Advice needed on warranty hassles

[ilanh]

This week we lost 3 patients who were denied their "money back" on glasses that they were not happy with. The first was a lady who got her prescription here but went to Costco to get the glasses. The second and third cases were people who could not adapt to progressives and did not want to try SV or bifocals. In the last two cases we gave them 80% of their money back. In all three cases the patients left angry. I realize that losing long time patients for small amounts of money is not a winning proposition, but I too am stubborn and hate being taken advantage of.

I think that the main issue is one of miscommunication. Therefore, I would like to print out a warranty policy and hand it to every patient. I've been reluctant to do this in the past but there have been too many "misunderstandings". Here is the policy that I've been toying with. Any advice is appreciated.

WARRANTY ON FRAMES AND LENSES

EYEGLASS FRAMES
MOST FRAMES COME WITH A ONE YEAR WARRANTY AGAINST DEFECTS.
(Manufacturer has the final say in these cases).

EYEGLASS LENSES
60 DAY WARRANTY FOR ADAPTATION PROBLEMS, PRESCRIPTION ERRORS OR LENS DEFECTS. DURING THIS TIME WE WILL REDO THE LENSES AT NO CHARGE OR OFFER A STORE CREDIT.

DURING THE WARRANTY PERIOD A CLIENT MAY OPT FOR EITHER A FREE REDO, STORE CREDIT OR A REFUND OF 80% OF THE ORIGINAL COST.

PLEASE NOTE THAT AFTER 60 DAYS THERE WILL BE NO REDO’S, STORE CREDIT OR REFUNDS. NO EXCEPTIONS WILL BE MADE

Here are some questions I have:
-Is 60 days sufficient or should it be 90?
-Is it unreasonable to have the patient initial that the optician explained the warranty and handed them a copy? I'm not insisting that the patient read and understand the warranty right there and then; just need to confirm that it was discussed and that a copy was given to them.
-Is a re-stocking fee of 20% reasonable to assess patients who don't want store credit or redo? Is it too generous? Should I shelve it entirely and state upfront that there are no refunds of any kind?
-Is "No exceptions will be made" too nasty?
-Is it best to not put anything in writing and just deal with every situation on a case by case basis?
-Should the policy of the office be that the warranty was clearly explained, there are no exceptions and the doctor prefers not to be involved with any "appeals" (frankly I detest speaking to patients about these issues).

[LilKim]

You've gotta cover your butt man...that way there are no excuses to be made and it will save you both money and your reputation by being up front about your policies.

What does your lab offer for warranties? It may be beneficial to mirror their policies as best as you can, to help cover costs. If your lab offers a 90-day redo warranty, then offer it as well. You won't lose any money that way and it makes you seem more generous.

And yes, make them initial it, and give them a copy to take home!

[drk]

It's always good to get things in writing.

I think you should make the policy strict (bad cop) and make the staff nice (good cop). You can stay out of it, but the manager has to be able to appeal to a higher authority, sometimes.

For example, office manager handles the complaint, but needs to get approval from "her manager" from time to time. (That's you.)

I think 30 days is a better policy than 60. If you write it strictly, then you're set.

Saying "no exceptions" is superfluous and comes off wrong. You can tell your staff "no exceptions", however.

If your running on normal margins, I think you can afford to be generous with the refund. I'd say 100% refund for any reason within 30 days, and stick to it.

That way, if someone is a jerk about it at day 45 (and you know that WILL happen), you can say..."Hey, 100% refund--30 whole days--what more could you want?". At that point, the patient knows they're busted, and then you can go to "compromise" like credit on account, or remake or whatever.

Remember, though, present your warranty in a positive manner. Make it a "benefit", not a "warning". Saying "Gee, isn't our 30-day 100% satisfaction great" gets the same message across as "Outside 30 days, no refunds, no exceptions", but you get to say it with a smile on your face.

If you feel this is too generous, consider what it would take to add to your price structure to be happy with this arrangement, and add it in.

[obxeyeguy]

This week we lost 3 patients who were denied their "money back" on glasses that they were not happy with. The first was a lady who got her prescription here but went to Costco to get the glasses. The second and third cases were people who could not adapt to progressives and did not want to try SV or bifocals. In the last two cases we gave them 80% of their money back. In all three cases the patients left angry. I realize that losing long time patients for small amounts of money is not a winning proposition, but I too am stubborn and hate being taken advantage of.

Flame suit on, so I'm ready!

First off Doc, find the real problem. Three non-adapts in one week? The costco lady, was her problem an Rx one or a poor eyewear fit and lens choice. I always offer to trouble shoot those for free to show them the errors in their ways. The other two, what type of lenses were dispensed? Was it the best choice for the Rx? Optician error?

I guess I'm saying to fix the problem before inundating your patients with paper work, and also planting a seed about refunds.

I have not used a written warranty type paper ever, as I have almost always been able to resolve whatever issue they are having. Not always, and that's where you cut the check, and really shouldn't loose any sleep as they will do the same thing at the next place.

Does your Dentist give you a written warranty on that new crown or implant? Of course not. Don't open the door to what I feal denotes a negative to a customized product. JMHO

[Johns]

I have not used a written warranty type paper ever, as I have almost always been able to resolve whatever issue they are having.

The only place I have it written is in our advertising:

"Two years, unconditional warranty on frames. One year unconditional warranty on lenses against scractching, lifetime on lenses against breakage."

Last Saturday, we had a progressive non-adapt that we put into a SV reader. She asked if she'd get money back, and my optician replied, "No, but we won't charge you extra for the remake either." She made an appt. for her husband and left pleased.

I haven't given a refund in the last three years, although I did recently turn down a $1,000+ order that I knew would be a problem.

[chip anderson]

Odd how prescribers are so much tighter about this sort of thing than independents isn't it. Of course we all know that independents have so much higher income than ophthalmologists, they can easily afford to give full refunds.
Jeeze, doc you can make more money in a morning doing surgery than an independent optician can in a year, why be so tight?

Chip

[Jana Lewis]

This week we lost 3 patients who were denied their "money back" on glasses that they were not happy with. The first was a lady who got her prescription here but went to Costco to get the glasses. The second and third cases were people who could not adapt to progressives and did not want to try SV or bifocals. In the last two cases we gave them 80% of their money back. In all three cases the patients left angry. I realize that losing long time patients for small amounts of money is not a winning proposition, but I too am stubborn and hate being taken advantage of.

I think that the main issue is one of miscommunication. Therefore, I would like to print out a warranty policy and hand it to every patient. I've been reluctant to do this in the past but there have been too many "misunderstandings". Here is the policy that I've been toying with. Any advice is appreciated.

WARRANTY ON FRAMES AND LENSES

EYEGLASS FRAMES
MOST FRAMES COME WITH A ONE YEAR WARRANTY AGAINST DEFECTS.
(Manufacturer has the final say in these cases).

EYEGLASS LENSES
60 DAY WARRANTY FOR ADAPTATION PROBLEMS, PRESCRIPTION ERRORS OR LENS DEFECTS. DURING THIS TIME WE WILL REDO THE LENSES AT NO CHARGE OR OFFER A STORE CREDIT.

DURING THE WARRANTY PERIOD A CLIENT MAY OPT FOR EITHER A FREE REDO, STORE CREDIT OR A REFUND OF 80% OF THE ORIGINAL COST.

PLEASE NOTE THAT AFTER 60 DAYS THERE WILL BE NO REDO’S, STORE CREDIT OR REFUNDS. NO EXCEPTIONS WILL BE MADE

Here are some questions I have:
-Is 60 days sufficient or should it be 90?
-Is it unreasonable to have the patient initial that the optician explained the warranty and handed them a copy? I'm not insisting that the patient read and understand the warranty right there and then; just need to confirm that it was discussed and that a copy was given to them.
-Is a re-stocking fee of 20% reasonable to assess patients who don't want store credit or redo? Is it too generous? Should I shelve it entirely and state upfront that there are no refunds of any kind?
-Is "No exceptions will be made" too nasty?
-Is it best to not put anything in writing and just deal with every situation on a case by case basis?
-Should the policy of the office be that the warranty was clearly explained, there are no exceptions and the doctor prefers not to be involved with any "appeals" (frankly I detest speaking to patients about these issues).

Our receipt states:

No refunds, exchange store credit only. 20% restocking fee applies.

It's on the receipt, it' simple and dosen't drone on and on.

As far as frame/lens warranty's all of our opticians communicate fully with the patient so that there are no miscommunications. Generally we don't "discuss" remakes at the initial because we don't want to give the patient the expectation that something will go wrong, or does go wrong frequently.

It's all about perception really.

[Refractingoptician.com]

How many progressives do you do in a year ? How many are bad and require redos ? How many refunds are there ? Are three refunds enough to set policy against all of the ones you do in a year ?

I agree with Obexeguy, Johns & Chip

[optical24/7]

how many progressives do you do in a year ? How many are bad and require redos ? How many refunds are there ? Are three refunds enough to set policy against all of the ones you do in a year ?

I agree with obexeguy, johns & chip

+ 1

[CME4SPECS]

REFUNDS? Who the heck gives refunds? Exchange only here!
I gave a refund to a lady about 10 years ago, not because she asked for one...because I got tired of hearing her come in and whine every other day for 2 weeks! She almost cried when I took her glasses and wrote her a check. It's the only time I can remember ever giving a refund.

[obxeyeguy]

I can't remember who has a signature line of " money carefully refunded", but here's one for him.:cheers: Robert maybe??

[Striderswife]

It's not at all often I have to put in a request for a refund. I think once in the last almost two years I've been in this office. I do my best to work with the patient if they're not happy with their glasses. Occasionally, I have a patient ask me "what if I don't like them?" or "what if I can't see?" Well, duh, if they can't see, we definitely need to make it right. My response to "what if I don't like them?" is "I really do what I can to make sure you are getting what you want, before we order them." If I can tell someone is being wishy-washy, I'll stall the selection process and really try to get the patient to consider all aspects of their frames, and lens options.

A non-adapt redo we'll honor within about 90 days. The patient will know by then if it's working or not. We exchange the lenses for a different style (SV, FT) at no charge. There's no refund for the difference, and I also explain "we don't charge you for another set of lenses." It's pretty seldom that we have to do a frame re-style. I explain to the patient that this will exhaust their lens redo.

Of course, there are always exceptions. We don't have anything in writing, I think for this reason. We value our patients, and I see it as my job to make sure they can see and are comfortable with their glasses. I personally think explaining a refund/remake policy before the glasses are filled will suggest to the patient that there's the possibility that something will be wrong, or that they'll find a reason not to like their glasses. That's why I REALLY hated a commercial for one of those 1-hour places (I know you know which one) that said "don't like your glasses? Bring them back!"

[Johns]

That's why I REALLY hated a commercial for one of those 1-hour places (I know you know which one) that said "don't like your glasses? Bring them back!"

When my customers ask about those policies, I tell them that we don't have to have a policy like that because we'll take our time selecting your eyewear to make sure you'll love them before you buy them.

[CME4SPECS]

Many times I've had customers ask me "what if I don't like these frames after I've ordered them"? Well if you don't think you are going to like them...don't order them! It's pretty simple here folks, it doesn't take a frickin genius here now does it? We are opticians...the botttom of the food chain!
Don't think you are anything different than that!!!

[Chris Ryser]

Many times I've had customers ask me "what if I don't like these frames after I've ordered them"? Well if you don't think you are going to like them...don't order them! It's pretty simple here folks, it doesn't take a frickin genius here now does it? We are opticians...the botttom of the food chain!
Don't think you are anything different than that!!!

I learned the optical at a time when we would only sell a frame that was perfect for the face and lenses the customer wanted and needed, not something that he or she was talked into. There was never any returns or refunds.

[ilanh]

Flame suit on, so I'm ready!

First off Doc, find the real problem. Three non-adapts in one week? The costco lady, was her problem an Rx one or a poor eyewear fit and lens choice. I always offer to trouble shoot those for free to show them the errors in their ways. The other two, what type of lenses were dispensed? Was it the best choice for the Rx? Optician error?

I guess I'm saying to fix the problem before inundating your patients with paper work, and also planting a seed about refunds.

I have not used a written warranty type paper ever, as I have almost always been able to resolve whatever issue they are having. Not always, and that's where you cut the check, and really shouldn't loose any sleep as they will do the same thing at the next place.

Does your Dentist give you a written warranty on that new crown or implant? Of course not. Don't open the door to what I feal denotes a negative to a customized product. JMHO

I guess I'm outraged at the concept that clients can get custom-made devices, like a wedding dress, and expect to return it for a full refund. Also, I feel that even though these problems occur less than 10 times a year, they always result in irate, hostile patients which ruins my day. Those patients are so angry that they don't come back. Another issue is that many patients claim that they didn't know they could come back with a legitimate problem "because the optician never told me". I know that this is true and has probably resulted in many unhappy patients who simply never felt bold enough to come back with their glasses. If an initial is required, I'm sure the optician will need to discuss the warranty with everyone. I'm sure that discussing the warranty upfront may scare off some business or may increase the number of redo's down the road, but I feel that being honest about it will ultimately help business and increase satisfaction. The point of the warranty is not only to eliminate the egregious refund seekers; it's to make it clear to all patients that we stand by our products and that they should let us know if there's any problems. ALso, some of you have implied, "why so cheap? Just write a check". I think that's the wrong message to give to my opticians. IF they see that I'm willing to make every problem go away with writing a check, they'll consult me with every problem that pops up or will start writing checks in every difficult case. It's better that they understand that we have an iron-clad warranty that both protects patients but also prevents abuse.

[ilanh]

Here's another thought: Perhaps I could rubber stamp a simple statement on the back of the exam that each patient will initial. The wording has to be such that the patient feels that we are encouraging 100% satisfaction (and not simply cornering them into a legal point). The optician can review the warranty with them and then say, "please initial here so that the doctor can be sure that you will let us know of you are less than completely satisfied with your frames or lenses."

This paints it in a positive light and gives the patient the impression that there is quality control. Much the same as the signs at McDonald that says "Please let us know if your wait was more than 5 minutes." When people read that sign they simply understand that the management is striving for high quality. Not that problems are expected. How about something like this:

"The optician has discussed the warranty policies and I have recieved a copy. If I am less than 100% satisfied with my frames or lenses I will contact the optical shop within the warranty period."

Alternatively, I could bypass the patient simply by having a rubber stamp in the back of the note in which the optician initials that she has reviewed the warranty with the patient. Upon payment at the front desk the receptionist initials that she has actually presented the warranty to the patient. In this way, two initials will demonstrate both to me and to the future complainant that the warranty was both reviewed and handed to the patient. The receptionist will be told that if the optician has not initialled the form she should march the patient back to optical. In cases where neither the optician nor the receptionist initial the form, a full refund will be made as needed.

Either way, making sure that a patient understands their warranty achieves many purposes:

-Forcing the optician to be clear about our warranties
-Making sure the patients let us know about problems in a timely manner so that we can get our labs to do the free redo's that they deserve.
-Eliminating unreasonable requests for redos or refunds after the warranty has expired.
-Capturing those patients who have simple satisfaction issues that we can easily solve by tweaking the frames (many of these patients don't even know that they can come in)
-Demonstrating to the patient that we are above board and that our procedures are transparent.

[Johns]

I guess I'm outraged at the concept that clients can get custom-made devices, like a wedding dress, and expect to return it for a full refund.

They can't.

(Not at most places, and they certainly shouldn't be able to at yours!)


I get the feeling that some people feel the need to overcompensate with legal forms, statements, signatures, waivers, and all other sorts of documentation, rather than deal with the situation(s) head on and solve the issues before they get out of hand. Either way, you eventually might lose the customer, and having a "told you so..." in writing doesn't make it any less painful.

[chip anderson]

Of course this another good argument for the physician not to be selling his prescriptions. One could retain these patients and thier families forever and most of them will require some real medicine or surgery if followed long enough. The medicine or surgery will probably result (especially if multiplied by family and friend referrals over time) in a whole bunch more money than thier glasses purchases. Not to mention they can be unhappy with a dozen independent opticians over that time and still think you are wonderfull ophthalmologist and be singing your praises instead of telling everyone what and incompetent cheap skate you are when they are unhappy with glasses and refund policy. You do realize that the 20% you don't refund probably only amounts to about $40.00 where as the number of people that will hear of thier anger and not see you for anything in the future will be conciderable.

Chip

[Now I See]

...

[Uilleann]

...Does your Dentist give you a written warranty on that new crown or implant? Of course not. Don't open the door to what I feal denotes a negative to a customized product. JMHO

Agreed. The simple answer is that in most health care practices of ANY sort - there are NO refunds given. E-V-E-R!

This is custom product folks. And not something that you can simply sell again to any other patient. Even the frames, once worn for month(s), are questionable to re-sell. You can bet the farm that 100% of your patients would refuse an old frame if charged the same as if you were to order one new & 'pristine' from the mfr. (yes, semantics aside on the 'new from mfr. discussion a while back.)

At any rate - the biggest thing that separates you (private practice/independent optician) from the big box/chains is that you make a very high quality custom product, back it up with an extremely generous repair/replacement warranty in most cases, and have training and skills that they'll never be able to touch!

The thought of "money back" should never enter ANY patients mind for a custom product. Being so wiling to work out any problems or even to offer a credit in extreme cases is far generous enough IMHO.

I also think a federal law preventing any mechanical engineer from purchasing eyewear without first requiring them to take a minimum full 4 years of optometry schooling so that they REALLY know what they're talking about instead of only THINKING they know what they're talking about when their glasses are "wrong" should be immediately instated. :angry::bbg::p:hammer::cheers: hehehe

[Striderswife]

I also think a federal law preventing any mechanical engineer from purchasing eyewear without first requiring them to take a minimum full 4 years of optometry schooling so that they REALLY know what they're talking about instead of only THINKING they know what they're talking about when their glasses are "wrong" should be immediately instated. :angry::bbg::p:hammer::cheers: hehehe

I totally agree with everything you said above, and I especially like your last comment. Any time I have a patient that I know is some kind of engineer, I have to change my presentation tactics when fitting. It's a whole different breed of humans, yes? I had a guy one time ask me if we had a micrometer so he could measure the relative thicknesses of two different frames' eyewires. It mattered to him. :shrug:

[RT]

I also think a federal law preventing any mechanical engineer from purchasing eyewear without first requiring them to take a minimum full 4 years of optometry schooling so that they REALLY know what they're talking about instead of only THINKING they know what they're talking about when their glasses are "wrong" should be immediately instated.

Uh huh. But opticians are, of course, qualified to re-wire their edgers and modify the plumbing in the lab.

[DragonLensmanWV]

I guess I'm outraged at the concept that clients can get custom-made devices, like a wedding dress, and expect to return it for a full refund. Also, I feel that even though these problems occur less than 10 times a year, they always result in irate, hostile patients which ruins my day. Those patients are so angry that they don't come back. Another issue is that many patients claim that they didn't know they could come back with a legitimate problem "because the optician never told me". I know that this is true and has probably resulted in many unhappy patients who simply never felt bold enough to come back with their glasses. If an initial is required, I'm sure the optician will need to discuss the warranty with everyone. I'm sure that discussing the warranty upfront may scare off some business or may increase the number of redo's down the road, but I feel that being honest about it will ultimately help business and increase satisfaction. The point of the warranty is not only to eliminate the egregious refund seekers; it's to make it clear to all patients that we stand by our products and that they should let us know if there's any problems. ALso, some of you have implied, "why so cheap? Just write a check". I think that's the wrong message to give to my opticians. IF they see that I'm willing to make every problem go away with writing a check, they'll consult me with every problem that pops up or will start writing checks in every difficult case. It's better that they understand that we have an iron-clad warranty that both protects patients but also prevents abuse.

If they get angry and aren't going to come back, you should at least keep their money. If they're no longer going to be your patient, shouldn't you get compensated for dealing with the ********?

[ilanh]

Based on all the useful input I think that I will hedge my bets on this. I will make a warranty available to the patients (and post it), but I will not have any wording that says "No Cash Refunds". I will put a positive spin on it ie: "We are proud to offer 60 day exchange or store credit on lenses" or "We offer a full One Year warranty on frames" etc etc. The warranty will stress the exchange or store credit options, without specifically mentioning "No Refunds". The opticians will be encouraged to educate each patient on our warranty policies, specifically encouraging them to make sure to call within 60 days for any lens-related issues. In cases where the patient is a long-standing, loyal client we may make an exception and issue a refund minus a 20% restocking fee.