Thickness issues with Shamir Autograph Attitude

**gmanlook** · 08-05-2009, 11:08 AM

Just wondering how many of you use the Shamir Autograph Attitude. We do lots of custom wraps and have had issues with this lens and the compensations...according to our compensations it calls for approximately .50 BI....but what I received is 1.23 BI...this is on a
+1.00-2.25x10 +2.50
+.50-1.50x153 +2.50
This is a 63 eye (I know you will have some thickness) right eye nasaly calipers at 4.8 with the thinnest point at 1.9
What I found out is that the lab has no way to override the compensation or reduce it. We will no longer use it for the plus lenses--> minus lenses are good and the regular Autograph also having no issues with. Thanks Gary:cheers:

**OptiMon** · 08-05-2009, 12:22 PM

I have had similar issues with the Shamir Attitude. Speaking with the lab manager I was told that the software is written for minus Rx's but not compensated very well for plus Rx's. Thickness was always the issue.

RT · 08-05-2009, 02:02 PM

Shouldn't the primary question be how the patient sees out them?

**gmanlook** · 08-05-2009, 02:33 PM

The issue is with the compensation--too much BI prism on plus lenses. If I use any other free-form lens the compensation is 1/2 of the attitude. The patients don't have issues with seeing..they have issues with thickness. Gary:cheers:

**OptiMon** · 08-07-2009, 10:11 AM

I would have to agree with gmanlook, even though they see well, thickness has Always been one of the biggest issues in our industry. I have some customers who sacrifice thickness for optics, but most want the thinnest.

The other issue I see over and over with the Attitude is high myopes don't see as well through the OC, but love the peripheral vision. If I add -.25 to the Sphere, the compensated Rx works best.

**OCP** · 08-07-2009, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by OptiMon

I would have to agree with gmanlook, even though they see well, thickness has Always been one of the biggest issues in our industry. I have some customers who sacrifice thickness for optics, but most want the thinnest.

The other issue I see over and over with the Attitude is high myopes don't see as well through the OC, but love the peripheral vision. If I add -.25 to the Sphere, the compensated Rx works best.

As (a small) wholesaler of Shamir lenses we sell about 25 pairs a day of Attitude lenses these days. I don´t see this issue you mention at all?
Some times the client cant use this very complicated lenses, but in the last 6 month we have had only 2 pairs with problem (same as other complicated lenses), so I´m thinking, maybe it´s a production error? We get all our lenses from Portugal and the quality from Shamir Europe is VERY high.

**gmanlook** · 08-10-2009, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by OCP

As (a small) wholesaler of Shamir lenses we sell about 25 pairs a day of Attitude lenses these days. I don´t see this issue you mention at all?
Some times the client cant use this very complicated lenses, but in the last 6 month we have had only 2 pairs with problem (same as other complicated lenses), so I´m thinking, maybe it´s a production error? We get all our lenses from Portugal and the quality from Shamir Europe is VERY high.

We use the Attitude lens all the time and take my word for it...the compensation for BI prism is off the charts (on plus lenses)...this isn't somthing we have just noticed....it has been there since they started making the lens. Gary

**Craig** · 08-11-2009, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by RT

Shouldn't the primary question be how the patient sees out them?

Proper optics should also have the lens as thin as possible; why would you want a heavier, thicker lens for no optical benefit?
The combination of the optics and overall thickness/weight is part of the total package. I deliver the best combination possible and expect the software to be able to do the same!

Shamir has jsut changed the comp. to increase the total add power, but the excess prism compenstion is still an issue. They allso don't allow me to know the secret parameters being used in the Attitude lenses or over-ride their default numbers.
I am trying to get the info from Shamir as i write.

Craig

**Laurie** · 08-11-2009, 06:56 PM

Hello 'Boarders,

Hope you are all enjoying your summer so far,

In regard to the thickness question for plus Attitudes, while I am not an expert in manufacture, a tidbit from a response to your question is below:

the PD which will also affect thickness. The 1.9 edge can be reduced depending on what the lab has set for the minimum edge thickness. A plus lens goes off of the minimum edge and that will vary by what the lab uses for the minimum depending on the frame type. Was this RX ordered with the frame trace or were box measurements used. If box measurements were used then the frame was calculated on a rectangle with 90 degree corners and we know that the odds of this being true or very slim.

The prism amount seems too many to be more than some of the other programs use but we have checked and rechecked these results. This particular RX with the amount of astigmatism and the angle of the astigmatism causes the prismatic amount to seem too much. Also since we use the total RX along with a more exacting frame wrap and pantoscopic tilt the prismatic amount is more not a generic prism amount.

also,

It is possible that generic programs on the market have small errors and also do not base their calculations on all parameters and are not based on an aspheric back and are only calculated using powers and not the actual effect of the compensated RX or the actual curves on the lens.

Hope this helps,

**OCP** · 08-12-2009, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Laurie

Hello 'Boarders,

Hope you are all enjoying your summer so far,

In regard to the thickness question for plus Attitudes, while I am not an expert in manufacture, a tidbit from a response to your question is below:

the PD which will also affect thickness. The 1.9 edge can be reduced depending on what the lab has set for the minimum edge thickness. A plus lens goes off of the minimum edge and that will vary by what the lab uses for the minimum depending on the frame type. Was this RX ordered with the frame trace or were box measurements used. If box measurements were used then the frame was calculated on a rectangle with 90 degree corners and we know that the odds of this being true or very slim.

The prism amount seems too many to be more than some of the other programs use but we have checked and rechecked these results. This particular RX with the amount of astigmatism and the angle of the astigmatism causes the prismatic amount to seem too much. Also since we use the total RX along with a more exacting frame wrap and pantoscopic tilt the prismatic amount is more not a generic prism amount.

also,

It is possible that generic programs on the market have small errors and also do not base their calculations on all parameters and are not based on an aspheric back and are only calculated using powers and not the actual effect of the compensated RX or the actual curves on the lens.

Hope this helps,

Hi Laurie

I actually agree with you.
Many times Attitude lenses are in a very high diametre (very often above 85 mm) an in +2,00 that matters. And if ordered with box measure only it will only get worse.
We see a lot of very thin positive Attitude lenses as well (from Europe).