.
3. The obvious use a pattern.

I agree with YrahG. OP stated jobs are rimless, and Y provided the solution. I use the lensometer table to dot the demos up while in the frame and then take em out and trace em. Odds on favorite since semi-rimless are by FAR the problem.
Wes