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Thread: Yet another reason to hate Davis Vision (the new scratch warrenty policy)

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    My Brain Hurts OptiBoard Bronze Supporter jpways's Avatar
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    Yet another reason to hate Davis Vision (the new scratch warrenty policy)

    I don't know if any other of you other unfortunate Davis Vision providers have noticed, but as of September 1st this notice appeared on Davis Vision's website



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    IMPORTANT NOTICE
    We are taking this opportunity to clarify Davis Vision’s policies regarding the
    replacement of scratched spectacle lenses. Davis Vision will replace, within
    one year from the original dispensing date*, spectacle lenses that have become scratched
    to a degree that significantly compromises the cosmetic appearance or optical
    performance of the lens, ONLY if the Scratch Resistance option was selected and paid by
    the patient at the time of the original order or if the option is covered in full within the
    group’s benefit design. It is important to note that this policy applies to ALL lens types
    and materials. Therefore, any of your Davis Vision patients who have a history of
    mishandling their eyeglasses or are concerned about the possibility of developing
    scratches on the surfaces of their lenses should be informed of the potential benefit of
    selecting the Scratch Resistance option and, if selected, the applicable charge should be
    collected from the patient. Whenever the Scratch Resistance option is selected and the
    applicable charge collected on any lens type or material at the time of the original order,
    your office will receive the corresponding additional dispensing fee (surfee) from Davis
    Vision. No surfee will apply if the Scratch Resistance option is covered in full under the
    group’s benefit design. Only if the Scratch Resistance option was selected in the original
    order and paid for by the patient or if the option is covered in full within the group’s
    benefit design will Davis Vision replace the lenses due to scratches within one year from
    the original dispensing date.
    * Dispensing date is assumed to be 10 days after the date shipped from the Davis Vision laboratory.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    So, I just called up Davis Vision and here is the response I got: Unless, the patients pays for a Scratch Resistant Coating or purchases an Ultra ARC (Avance, Teflon, etc.) they do not have a scratch coat warranty. Doesn't matter what lens material or lens style the patient is purchasing: Polycarbonate, Trivex, mid-index, 1.60, 1.67, photochromic lenses, or progressive lenses, are no longer warranted for scratches, unless they purchase an SRC or an Ultra ARC. This is already on top of the fact that is the patient is purchasing an Ultra ARC they only have a 1 time in 1 year scratch coat, irregardless of the fact that the manufacturers of those coatings say that their coatings have a 2 year scratch coat.

    I really wish we could drop them, but we are located in Western Pennsylvania, so most patients that have Highmark (which is most of our patients) have Davis and we live too close to a GM plant for our comfort to risk dropping Davis Vision.
    Last edited by jpways; 09-14-2009 at 06:53 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Bronze Supporter LENNY's Avatar
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    Did the rep told you that you can sell a SR on Poly or HI?????

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    My Brain Hurts OptiBoard Bronze Supporter jpways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LENNY View Post
    Did the rep told you that you can sell a SR on Poly or HI?????
    What I was told was that they changed to programing on their ordering system to allowing you to order SRC unless you are ordering an Ultra ARC, I have yet to test this, but I have to believe it's true. But also, if you read the notice it says that you HAVE to charge for an SRC if the patient wants a warrenty

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    irregardless
    This is not a correct word, as the proper word is regardless.:bbg:

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    So what they are saying is that the patient is purchasing a scratch warranty since the scratch coat is (but non warranted) already on some of the lenses. If you put it to the patient that way (since that is what it is) what is the issue?

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Bronze Supporter LENNY's Avatar
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    I think I love Davis for doing this!
    I am sick of people coming in on 364 day and changing their poly lenses for free! Ofcourse they did not spend a dime at the store!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cocoisland58 View Post
    So what they are saying is that the patient is purchasing a scratch warranty since the scratch coat is (but non warranted) already on some of the lenses. If you put it to the patient that way (since that is what it is) what is the issue?
    You guys/gals are funny. So let me think this thru......, OK, Mr Jones, your lenses have a scratch ressitant coating that is not guaranted unless you pay me another $XXX and we still do nothing extra on your lens? Your "naked" un-paid for SRC will surely not perform unless you cough up another $XXX. You guys kill me! You actually do this stuff and sleep at night?

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    Bad address email on file LilKim's Avatar
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    Can't really say that I blame Davis...everyone's trying to minimize their losses, and returns for scratch warranty are the worst...Just adjust your return policy to match Davis'! If patients want to treat their glasses like crap, let them have to pay for their stupidity.

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    I have on occasion charged for SRC on Poly in order to bring the price up to what CR 39 with SRC would be. Of course our "profit" is about the same on poly if billed this way or billed as it should be as compared to CR -39 + SRC.
    In other words, Poly increased cost marked up by the same amount is about the same as CR-39 +SRC's mark-up. Have found myself in the position when rushed of having written the price of poly (retail) as a CR-39 price, so adding the SRC cost is a method of catching up.

    Not really sticking it to the patient, just getting the price to where it needs to be for a profit.

    Chip

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Heck, there's a place here in town that charges extra for both UV protection and scratch coat on Transitions.
    DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
    "There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."

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    Rising Star OptiBoard Silver Supporter walleye's Avatar
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    Davis Visison

    I wonder if this will apply to the welfare groups like Keystone Mercy and the Chip program? The one program lets them have 2 pairs with poly at no charge. So if they ruin the one they can get another pair for nothing. The kids especially scratch their eyewear. This I think is another money making scheme for Davis. Transitions and progressives for example are already warranted by any wholesale lab.
    I have never,ever,seen a Davis plan that includes scratch coating. They charge $15.00 for SV and $25 for bifocals to scratch cote.

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    The Man, The Myth, The Legend OptiBoard Gold Supporter Fezz's Avatar
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    When you play with SNAKES.....you are bound to get bit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by obxeyeguy View Post
    You guys/gals are funny. So let me think this thru......, OK, Mr Jones, your lenses have a scratch ressitant coating that is not guaranted unless you pay me another $XXX and we still do nothing extra on your lens

    No, it's more like "Mr. Jones, your lenses have a scratch resistant coating that your insurance company won't guarantee unless you purchase their "warranty". Sorry, I don't take Davis, do they have their own lab like Spectera and VSP?

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    When you are in the ordering screen and order lets just say poly, and then you click on the scratch coating, guess what? When you hit submit order and error message comes up saying that this lens material already comes with scratch coating. So what now? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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    Pomposity! Spexvet's Avatar
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    I don't participate with Davis, but doesn't this allow the dispenser to make more money without being the bad guy? Either the patient buys the warranty up front, and you make a little money, or if they scratch their lenses and you replace them at your regular retail for a reasonable profit. And Davis is to blame - it's their rules.
    ...Just ask me...

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    I am sorry, I dont see what the big deal is.

    Any lab I have ever worked with, required you to have either purchased a "premium lens" (ie something other than basic plastic SV or lined) or a scratch coat for the basic lenses to have a warranty. To me, this is exactly what Davis is stating. NO warranty for those who don't purchase anything other than the basic materials.

    Also, you should look at the different plans. Some, such as FedEx specifically state in their plan materials that they have an UNCONDITIONAL 1 YR warranty as long as they have materials to return.

    If the plan covers SRC, Poly, etc.. then you don't have to charge the patient. The company that is supplying the insurance coverage has it covered.

    I would make sure you talk to a supervisor in asking for clarification on this plan. I know in the past, like when they changed forms for FedEx and it stated $10 under both the frame and lens copays, that we got conflicting answers. Some reps told us that it was ONE copay of $10 for either or both frame and lens, and others told us it was $10 each. Our patients who called an asked got differing answers as well. One reason why I always document who I talk to over there and confirm with a supervisor if it doesn't sound right..
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    Where I work I was told this was retroactive to September 1st of last year. That means any of our patients that got hi index or poly lenses from Davis in the last year won't have any warranty of their lenses because we never sell scratch coat on these lenses. We also never sell scratch coat on progressives so I guess they don't have a warranty, either.

    What I don't understand is that it is retroactive to last year. Is this right? How can they do it if it is?

    We had one patient complain and we told him to call Davis. Davis okayed the remake.

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    Rising Star OptiBoard Silver Supporter walleye's Avatar
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    Davis Vision

    Any add-ons that we charge a patient for Davis is money deducted by Davis from what they owe the provider. So the $15/SV and the $25/BIF scratch cote cost is a Davis profit collected by the provider FOR Davis.
    They do 6,000 jobs per day. Say half (3,000)take the scratch cote and say it would average $20/ea. between SV and BIF So that's $60,000/day, $300,000/wk and $15million per year additional profit for them-even though poly, transition, and progressives are covered by manufacturers and most wholesale labs for scratch coating.
    The big shots in NY must sit around their conference tables and hatch these schemes. It is blatantly unfair to patients except for regular CR-39 plastic. The redo rate for scratches is probably under 10%.

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    My Brain Hurts OptiBoard Bronze Supporter jpways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jubilee View Post
    I am sorry, I dont see what the big deal is.

    Any lab I have ever worked with, required you to have either purchased a "premium lens" (ie something other than basic plastic SV or lined) or a scratch coat for the basic lenses to have a warranty. To me, this is exactly what Davis is stating. NO warranty for those who don't purchase anything other than the basic materials.
    We're no longer talking about basic vs. premium materials if you read the notice that Davis Vision posted on the website it says:

    "It is important to note that this policy applies to ALL lens types
    and materials." (lines 7-8 of the main paragraph)

    Now, so far our office has talked to 3 different people at Davis and we have gotten the same answer all 3 times. In each of those calls we asked and we were told that this applies to all materials and styles both basic and premium, unless they purchase a SRC or an Ultra ARC. Right now this is our only lab that we use that does not honor any of the manufacturers' warrenties. And while I do not know if the Davis Vision lab systems warrenty agreements are any different from lab, but I know the methos that labs get reimbursed for remakes and with the likelihood of a person to claim a warrenty its not like they will lose little if any money (here and there they might but over a year I'd be shocked).


    Also, you should look at the different plans. Some, such as FedEx specifically state in their plan materials that they have an UNCONDITIONAL 1 YR warranty as long as they have materials to return.

    If the plan covers SRC, Poly, etc.. then you don't have to charge the patient. The company that is supplying the insurance coverage has it covered.
    This is still true, if the plan covers the warrenty, then they won't have a copay so it would be be marked on the Service record form as Included (or another way to say this is they are purchasing the option for a $0 copay). Which, when I look at the FedEx service record form, is exactly what it says.

    The only new thing I have to add to this is that in our office's third conversation with Davis we asked how many times we can remake the glasses under this warrenty, and let me just say you'll want to review the Warrenty Information page on the Davis Vision provider website, because they've rewritten that as well. (And no I will not put that in this post because it's not for public consumption)
    Last edited by jpways; 09-15-2009 at 02:08 PM.

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    My Brain Hurts OptiBoard Bronze Supporter jpways's Avatar
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    This was an accidental double post, so could an admistrator please delete this entry.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Jubilee's Avatar
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    I have only 4 plans that the Ultra ARC is even an option on. Many plans, my patients will even call to see if they can be upgraded to is (wanting the Advance coating) and are told they can not purchase it.

    I process a fair amount of lenses through Davis vision. I have not yet had them refuse a patient warranty remake on something less than a year old.
    "Some believe in destiny, and some believe in fate. But I believe that happiness is something we create."-Something More by Sugarland

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    Bad address email on file LilKim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    Any add-ons that we charge a patient for Davis is money deducted by Davis from what they owe the provider. So the $15/SV and the $25/BIF scratch cote cost is a Davis profit collected by the provider FOR Davis.
    They do 6,000 jobs per day. Say half (3,000)take the scratch cote and say it would average $20/ea. between SV and BIF So that's $60,000/day, $300,000/wk and $15million per year additional profit for them-even though poly, transition, and progressives are covered by manufacturers and most wholesale labs for scratch coating.
    The big shots in NY must sit around their conference tables and hatch these schemes. It is blatantly unfair to patients except for regular CR-39 plastic. The redo rate for scratches is probably under 10%.
    Just because Davis is asking for additional $15 for a scratch coat, does in no way mean it's pure profit on their end. There are shipping costs, employee wages, taxes, equipment maintenance--all of these are not considered "profit". Davis is big, and the larger you are, the bigger your expenses. They would be lucky to get $5 in profit per scratch coat. It's probably more like $3. And many lens companies only offer partial credit on their returned, edged lenses (some, not at all! You have to pull teeth to get credit), further cutting into a lab's profits.

    Do you really fault a business for trying to cut its costs? What would you do in their place?

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    So is this retroactive to last September or does it start with new jobs sold starting this month?

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    Rising Star OptiBoard Silver Supporter walleye's Avatar
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    DAvis Vision

    In reply to LilKim. What percentage of finished jobs do you think Davis has to remake in one year because of scratches?
    This policy could not have been retroactive since we have replaced scratched lenses all year especially for little kids. Our remake rate is probably 5% for scratched lenses.

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    Bad address email on file LilKim's Avatar
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    In reply to LilKim. What percentage of finished jobs do you think Davis has to remake in one year because of scratches?
    This policy could not have been retroactive since we have replaced scratched lenses all year especially for little kids. Our remake rate is probably 5% for scratched lenses.
    Judging by the lenses that were returned to our lab for scratch coat warranties, about 1/8th to 1/4 came back, often within the last few days of the warranty expiration. Not only did I work in the lab as well as customer service, but I also did the input for the returns and warranties. The highest percentage were scratch coat warranties and non-adapts. We lost a lot of money because of it, especially those customers who purchased a scratch coat warranty on high-end lenses like progressives, we'd always end up having to eat the cost of the new pair. A $20 s/c warranty just doesn't cover the cost of an $80 pair of lenses ($80 on the lab's cost), especially when the lens manufacturers raise their prices on a semi-annual basis. A lab needs to recoup their losses in some way.

    I've never dealt with Davis, but speak from experience working in a lab.

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