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Thread: Stupid question

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    Question Stupid question

    Just wondering,what happens when you purchase a pair of glasses online and they get sat on or knocked out of adjustment?Does that company fly an optician out to you to adjust them.And secondly, what will happen if I get into an accident be it car,fall and etc.and get hurt severely due to the the RX being wrong or certain measurements taken incorrectly by the person at the BIG BOX store?Would the internet company be liable or the person that took my measurements at the BIG BOX store?I am just at a lost.

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    Barticus Prime - Optibot opticianbart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loratz View Post
    Just wondering,what happens when you purchase a pair of glasses online and they get sat on or knocked out of adjustment?Does that company fly an optician out to you to adjust them.

    they generally tell you that most opticians in stores will adjust/repair them for free and that you should just go there. ( Which to my mind makes me think you should just go there to begin with - but as an optician who believes that brick and mortar stores give better service generally, I may be a bit bias.)
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    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Big Box???

    Quote Originally Posted by loratz View Post
    Just wondering,what happens when you purchase a pair of glasses online and they get sat on or knocked out of adjustment?Does that company fly an optician out to you to adjust them.And secondly, what will happen if I get into an accident be it car,fall and etc.and get hurt severely due to the the RX being wrong or certain measurements taken incorrectly by the person at the BIG BOX store?Would the internet company be liable or the person that took my measurements at the BIG BOX store?I am just at a lost.
    I don't know of any BIG BOX stores that willingly give out measurements to patients seeking to buy online glasses. The only places that do that are the independents smart enough to charge for the service. I understand that you despise the BIG BOX store and have little respect for the people that must work there...
    I am a full time lab guy, and I part time as a licensed dispenser at a big box to supplement my income. I am not the enemy, I promise you. Yes, I'd rather do my part time as/at an independent, but with my lab hours being M-F, 7-4, and my situation being what it is, well, I'm working with whats left. This is the time to make a killing in the economy, and I'm putting every nickel I can into stocks.
    Let me say something here. There are crap "opticians" everywhere, not just in chains. I've seen garbage glasses from Doctor's offices as often as chains. I don't usually speak up about the chain bashing on this board, but this one just irked me. Not everyone who works in Big Boxes or chains is incompetent, and not everyone in Doc's offices is perfect. Caveat; I've never run across an Independent Optician who wasn't top notch!
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by wss2020 View Post
    I don't know of any BIG BOX stores that willingly give out measurements to patients seeking to buy online glasses. The only places that do that are the independents smart enough to charge for the service. I understand that you despise the BIG BOX store and have little respect for the people that must work there...
    I am a full time lab guy, and I part time as a licensed dispenser at a big box to supplement my income. I am not the enemy, I promise you. Yes, I'd rather do my part time as/at an independent, but with my lab hours being M-F, 7-4, and my situation being what it is, well, I'm working with whats left. This is the time to make a killing in the economy, and I'm putting every nickel I can into stocks.
    Let me say something here. There are crap "opticians" everywhere, not just in chains. I've seen garbage glasses from Doctor's offices as often as chains. I don't usually speak up about the chain bashing on this board, but this one just irked me. Not everyone who works in Big Boxes or chains is incompetent, and not everyone in Doc's offices is perfect. Caveat; I've never run across an Independent Optician who wasn't top notch!
    :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

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    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Merci beaucoup..

    Arigato
    xie xie
    gracias
    salamat
    and
    thank you for the encouragement mr. fezz
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    ws2020,I am so happy for you and all of your hard work,but I was not implying not to bash BIG BOX stores.For you see, I had a pt.come to my practice for an exam and afterwards he saw me for glasses.Well,the pt.proceeds to look at my frames and found some that he liked and follows that up with questions about premium no-lines(digital).So finally he wants me to write the frames and the best no-line(DIGITAL) down for him so he could think about it,OK.So I took his PD and seg. ht.on my order form and the different types of frames with all of those seg.hts.Then I get a call from him asking me to give him his PD measurment so he could buy them online I replied,NO due to liability issues and followed it up with "If you go somewhere else I would not tell them what your getting those measurements for and if you did they would probably not give it to you" he got furious and told me "we will see about that".So I get a call from him 2 hours later and tells me he's at a BIG BOX store at that time and said they took my measurement for free and told them what he was intending to do.So never the less, there is always a first for everything.The main word is 'LIABILTY' as in "I hope you have optician liability insurance".And yes, you are absolutly right independent practices are at fault to some degree but,in most part it is much easier to go to the BIG BOX because people already know no questions would be asked,like you said your in it for the money.

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    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Who isn't in it for the money?

    loratz,
    Would you go to work every day just to be charitable? We are all in it to some extent or other for the money. We need it to survive in our society. Money is not my sole motivator. Bottom line is, I like what I do, and I'm good at it. I want to be one of the very best someday. Hence, the advanced certifications, the growing library of books, and my continuing presence on this and other boards. Working both lab and dispensing makes me a much better optician. If I were solely interested in $$ I would not be in this field.
    I in no way support online glasses, and will not provide measurements for said glasses, and it has nothing to do with liability. I think it's plain wrong, and I want nothing to do with them. I do not adjust or troubleshoot them anymore either. Not that I did more than a couple. I suggest to the person that they may want to take them back to where they got them from to repair/adjust them. Sorry you were bamboozled by a patient just looking to use your professional services so that he could get cheap glasses.
    It's been said before, and here it is. We have wrapped the cost of our services, our professional skills, up in the frame and lenses so that the public does not perceive them to be of value, just another commodity to be bought or sold. Lawyers don't give away free legal advice. Doctors and mechanics don't diagnose for free. Professors certainly dont profess for free. Consultants don't consult for free. Why do opticians consult, advise, and perform measurements, while not charging? Are we not worth our services? I would suggest that those in positions to do something about it (optician owned independents, this is you) should reduce their lens and frame prices and begin charging for their services. Total cost could remain the same, but then patients might appreciate what they're getting more.
    My 2 cents, Wes
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

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    Point well taken.As for your question,I of course have to make money to stay open.I to worked at a Big Box at one point and time and what they told me to do about letting glasses go to the pt.with the RX and measurements being way off to protect their bottom line from remakes forced me to leave.I then decided to open my own place and do things the right way.Considering we are in the same state (LICENSED) the "LIABILITY question at the start of this thread is still something of a concern.I heard that someone in NC (the optician and the company he worked for) was sued (and yes I heard the optician was sued personally)for internet glasses they had purchased just because the optician took the measurements and was somehow held liable.I of course am insured but I trying to find out information to back up what I have heard and if this type situation has occurred in any other state.I had several people(OPTICIANS) I know in NC back this hearsay up.Just trying to make opticians aware if this is the case about internet glasses.Sorry, no details on what occurred about the person who sued and what happened.

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    Amen!

    Excellent post, Wes. There are excellent Opticians in many different practice settings, and we should recognize that.


    Quote Originally Posted by wss2020 View Post
    I don't know of any BIG BOX stores that willingly give out measurements to patients seeking to buy online glasses. The only places that do that are the independents smart enough to charge for the service. I understand that you despise the BIG BOX store and have little respect for the people that must work there...
    I am a full time lab guy, and I part time as a licensed dispenser at a big box to supplement my income. I am not the enemy, I promise you. Yes, I'd rather do my part time as/at an independent, but with my lab hours being M-F, 7-4, and my situation being what it is, well, I'm working with whats left. This is the time to make a killing in the economy, and I'm putting every nickel I can into stocks.
    Let me say something here. There are crap "opticians" everywhere, not just in chains. I've seen garbage glasses from Doctor's offices as often as chains. I don't usually speak up about the chain bashing on this board, but this one just irked me. Not everyone who works in Big Boxes or chains is incompetent, and not everyone in Doc's offices is perfect. Caveat; I've never run across an Independent Optician who wasn't top notch!

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    We charge $20.00 for PD. Then we inform the customer that we will not be held responsible for eyewear purchased elsewhere.

    We ask if the person purchased their specs. from us, if they did not they are charged a rate in direct relation to the difficulty of repair/adjustment.
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    Underemployed Genius Jacqui's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfiller View Post
    We charge $20.00 for PD.
    I have sign on the wall at the lab that says:

    $35.00 To measure PD
    $50.00 To help select a frame
    $50.00 To verify RX
    $65.00 To fit and adjust frame.

    My time and expertise is worth something.

    :cheers: :D :cheers:

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    Not too sure that a prescriber owned establishment can either charge for PD or have a disclaimer "not resposible for eyewear purchased elsewhere" as this sounds a little like intimidation to force patients to buy in house.

    Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Not too sure that a prescriber owned establishment can either charge for PD or have a disclaimer "not resposible for eyewear purchased elsewhere" as this sounds a little like intimidation to force patients to buy in house.

    Chip
    Not only that, your putting yourself in a position where you had something to do with the internet glasses to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wss2020 View Post
    loratz,
    Would you go to work every day just to be charitable? We are all in it to some extent or other for the money. We need it to survive in our society. Money is not my sole motivator. Bottom line is, I like what I do, and I'm good at it. I want to be one of the very best someday. Hence, the advanced certifications, the growing library of books, and my continuing presence on this and other boards. Working both lab and dispensing makes me a much better optician. If I were solely interested in $$ I would not be in this field.
    I in no way support online glasses, and will not provide measurements for said glasses, and it has nothing to do with liability. I think it's plain wrong, and I want nothing to do with them. I do not adjust or troubleshoot them anymore either. Not that I did more than a couple. I suggest to the person that they may want to take them back to where they got them from to repair/adjust them. Sorry you were bamboozled by a patient just looking to use your professional services so that he could get cheap glasses.
    It's been said before, and here it is. We have wrapped the cost of our services, our professional skills, up in the frame and lenses so that the public does not perceive them to be of value, just another commodity to be bought or sold. Lawyers don't give away free legal advice. Doctors and mechanics don't diagnose for free. Professors certainly dont profess for free. Consultants don't consult for free. Why do opticians consult, advise, and perform measurements, while not charging? Are we not worth our services? I would suggest that those in positions to do something about it (optician owned independents, this is you) should reduce their lens and frame prices and begin charging for their services. Total cost could remain the same, but then patients might appreciate what they're getting more.
    My 2 cents, Wes
    I like this guy ^^^. He's dead on.

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    Let's do the "doomsday scenario"

    What would happen if online glasses got serious traction?

    Remember the big issue is separation of professional service from materials purchase.

    Some consumers would forgo professional services, but we know from experience that services are eventually needed. Optical professionals need to be there to provide services.

    There is nothing inheirently wrong with parts + labor pricing. It's done in many fields. It's unfortunate that optical has not done that traditionally.

    In theory, if one were to separate labor costs and overhead out of the cost of glasses, the glasses supply prices would look amazingly lower.

    Realize that in licensed states, the law mandates a certain level of professional service in order to operate. Services cannot be excluded in a sale of glasses...that can only occur in unregulated states and the internet.

    My concern is that eventually vision plans will offer the option for online buying themselves. (If they haven't thought of it by now, we just tipped them off.) VSP owns Marchon and Altair, and you-know-who owns you-know-who. What's to keep "Vision Plan" from offering an additional new option to the member...shop from "Vision Plan"'s website.

    The member orders Vision Plan's proprietary frames direct and "at a big savings" (big win for them), and the frame will ship to "Vision Plan"'s laboratory (VSP owns a couple as well as Luxottica) for an in-house job. (Eyemed currently offers providers a 10% discount if we have the jobs done by a fully-owned Essilor lab.)

    Wholesale laboratories that currently do vision plan work would be cut out.

    Providers would provide dispensing for a fee.

    This model practically exists with Spectera/Optum Vision albeit lower tech...they provide the frames (I believe), the lowest bidder lab gets the work (Crown, I believe), and the dispenser gets a (ridiculously insulting) dispensing fee (some tips in restaurants are higher).

    And, as Walmart workers know, online contact lenses are part of the Walmart optical experience. Unbeknown to most, Eyemed has it's own CL replacement service that in essence circumvents the provider. It's not if, but when.

    Any way you look at it, the real value is professional service, and opticianry must position itself for this.

    How?
    Last edited by Jeffrey Kiener OD; 07-29-2009 at 03:05 PM.

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    I'll offer a few ideas:
    1. The "experience". Although many will get coffee at Speedway, I just can't compare it to a coffee house. (When I had hair) the difference between GreatClips and a salon was huge. Same with eating at Panera vs. eating at Arby's.

    2. The "services". I've never failed to be impressed with the cosmetologists I run across. They always offer some aesthetic expertise that people find important. I also have a "thing" for the cosmeticians in the entryway of the better department stores...the white coats, tall chairs, color analyses, samples, etc. That's powerful stuff, IMO.

    I think warranties fall into the service category. Lots of people shop where they have trust. This "satisfaction guaranteed" mentality is important.

    3. The "expertise". It seems to me that there should be at least one go-to expert in any optical...someone who knows how to interpret Rx's and design lenses, someone who can do dispensings, trouble-shooting and all the technical stuff. This cannot be underplayed in any optical. If you have certification, you'd better have it on a billboard in the optical.

    What else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Kiener OD View Post
    What would happen if online glasses got serious traction?

    Remember the big issue is separation of professional service from materials purchase.

    Some consumers would forgo professional services, but we know from experience that services are eventually needed. Optical professionals need to be there to provide services.

    There is nothing inheirently wrong with parts + labor pricing. It's done in many fields. It's unfortunate that optical has not done that traditionally.

    In theory, if one were to separate labor costs and overhead out of the cost of glasses, the glasses supply prices would look amazingly lower.

    Realize that in licensed states, the law mandates a certain level of professional service in order to operate. Services cannot be excluded in a sale of glasses...that can only occur in unregulated states and the internet.

    My concern is that eventually vision plans will offer the option for online buying themselves. (If they haven't thought of it by now, we just tipped them off.) VSP owns Marchon and Altair, and you-know-who owns you-know-who. What's to keep "Vision Plan" from offering an additional new option to the member...shop from "Vision Plan"'s website.

    The member orders Vision Plan's proprietary frames direct and "at a big savings" (big win for them), and the frame will ship to "Vision Plan"'s laboratory (VSP owns a couple as well as Luxottica) for an in-house job. (Eyemed currently offers providers a 10% discount if we have the jobs done by a fully-owned Essilor lab.)

    Wholesale laboratories that currently do vision plan work would be cut out.

    Providers would provide dispensing for a fee.

    This model practically exists with Spectera/Optum Vision albeit lower tech...they provide the frames (I believe), the lowest bidder lab gets the work (Crown, I believe), and the dispenser gets a (ridiculously insulting) dispensing fee (some tips in restaurants are higher).

    And, as Walmart workers know, online contact lenses are part of the Walmart optical experience. Unbeknown to most, Eyemed has it's own CL replacement service that in essence circumvents the provider. It's not if, but when.

    Any way you look at it, the real value is professional service, and opticianry must position itself for this.

    How?
    Doc JK ,were you an optician before?Finally, somebody said what is to come.:cheers:Look at the bright side of online retailers at least we won't have to open new frame accounts and keep the minimum in stock.We will cut out the middle man (frame co.)and just order the frame online and have access to all the frames.:D

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    "Virtual inventories" eh?

    Currently, we have a shortcut on our optical's desktop to every one of our vendors' online catalogues.

    It provides an equivalent function to getting out the frame catalogues for situations where someone needs something special, but usually the situation necessitates another visit to make sure the frame is "right".

    I'm sure that most of my patients would prefer to try on the frame right away, but at least we have this for special requests, like uncommon sizes or non-mainstream fashions or colors.
    Last edited by Jeffrey Kiener OD; 07-30-2009 at 09:00 AM.

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    ABOC-NCLEC tigerlilly's Avatar
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    One of the reasons people buy online glasses is because they've convinced themselves they cannot afford "real" glasses. I can't tell you how many patients have said they can't afford glasses while whipping out their Blackberry to answer a text, or they just told me all about their Disney vacation. These are the same people who will wear a two week contact lens for two months becuase they "can't afford" to replace them on schedule. Some people don't consider their vision or their ocular health to be a spending priority when compared to luxuries and fun things, and I don't know how to change that mindset.

    As for this BIG BOX gal, I'm not allowed to charge for ala carte services, so I just don't do them. We have no corporate policy to follow on measurements and services on online glasses, so we politely refuse to have anything to do with it. If someone asks for a PD, we tell them that the optician who is making their glasses will take that measurement. If they say they're buying online, we wish them luck with that and send them on their way. If they'e educable we'll outline the reasons not to buy online and explain why buying from us or another brick and mortar is better. If they're belligerent we'll smile and tell 'em, "Sorry we can't help you, have a great day!" and move on to the next patient or task.

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    Redhot Jumper most of my patients would prefer to try on the frame right away, ....................

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Kiener OD View Post
    "
    I'm sure that most of my patients would prefer to try on the frame right away, ...............................
    .................but many will pass over this option because the price is a lot different.

    It is just a fact that the larger on-line sellers actually do sell thousands of pairs of glasses per day. ...........and those are all glasses not gone through the optical retail market.

    The frame and lens manufacturers don't care which way their products are going as long as they go. They do now have an over supply, due to the economy and have to move their stock.

    On-line sellers are an non-persoal oriented service industry, you order in numbers and pay with credit cards and never see or talk to any one you are buying from.

    Gone are the day's where the little old lady stops at the optician on her way to the shopping centre for her weekly adjusting session and talk.

    Remember the gas station a few years back..............it used to be called and was a service station. you could even get reapirs done there.

    Today they are corporation owned help yourself operations, that set the rules how you can get your gas. Credit cards will not work in USA when using a Canadian credit card and they will not accept the Canadian postal codes. Neither do the accept a $ 100.00 bill between 9.00pm and 7 am.

    Quo vadis ????????????????

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    TIGERLILLY, If only everybody did what you do.:cheers:

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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerlilly View Post
    One of the reasons people buy online glasses is because they've convinced themselves they cannot afford "real" glasses. I can't tell you how many patients have said they can't afford glasses while whipping out their Blackberry to answer a text, or they just told me all about their Disney vacation.
    Thank you, Tigerlilly, for the assist here:

    It's simple:

    John Q. Public thinks Blackberrys are cool.
    And "glasses" are not.

    It's all about the people's attitudes. What would change them.

    Some seriously cool eyewear products.

    But I think that's not happenin', with the major players today.

    And indie opening?

    Barry

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    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Excellent post, Wes. There are excellent Opticians in many different practice settings, and we should recognize that.
    I appreciate that some of the most eminent among us are aware of this. I applaud your forthrightness in every situation.
    Wes
    Last edited by Wes; 07-30-2009 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Grammar; can't have hipoptical "bust me out"!
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    dispensing optician

    Just so you all know. Essilor is in the process of facilitating online purchasing. See Vision Monday. The site mentioned in the article (Framesdirect) advertises it doesn't need measurements. They have a mathematical formula for fitting segs heights. I know...wtf? Essilor told me that they have no problem fitting eyewear to patients that are not present in the office and we (opticians) will lose out on a 10-14% market if we don't join them in providing online dispensing. If Essilor succeeds in online dispensing, why would they need opticians, optometrists or MD's. They could just as easily go direct to the patient. A computer cam and uploaded pic can be use to determine an exact PD. I don't think they could grasp the need for a proper fitting frame.
    We will not provide PD's or seg heights at our location. We file frame styles and sizes in the patients file or make a tempoary record that can be pulled up if the patient returns to make a purchase. We don't believe in giving away advise or working for free. We refuse to adjust online eyewear, no matter what fee is offered us. How does one determine if eyeglasses were purchased online? We ask "Is there any reason you can't go back to your own optician for this service". This problem wont go away but essilor is no helping us by pushing it. THINK ABOUT IT! Independents vs chains is not the problem.

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    Redhot Jumper I think warranties fall into the service category.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Kiener OD View Post
    I think warranties fall into the service category. Lots of people shop where they have trust. This "satisfaction guaranteed" mentality is important.

    What else?

    ...........and here iis the warranty of obe of the large online sellers:


    OUR GUARANTEE:

    We take great pride in delivering a quality product at an incredibly low price. Each order is carefully checked by our certified technicians for prescription accuracy and optical clarity before shipment. Since all orders are custom produced and unique, all sales are final. Please be very careful in filling out the order form.

    If you are dissatisfied with your eyeglasses for any reason, they may be returned for a -50% refund within a period of four weeks. We do not reimburse for shipping and handling of orders returned for a refund. If the glasses are being returned for a warranty issue, this must be completed within the 30 day period, as well. We do not address warranty issues beyond a thirty day period.

    The industry standard on custom produced merchandise is that the order is charged at the placement of the order, and that there is no refund due if the order was filled in accordance with the specifications of its placement. ........ Optical's policy of a fifty percent refund on this custom made product, is, therefore, very generous.

    If the glasses are being returned, it is necessary to call the office and receive a Return Merchandise Authorization number. Returns and refunds will not be processed without this number. Our phone number is ...................., and our hours are 0900-1700 ,,,,,,,,,,,,time, M-F, holidays excepted.

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