tran/phoenix crazing

[countryeyes]

i was wondering if anyone else out there has had issues with transition phoenix lens excessively crazing on them. over the past year our practice has seen more and more crazing on lenses that are the brand name phoenix material combined with the brand name transitions.
with about 90% of all of our lens sells in the phoenix material this problem has caused us to switch from phoenix to trivex or triology and to stay away from the transitions and substituting it with another brand of photochromatic lens. These switches have helped and we are not seeing the crazed lenses that we were experiencing with the combination of phoenix and transition lenses. has anyone else out there had a similar experience with phoenix transition lens crazing? and if so have you got any idea as to why this is happening?

[Fezz]

I have had some issues as well. I am working with some manufactures to get some answers.

[jefe]

Have you ever had an issue with Phoenix/Trivex crazing ever in any other form?

[Chris Ryser]

The source of crazing is udsually not the lens brand or the material, it is how it has been handled by the lab or the patient.
There can be dozens of reasons for crazing and should be investigated.

[Fezz]

Have you ever had an issue with Phoenix/Trivex crazing ever in any other form?

I can not recall any. But, my ale soaked brain sometimes forgets!

Most of the issues that I have seen have been on Phoenix w/ Transitions. I am in contact with some folks that I hope can shed some light on this!

[countryeyes]

Most of the issues that I have seen have been on Phoenix w/ Transitions. I am in contact with some folks that I hope can shed some light on this![/QUOTE]

We have been trying to get some answers as well from our previous lab - a Hoya lab, but as of yet no real answers. If we hear anything i will let you know. Any luck on your end?

[hipoptical]

Have you tried the Trilogy Transitions? The Hoya product and the Younger product are different. We don't sell Transitions (or any photochromic) that much because of the poor heat performance, but we do occasionally. We haven't seen any problems with it yet. Are you seeing the lens craze before dispensing, or after being worn for a while?

[Fezz]

Are you seeing the lens craze before dispensing, or after being worn for a while?

All of my issues have been after being worn for a while.

[countryeyes]

Have you tried the Trilogy Transitions? The Hoya product and the Younger product are different. We don't sell Transitions (or any photochromic) that much because of the poor heat performance, but we do occasionally. We haven't seen any problems with it yet. Are you seeing the lens craze before dispensing, or after being worn for a while?

most of ours happen after dispense but there seems to be no set standard as far as how old the lenses are before we are made aware of the crazing lenses. Some are a year from original dispense, some a few months, and we have had a handful that have crazed within weeks from being dispensed.
We have switched over to Trivex/ Trilogy lenses with some other brand of photochromatic and we have not seen the crazing problem.

[Fezz]

I had another that came in last week that I got pictures of. I will to try post. My last two were about 2 or 3 years old. Some of been less, some may have been more.

[hipoptical]

We have switched over to Trivex/ Trilogy lenses with some other brand of photochromatic and we have not seen the crazing problem.

What other brand? Is it the Aris from Excel? That's the only other one I know of in that kind of material.
If all these are crazing after dispensing, then it must be a Transitions issue with the Phoenix material, unless anyone else is seeing this with the Younger brand also. It could be (I suppose) an issue with the Phoenix material with the Transitions. In the first case, it's a Transitions problem, in the second case, it's a Hoya problem. Let the pointing-fingers begin!

[Fezz]

Here is a picture of what I am seeing with these lenses.

[hipoptical]

:drop:
Yep, that would be crazing. Haven't seen that on the Younger Transitions for sure. I thought y'all were talking about the kind of crazing that can barely be seen. That thing looks like a cat got after it. I'm guessing it's a Hoya issue.

[Fezz]

:drop:
That thing looks like a cat got after it. I'm guessing it's a Hoya issue.

Cat Scratch Fever!

This picture is with the lens held down, with light bouncing off of the "cracks".

They are not nearly as visible looking straight at them.

[Chris Ryser]

Looks like the coating is crazed. The harder the coating the more the difference in expansion under hot conditions. The cracks are nice in line one after the other could also be some tension from the frame besides the heat, or both together. Maybe not the fault of the lens.

[hipoptical]

Looks like the coating is crazed. The harder the coating the more the difference in expansion under hot conditions. The cracks are nice in line one after the other could also be some tension from the frame besides the heat, or both together. Maybe not the fault of the lens.

But they said the problem was only on Phoenix brand Trivex when combined with Transitions brand photochromic, and it was many pair. If it was frame tension, the problem would arise in other lenses as well. This has to be a lens issue, right? Or a conspiracy...

[countryeyes]

This has to be a lens issue, right? Or a conspiracy...

I assure you that "conspiracy" was not my reason for starting this thread. Our practice used to soley deal with Hoya products and we were pretty impressed with the outcome, until this crazing problem started happening. We have now switched to a Legends lab and we steer clear of combining phoenix with transistions and the crazing issue has stopped.
The lenses that were crazing looked exactly like the photo posted earlier in this thread and we were not getting any clear answers as to why it was happening when we contacted the Hoya lab we used to order from; nor were we getting any answers from Transitions. Got tired of the run around so i posted my problem on this site to see if a) other people were expirencing the problem, and b) if they had gotten any answers as to why it was happening.
So if it is some sort of "conspiracy" then i am just a gog in the wheel not the hub.

[hipoptical]

("Conspiracy" was a joke....)
OK, back to our regularly scheduled program...

[countryeyes]

("Conspiracy" was a joke....)
OK, back to our regularly scheduled program...

yea, thought it was but i have a difficult time writting sarcasm. and now for something completely different...

[hcjilson]

There are too many variables to be precise in identifying the source of the crazing. Who is doing the finishwork on these lenses. What are the frames involved. Does it happen equally with zyl and metal, drilled or groved?. Are these lenses AR coated and with what coating.What is the temperature that these lenses have been stored in ?(pardon preposition) It may get warm on the dashboard of a pickup in Texas.....or on Cape Cod for that matter. I have no idea of what could be causing the problem, but with a 90% failure rate, I can promise you its something you or your customers are doing to the product. Even the people who have had past problems haven't had 90% failure rates...

[countryeyes]

There are too many variables to be precise in identifying the source of the crazing. Who is doing the finishwork on these lenses. What are the frames involved. Does it happen equally with zyl and metal, drilled or groved?. Are these lenses AR coated and with what coating.What is the temperature that these lenses have been stored in ?(pardon preposition) It may get warm on the dashboard of a pickup in Texas.....or on Cape Cod for that matter. I have no idea of what could be causing the problem, but with a 90% failure rate, I can promise you its something youor your customers are doing to the product. Even the people who have had past problems haven't had 90% failure rates...

yes, i know that there are a lot of variables to consider concering the lens crazing. I was hoping that thorugh this forum that i could eliminate a few of them. out of the multiple variables there was one thing in common with the crazed lens we were receiving back from our customers and that was they were pheonix brand lenses with the transistion brand photochromatic. some had Ar some did not, some were SV some wer PAL but all were pheonix transistions.

as far as the 90% failure rate, eithet that was a miscommunication on my part or a misunderstanding on your part. we used to deal strictly with Hoya lens products and about 90% of our mid index sales were pheonix lenses and if the pt wanted photochromatic lenses I would say that about 90% of those would be transistion brand. When we started noticing the crazing problem we deceided to try different combinations of lens with different brands of photochromatic and as of yet any lens that were not the pheonix brand with the transistion brand name photochromatic have not returned to us crazed. Now not all pheonix/transistions have come back to us crazed but the lenses that do just so happen to be pheonix/ transistion lenses. I did not intend to communicate that we were expirencing a 90% failure rate.

[chip anderson]

Looks just like my new super zoomo transitions, AR coated individuals after last week-end. Also notice after this occurred I can see loads of stress in the mounting (full rimmed glssses).
My wife's 167's had coating failure for the second time in about an 18 month period. Sent them back to Cumberland Nashville and was told, "That's just the way that 167 does after about a year."

What's with that?

Chip

[hipoptical]

... was told, "That's just the way that 167 does after about a year."

What's with that?

Chip

Poor business practices, ignorance, stupidity. That's the kind of statement one makes when one knows not what one is doing.

[hcjilson]

Please pardon the missed communication. With the amount we sometimes have to read we get into the habit of speed reading which does not always lend itself well to a complete understanding !

Correct me if I am wrong. Phoenix is trivex. Trivex is trivex, is trivex, regardless of it's trade name. Ergo if the problem were transitions on trivex, it would have appeared in all trivex transitions products, not just one manufacturer. We then have to look at how the lenses were finished and how they were glazed.Again, whether it occurs in zyl as well as metal frames, and the type of mounting should be considered as well. Again were there any similarities in how the lenses were treated by the customer. Was the Crazing to which you refer similar to the photo found in the fezzmeister's post? ( to me they looked as if they were caused by an oversized lens in a metal frame) You mentioned that it occured in all focii-SV, FT, and progressive products so we can eliminate the series as a problem.

In the time I've been selling Transitions (from the beginning back in the early 90's when they were revolutionary but bogus!) I have seen an occasional Transitions failure but they are very rare to me. Of the ones I've seen, some were caused by my overzealous and injudicious use of heat.....;but even then, a very rare occasion. Sorry I can't help any more than that. Perhaps Jim Schafer will see this thread and comment as to what fabricaton errors might be the cause, but I heard he was going to be taking some time off so he may not see this.
Sorry to be of little help on this problem. hj

[Fezz]

Correct me if I am wrong. Phoenix is trivex. Trivex is trivex, is trivex, regardless of it's trade name. . hj

It is my understanding that they are different beasts. The abbe value is different for Phoenix brand than other Trivex manufacturers.