Edging - Redo Percentage High - What to do?

[fcvc]

Hey Everyone,

I was wondering if I might solicit some advice in regards to the ongoing edging issues we are incurring.

We currently have 2 edging technicians operating 2 new machines (Essilor Kappa D, and a National Optronics 7EA.) Our redo percentage is over 20% most weeks. The technician operating the Kappa has been edging for over 15 years now. His work has always been acceptable at best, although in his mind he is "the man" when it comes to edging. The technician operating the 7EA is new (about 5 weeks edging) and is doing well for someone new to it.

The Veteran (we'll call him) experiences a high number of off-axis jobs. He cuts the odd one too small, but mostly his issue is axis. He has always blamed any issues on the equipment, but with 2 brand new machines on the floor, it's time that he faced the fact that it is him.

I guess what I am wondering is if anyone has gone through something similar. I would be willing to send both technicians away for training or provide in house training if there was something available. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
FCVC

[obxeyeguy]

I would flip the 2 techs to the others edger, and see if the problem "moves" or stays at the kappa. Could in fact be the edger.

[fcvc]

I have thought about that, but our lab manager used to edge when the technician was on holidays and he never experienced the axis issues. These axis issues have followed him from one piece of equipment to the next.

It could be something as simple as the pad slipping on some jobs. Maybe he needs to ensure they are stuck hard after blocking, who knows?

[Refractingoptician.com]

I have thought about that, but our lab manager used to edge when the technician was on holidays and he never experienced the axis issues. These axis issues have followed him from one piece of equipment to the next.

It could be something as simple as the pad slipping on some jobs. Maybe he needs to ensure they are stuck hard after blocking, who knows?

Do the obvious , have the Veteran layout a job, cut and finish it and check it. Now both you and the lab manager do the same with the same RX and frame . Check the axis results of each . If two are bang on and the veteran's is off then you have the answer . It's the Vet. If all 3 are off then it is machinery , but is it the lensometer ? the blocker , or the edger ? Oh , okay fine , get the Newbie to try as well .

[fcvc]

I have done something similar, but will certainly try that exact scenario. The off-axis jobs are 90% semi-rimless.

What about training. Does anyone know if there is any in-house available?

[YrahG]

I have done something similar, but will certainly try that exact scenario. The off-axis jobs are 90% semi-rimless.

What about training. Does anyone know if there is any in-house available?

How is he marking and tracing the semi rimless jobs? That is where issues can occur. I have found two ways to ensure a nice straight 180 line across the lens for tracing and a third more obvious.

1. place the frames rims to the table and a marker against the edge of the table, now draw the frame across the marker with the marker remaining stationary.
2. Place the frame in a lensometer and mark the frame, use a PD stick to dram your 180 along the markings.
3. The obvious use a pattern.

[Mr. Finney]

We have the same exact issue with our finish tech, except we have Weco 440 edgers:drop:. His axes are off in excess of 5 degrees at least half the time. We thought maybe he had some uncorrected astigmatism, but a recent exam crushed those hopes. Also constantly makes lenses too small in metal and semi-rimless, and too big in zyl. He's been edging for at least ten years, and always on these older edgers.

[Jacqui]

I think in many cases like these that the techs are getting tired and bored. It happened to me at one point.

[FVCCHRIS]

I think in many cases like these that the techs are getting tired and bored. It happened to me at one point.

It is an easy trap to fall into, especially when there is a lack of proper checks and balances in place. You should, when possible, have someone other than the manufacturer do the final checkout before the patient is called. I too at one time had reached a point where I became too lax in my tolerances. If we aren't careful, acceptable tolerances(in our minds) can get surprisingly different from "Ansi" ones. :finger:

[Barry Santini]

Check your Kappa blocker
Check lenses after roughing, but before finishing
Are the lenses Super Hydro AR? If so, The Kappa WILL REQUIRE LEAP LSE pads, or the lenses will slip.

FWIW

Barry

[DragonLensmanWV]

Check to see if the axes are off in the same direction. i.e. if you look at them from the front, do the correct axes tilt the same way, or do they tilt in different directions? If the same way, I'd suggest hardware, if different, definitely operator.

[rbailen]

To test the edgers I take a junk lens, flexible PD rule and a sharp screwdriver. Scribe a straight line across the lens with the rule, lay it out and make sure it is blocked straight. Edge the lens and it should be on the 180. Like Barry mentioned the super slick topcoats can be tough so try those lenses and try different pads until you come up with the best configuration. Also check your blocking pressure...

Good Luck,

Rob

[Barry Santini]

Using Test lenses will not address Super Hydrophobic AR issues.

Barry

[DragonLensmanWV]

Using Test lenses will not address Super Hydrophobic AR issues.

Barry

No, but it could ascertain whether the tech is laying them out incorrectly or the edger is off axis. Once that is determined, the SH AR issues can be addressed.

[obxeyeguy]

To test the edgers I take a junk lens, flexible PD rule and a sharp screwdriver. Scribe a straight line across the lens with the rule, lay it out and make sure it is blocked straight. Edge the lens and it should be on the 180. Like Barry mentioned the super slick topcoats can be tough so try those lenses and try different pads until you come up with the best configuration. Also check your blocking pressure...

Good Luck,

Rob

The Kappa has a built in test lens shape, a daimond, built in the test system just for axis calibrating. You use a lens like you described to do it.

[Barry Santini]

The Kappa has a built in test lens shape, a daimond, built in the test system just for axis calibrating. You use a lens like you described to do it.

Using this diamond may not completely inform you about super hydrophobic slippage.

Barry

[Barry Santini]

No, but it could ascertain whether the tech is laying them out incorrectly or the edger is off axis. Once that is determined, the SH AR issues can be addressed.

Agreed.

Barry

[rbailen]

This is my way of verifying the real life "calibration"... Barry, Don't you feel this would show what pads are slipping during edging? It won't fix the problem but it would help identify pad slippage issues. If your scribe is suddenly off axis compared to your block once out of the edger.

The other thing you can do is get rid of all these sharp rectangle shaped lenses and go back to the old Lennon's... No axis problem there :o)

Rob

[Thumbs]

[QUOTE=rbailen;317875]To test the edgers I take a junk lens, flexible PD rule and a sharp screwdriver. Scribe a straight line across the lens with the rule, lay it out and make sure it is blocked straight.

Here in the states, GerberCoburn has flat square lenses with lines already scribed in them. No chance of operator error when scribing a line. Use the diamond shape barcode on you Kappa Barcode sheet to check axis. You can then trace this shape on your Horizon (if they do not have a shape for axis adjustment) to check the Horizon axis.
If you look in your Kappa technical manual it explains how to check the axis with this shape.

[Judy Canty]

This is a very interesting topic and leads me to another question with regard to one of my accounts. If the tech or whoever is edging your lenses (in my shop, it was me) experiences these errors, who eats the job?

[Barry Santini]

[QUOTE=Thumbs;317955]

To test the edgers I take a junk lens, flexible PD rule and a sharp screwdriver. Scribe a straight line across the lens with the rule, lay it out and make sure it is blocked straight.

Here in the states, GerberCoburn has flat square lenses with lines already scribed in them. No chance of operator error when scribing a line. Use the diamond shape barcode on you Kappa Barcode sheet to check axis. You can then trace this shape on your Horizon (if they do not have a shape for axis adjustment) to check the Horizon axis.
If you look in your Kappa technical manual it explains how to check the axis with this shape.

Having owned both a Gerber/Essilor Gamma & Kappa, my opinion is that the diamond shape and lined test lenses are insufficient to inform an in office edging lab of the totality of axis questions on these machines and matching blockers. In NO case was an Gerber tech, after his diamond shape and prescribed test lenses able to leave my machine in a state, after their visit, where I didn't need to *noodle* the axis to my liking.

Superhydrobic ARs are even worse.

With my new Santinelli LEX 1000, we've finally licked almost all the axis problems we've had in the first year:

1. We found that LEAP LSE tape is NOT appropriate for the Santinelli, since their blocks do not conform to the available shapes.
2. TWO software upgrades were done in the course of the year to reduce torque when edging.
3. Even with the above, any Bifocals, coated or not, are no longer done onn the LEX1000. The "lip" of the ledge of the bifocal does not marry well with adhesion and the narrow B of the Nidek blocks.

FWIW


Barry

[yks-7]

We were experiancing some of these axis probs, we eliminated most(on AR lenses) with a fuzzy pad on the minus side so there be more "grip for the chucks to hold. We have Weco star style blocks and its easy to get a "cog " off and this was most of our people breakage.

The other method we use is signing and charting breakage (all) and a weekly meeting with everybody. That way nobody feels singled out. Its amazing how quickly people breakage goes bye-bye when its being tallied
Don

[Kyle]

Hey Everyone,

I was wondering if I might solicit some advice in regards to the ongoing edging issues we are incurring.

We currently have 2 edging technicians operating 2 new machines (Essilor Kappa D, and a National Optronics 7EA.) Our redo percentage is over 20% most weeks. The technician operating the Kappa has been edging for over 15 years now. His work has always been acceptable at best, although in his mind he is "the man" when it comes to edging. The technician operating the 7EA is new (about 5 weeks edging) and is doing well for someone new to it.

The Veteran (we'll call him) experiences a high number of off-axis jobs. He cuts the odd one too small, but mostly his issue is axis. He has always blamed any issues on the equipment, but with 2 brand new machines on the floor, it's time that he faced the fact that it is him.

I guess what I am wondering is if anyone has gone through something similar. I would be willing to send both technicians away for training or provide in house training if there was something available. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
FCVC

All the chatter about checking the equipment is fine and dandy. Let's be very clear here - you have over 20% remakes and apparently this has been true for quite some time!!! YOU HAVE 20% REMAKES!!!

I don't care what kind of equipment/tracing/coating/whatever issue you have, you clearly have someone in a position of power over the practice that is unable to deliver quality work. If I saw that kind of work in my office, especially if it came from me, I'd fire myself...and have before (in a sense). I certainly understand the concern you have for what seems to be a loyal employee but how loyal can he be when, were it not for generous wholesale lab remake policies, he would literally be throwing away an astronomical amount of your business - both in COGS and in customer care (delay=loss).

There is no sense in having to police your own staff for quality when it comes to finishing on new equipment - the equipment manufacturers can do this for you. Explain the problem, have them calibrate the machine, have them (re)train both technicians and then lay down the law. If the problem continues, either find a new, less-fiscally-threatening position for your "veteran" or let the guy go peacefully.

[MIOPE]

rThis off axis problem use to show on our lab a few times in a year.
There are 4 steps where you can induce off axis.
1.- Lensometer (especially on single vision)
2.- Blocking
3.- Tracing
4.- Edging.
First i check each of this equipments and calibrate them if needed. I am sure each of us has a favorite method to check each equipments and would be great if could talk about that in another post. I has always had the problem that to check a edger you need to block a test lens and how you can be sure the blocker is not off axis? On the other hand, to check the blocker you edge a lens but am i sure the edger is on axis?
Sometimes the blocker is a little off axis an the edger too but one compensates the other. If you have a second edger and it is perfectly on axis, the blockers off axis will show on that edger and we can erroneously think the problem is that edger.
I use to check each block from time to time because they can deteriorate and do not fit perfectly on the blockers chuck. We use Weco plastic blocks and that is one of the first things we look at when sporadic off axis appears.
Old employees use to compensate minor errors on equipment and when a new worker comes in, those errors show.
Finaly, The pattern. You mentioned "The off-axis jobs are 90% semi-rimless"
I suppose those patterns are made by tracing a demolens. A off axis pattern would produce a off axis lens. Tracing a demolens is not as easy as i thought. You must develop that experience that would let you see the frame and the pattern and detect if it seems right or wrong. Some frames are more difficult that others and on the hard ones, we use to edge a test lens first.
We use Innovations and Tracer Manager show every pattern we make. Each pattern made from demolens needs to be trace more than once until you feel it is perfectly on axis. I which Innovations Tracer Manager would have a "rotate a trace" option. That would save a lot of time to me.
Also the mentioned AR problem could be a cause too. But are all the off axis lenses AR?

[Barry Santini]

It is important to know that Essilor has recently upgraded their TD2 enhanced SR coating with a superhydro characteritic.

This means that Super Hydro coatings are the issue...not just super hydro AR

FWIW

Barry