Coating Problems

[chip anderson]

I am having a lot of AR coating problems. Much, much more than before both with Zeiss and Essilors premium coatings. Problem seems to occur in a day or two but may wait months to acutally occur.
One could blame it on our hot Summers in Miss, but not all are subjected to heat. Had one today that only worn inside and for morning walks after which patient wears contact and glasses are left inside air conditioned house (yes we have airconditioning and indoor toilets in MS despite rumors to the contrary).
If this stuf isn't able to cope with the South, why is it sold here?

Chip:hammer:

[For-Life]

Who is applying the coating? Is it the same lab?

[Jacqui]

If you're getting it from the same lab, that could be your problem.

[For-Life]

You may have a point there Jacqui

[chip anderson]

Actually I use three labs, one Essilor, one Zeiss, one Hoya. Have same problem with each, seems to be a lot more later.

Chip

[Kyle]

Chip - is it crazing or actually peeling?

Have you noticed the problem on predominantly zyl or metal mounts?

[chip anderson]

Crazing, pealing, wavy lines, the whole gammet.

Chip

[scriptfiller]

Are these complete Rx's or uncuts? If uncut, has anything in the lab enviroment changes, solvents employees etc?

I did have a pair of CR-39 trans Avance' that got left in the car and small wavy lines formed in the central part of the lense, it gets hot here in FL too.

[Kyle]

OK, now metal or zyl frames? I'll explain where I'm going with this: if metal, I have no suggestion other than environmental issues; if plastic, I'll guess the issue has to do with adjusting the frame - maybe not you or even in your office, but too many McTicians out there would drop those high-end AR coated lenses into a salt pan without a second thought all for the sake of adjusting the frame "like a pro". You just cannot do this and expect the coating to hold and I frankly don't care what Colts or anyone else says about it - lenses aren't intended to hold up to that kind of heat.

And Chip, I know you are no McTician. You've schooled me far too many times. ;)

[hipoptical]

More ??:
Same types of lenses you've always used, or did you switch?
Do you edge in house? If so, did you change something?
Pressures, pads, blocking or de-blocking method, sizing, cleaning?

Keep in mind, isolated incidents are most often resolved with nearby solutions. (If you're the only one with the problem, you are likely also the solution.)

[chip anderson]

My own personal glasses (Zeiss individuals) did this in one day after being left in the car while I wore my shades fishing. The point is I'm selling this stuff at a premium price and people are going to come back to an blame me for selling them such delicate stuff.
My patients are real people and do real activities like go to ball games, fish, etc. with thier shades being worn and their high priced working or cosmetic glasses in the car. They are not going to accept a lecture on you should know better, or it's your fault. They are not going to be very happy with the excuse that they are warrantied and we'll have to send them back to the lab for 10 days to get a new pair which may also do this again.

Chip:angry:

[For-Life]

My own personal glasses (Zeiss individuals) did this in one day after being left in the car while I wore my shades fishing. The point is I'm selling this stuff at a premium price and people are going to come back to an blame me for selling them such delicate stuff.
My patients are real people and do real activities like go to ball games, fish, etc. with thier shades being worn and their high priced working or cosmetic glasses in the car. They are not going to accept a lecture on you should know better, or it's your fault. They are not going to be very happy with the excuse that they are warrantied and we'll have to send them back to the lab for 10 days to get a new pair which may also do this again.

Chip:angry:

Maybe not lecture them, but instead offer solutions, like cooler parts of the car. The windshield is what does them in

[ABDI]

The frames could be puting too much stress on the lenses it self (lens too big). Might want to take the lenses out of the frame before doing any adjustments. I've worked with opticians that put the frame in the frame heater with out taking out the lenses and causes crazing sometimes right after other times takes a day or two before start getting the waves. Also when lenses are bent while trying to pop 'em into the frame causes crazing. Probably from the person thats doing the mounting and adjustments.

[chip anderson]

For-Life:
You are in Canada, I am in Mississippi. There is no cool or even cooler part of the car in Summer here. Inside temps can reach over 300 degrees when parked.
It was worse when I was in Texas, I saw many a fine German car (it's cold there too) have the entire headliner turn loose while on display in a dealer's lot.

Chip

[For-Life]

For-Life:
You are in Canada, I am in Mississippi. There is no cool or even cooler part of the car in Summer here. Inside temps can reach over 300 degrees when parked.
It was worse when I was in Texas, I saw many a fine German car (it's cold there too) have the entire headliner turn loose while on display in a dealer's lot.

Chip

What is the hottest degree farhenheit you get? Because there are days in the summer that we do get over 100.

[Chris Ryser]

My own personal glasses (Zeiss individuals) did this in one day after being left in the car while I wore my shades fishing. The point is I'm selling this stuff at a premium price and people are going to come back to an blame me for selling them such delicate stuff.

My patients are real people and do real activities like go to ball games, fish, etc. with thier shades being worn and their high priced working or cosmetic glasses in the car. They are not going to accept a lecture on you should know better, or it's your fault. ...................................
Chip:angry:

Chip...............being you age and expirience you should know better and I think you do.

If you sell AR coatings you should warn your customers in simple terms, at point of sale, that an AR coating on a lens, is a hard glass surface while the lens underneath is a much softer material.

Both are fused together and both react different when exposed to a extreme hot or cold environment. Their expansion or contraction coeficcient is not the same and they may get damaged if left in a car that was air-conditioned when driving but know sits parked and heat up 100F in a matter of minutes.
Same goes in winter, heated car left parked in sub-zero weather, cools of fast and does the same to your glasses.

Dont blame the labs, they are doing the same job on lens no 1, as well as lens No 195.
Blame yourself for not having warned your customers of the danger of extreme heat or cold when purchasing AR coated lenses at a premium price.

The AR lab will first need to be able to recognize crazing (either before it leaves the lab or after it returns from the field), and where on the lens it has occurred. Many equipment and lens manufacturers can supply training and even testing services to allow the AR lab to detect crazing. A common mistake is to interpret an AR lens with multiple scratches to be a crazed lens. A key to detection and identification is having the correct lighting, inspection background, and most importantly, trained eyes.

Here is a good article dealing with AR crrazing:

http://www.thevisioncouncil.org/ecp/content_3464.cfm

[hipoptical]

I think there is something being overlooked here...
Chip is no novice. This problem is new. If it was just hot cars, then he would have reported this problem years ago, I would think.

We need to know the answers to the questions about changes in Chip's office, then proceed to finding out about changes in the labs he orders from. We've all had situations before that were solved by undoing a seemingly (and forgotten) minor change in procedure. Could be an in-office issue, could be a lab issue, could be a series of unfortunate events, unrelated and totally coincidental.

[Fezz]

I think there is something being overlooked here...
Chip is no novice.

Are you suggesting that CHIP is the problem?

Or are you implying that a Chip Problem, may be causing a problem?

Are you saying that Chip may have a medical condition that is making everything look like a *Coating Problem*?

Should we be looking at things like:

* Optic Disc Hypoplasia
* Bilateral Miosis
* Pseudohypopyn
* Reis-Bucklers Dystrophy
* Cuneiform Cataract
* Christmas Tree Cataract
* Congenital Syphilis

What is going on here?



;):cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::D

[hipoptical]

Are you suggesting that CHIP is the problem?

Or are you implying that a Chip Problem, may be causing a problem?

Are you saying that Chip may have a medical condition that is making everything look like a *Coating Problem*?

Should we be looking at things like:

* Optic Disc Hypoplasia
* Bilateral Miosis
* Pseudohypopyn
* Reis-Bucklers Dystrophy
* Cuneiform Cataract
* Christmas Tree Cataract
* Congenital Syphilis

What is going on here?



;):cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::D

That's funny! (But just to clarify: I think Chip's problem is that he doesn't know where the problem stems from, which presents a problem in finding a solution. Therefore, he has a problem identifying the problem and the problem is, that asking us to help- well, that's a whole new problem in and of itself.)

[Fezz]

That's funny! (But just to clarify: I think Chip's problem is that he doesn't know where the problem stems from, which presents a problem in finding a solution. Therefore, he has a problem identifying the problem and the problem is, that asking us to help- well, that's a whole new problem in and of itself.)

So...................................what you are saying is that the problem = is the problem?

[Chris Ryser]

We need to know the answers to the questions about changes in Chip's office, then proceed to finding out about changes in the labs he orders from. We've all had situations before that were solved by undoing a seemingly (and forgotten) minor change in procedure. Could be an in-office issue, could be a lab issue, could be a series of unfortunate events, unrelated and totally coincidental.

Hip............in Canada that would be enough reason to start a Royal Enquiry into the doings of AR coatings, with offical public hearings in every Province.......and would end with the conclusion as stated in my post.

On the other hand you can still put your AR on glass and they will last + 30 years.

Why stir the beer when all is clear...................

...................:cheers::cheers:.................

[sandeepgoodbole]

My Dear Dr. Watson, 1.Remember/ search records and Mark the date which onwards the problems appeared for each source. 2. Report the dates to sources. Ask them to chek the changes made in processes n Materials i> Polymer of Lens, ii> Hard coats, iii >A.R. Compounds. Enquire for Some metal oxide introduced in making of lenses, not used earlier. 3. Put a thermometer along with the lens and a Micro Zoom VDO camera spying on the sneaking crazes.. 4.Mark the users for their level of tolarance.Exrept for the Crazy for the AR, suggest them to shift to Hard Coat as now a days Coz of Global Warming n Meltdowns, the ARs arent lasting.4. For AR crazy, order a chipest chinese pair as care taker. Put it in the frame and request the Crazy to use it untill source decoat recoats. Thanks. Your Crazy,Sherlock Holmes.

[Kyle]

Fezz, you crack me up!

Chip, I'm in Georgia and we don't get too much cooler here than you guys. The only problem I'm having this summer is that my primary lab IS the problem - their uncuts are coming back fine but any finished work involving AR, and ESPECIALLY drill work is about 60-70% likely to have scratches (and tons of them). They've been read the Riot Act and are now scrambling to keep my business. I'm curious to know what lab you're using.

I'm a 39yo emmetrope with an accommodative abundance (at least OD) so I see things better than they do, perhaps. As you know, scratches lead to eventual crazing/peeling and fortunately I can catch these problems for now. My LDO colleague, though, is 62 and can't see Jack Didley. He'd pass a job with a Grand Canyon of a scratch and not even know it. Are these jobs you're finishing in-house or could they be lab-finished? Dem lab folk may jus b'gettin' long in da toof!

[LilKim]

It's not just the windshield where the AR crazes--it's those stupid fold down drawer-thingies (where you're supposed to store your glasses!) above the rearview mirror that get just as hot, being right under the metal roof! I had a pair of stock Teflon's that I didn't think would have a problem being in those little compartments. Wrong! Crazed all to hell. I'd love Teflon if it wasn't such a crappy coating. I dig that Zeiss blue.

[THE MEB]

One item I haven't noticed yet is ultra sonic cleaner. If you are using that on AR lenses, a large quantity will craze. I doubt if Chip is using the ultrasonic cleaner on his AR'S but if nothing else is adding up, thought I'd throw my two cents worth in.