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Thread: Please Help Us Out

  1. #1
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Please Help Us Out

    The Registered Optician's Association of Texas (ROATx) is currently conducting a survey of Eye Care Providers across to country tracking wrongly made eyewear.

    Please print the attached form and use it to document any glasses that come back to your office made incorrectly.

    The first page is self-explanatory. Just fill in the information requested. Give a copy of the form to your patient to take back to the place they purchased their glasses and keep a copy for your records. Just cut off or block out the top portion of the form and fax to ROATx at (512) 420-0262 or email to info@roatx.org with the subject 'Prescription Analysis Form'.

    The second page of the form explains the role of a Registered Optician in the State of Texas.

    Per Sam Johnson, President of ROATx, you may alter these forms as needed to identify your state or area. We just ask that you utilize this tool and send it back to us in whatever form you choose.

    I have included a .pdf, Word, and Rich Text Format of the forms. If you have any questions, please let me know.

    The Word and Rich Text Format versions have been changed to reflect HIPAA instead of HIPPA. I don't have access to change the .pdf file and will update as soon as it is changed.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by bob_f_aboc; 06-11-2009 at 09:14 AM. Reason: updated files
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

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    Master OptiBoarder optical24/7's Avatar
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    This is also a very professional way to present to the patient exactly what was made incorrectly, and gives them something to return to the original provider what you found wrong.

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    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    C'mon Guys!!!

    Only 9 views of the files?

    I know you can do better than that!!!

    WE NEED YOU TO MAKE THIS WORK!
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

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    It's "HIPAA"

    Can I suggest you edit the document and change HIPPA to HIPAA? It stands for the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

    Otherwise I think it's a great idea!

  5. #5
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inslady View Post
    Can I suggest you edit the document and change HIPPA to HIPAA? It stands for the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

    Otherwise I think it's a great idea!

    Thank you! I can't believe I missed that. I will get that changed as soon as I can.

    Bob
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    I've been using the form for over a year but never sent them in, I'll start sending them in, matter if fact I sent one today.
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  7. #7
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    Are we about to put ourselves into being other men's judges?

  8. #8
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Chip,

    We aren't judging anyone. We are tracking the most common errors we find when patients bring in glasses and complain that they can't see with them.

    We have no intention of singling out any optician or company. We are simply compiling information about our profession.

    I have had several in the past few months where a patient comes in with glasses they got somewhere else cheaper than my office that they cannot see with. Three in the past two months have had over 3 diopters of horizontal prism induced in the lenses when none was prescribed. I had a pair come in with +1.00 sph poly OU, one lens had an edge thickness of 1.9 and the other was at 9.4. All of these patients went back to the place that they purchased them from originally and were told the glasses were made correctly and the prescription must not be right. Before anyone sees the docs in my office for an Rx re-check, I sit down with them to troubleshoot the glasses; whether made by me or anyone else. I don't admit to being without fault. When I make a mistake, I also document it.

    This form allows us to document exactly what we find in a pair of glasses and send it back with the patient to give the their dispenser.
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_f_aboc View Post





    This form allows us to document exactly what we find in a pair of glasses and send it back with the patient to give the their dispenser.
    You shouldn't give a patient that form, with all of that info. Why not fax it to the dispenser or call them and tell them what you find.

  10. #10
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    You don't think the patient has a right to know what was wrong with their glasses?

    It has more power when the patient walks back into the optical with this form in his/her hand and says, "This is what is wrong with these glasses!"

    Its hard for someone to brush it off when they are faced directly with it. If we call or fax, who knows what they will tell the patient when they arrive?
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder
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    I suppose your intention is to belittle your competition.
    Why put the patient in the middle of it?
    They have no idea what those numbers mean. Axis prescribed 180, dispenser made 004 on that .25d cyl...WOW!!
    Perhaps you should tell the patient that there is a little discrepancy in the rx with what was prescribed and that you will report you findings to the dispenser.
    How about this...your doctor writes an rx, and patient has it filled down the street. Rx is not real good.
    Dispenser writes a letter and hands to patient to give to doctor.
    Letter says...Dear doctor, rx you wrote is NO GOOD!
    No we don't do that, do we? We have the patient go in to be re-evaluated.

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    I have seen many cases where the patient is told the glasses are off 2 degrees. Patient goes into a sefl-righteous panic. Rushes to the dispensary and releases a tirade on how incompetent they are and wants his money back to go elsewhere.
    In truth many glasses are off by this amount. Lenses can slip in the frame this far. It probably wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in patient use and the doctor probably didn't refine his refraction to this degree anyway.

    But we have stirred up a whole hornet's nest of trouble that didn't need stirred up. While I am not the world's greatest expert on spectacles by any means, I have almost never seen a pair of contact lenses or a fit that I couldn't improve or find a flaw in. Suspect that most really good opticians would say this is true of spectacles.

    Odd that we will go on mission trips and dispense worn out junk that bears little resemblence to the needed Rx and yet we nit pick about whether ARC was used and what quality of same, if segs are measured to the quarter mm in our retail work. Do perhaps we discriminate?

    Chip

  13. #13
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CME4SPECS View Post
    I suppose your intention is to belittle your competition.
    Not at all. I use the same form to troubleshoot glasses that I have sold with an Rx by my doc.
    Why put the patient in the middle of it?
    The patient ultimately has the right to know if what they are wearing is correct or not.
    They have no idea what those numbers mean. Axis prescribed 180, dispenser made 004 on that .25d cyl...WOW!!
    If the patient comes in complaining that they cannot see out of their glasses, there is either an issue with the prescription or the manufacturer. If the only thing I find is a lens 4 degree off axis with a .25 cyl, I will send them back with the doctor with the above form and I will mark the section that says, "Have written Rx verified by Doctor of Record" Perhaps you should tell the patient that there is a little discrepancy in the rx with what was prescribed and that you will report you findings to the dispenser.
    And when the patient goes back, Jack, the person that I spoke with is gone for the day or quit or was fired or is too busy flirting with the fire extinguisher to help. Or they say, "The problem he talked about wasn't really that serious, it was within tolerance." And that is the end of it.
    How about this...your doctor writes an rx, and patient has it filled down the street. Rx is not real good.
    Dispenser writes a letter and hands to patient to give to doctor.
    Letter says...Dear doctor, rx you wrote is NO GOOD!
    No we don't do that, do we? Yes! I have received letters from dispensers stating that the prescription was completely wrong. The difference is, while those dispensers are quick to claim that the Rx was wrong, I send a form listing EXACTLY what I found, not just, "wrong, remake!" We have the patient go in to be re-evaluated.
    So do I!
    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    I have seen many cases where the patient is told the glasses are off 2 degrees. Patient goes into a sefl-righteous panic. Rushes to the dispensary and releases a tirade on how incompetent they are and wants his money back to go elsewhere.
    In truth many glasses are off by this amount. Lenses can slip in the frame this far. It probably wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in patient use and the doctor probably didn't refine his refraction to this degree anyway.
    Again, if the patient comes back to the doctor complaining that they cannot see with their glasses, there is most likely something wrong. Maybe the patient is sensitive to axis, maybe the Rx was written incorrectly. We will know for sure upon further investigation.
    But we have stirred up a whole hornet's nest of trouble that didn't need stirred up. While I am not the world's greatest expert on spectacles by any means, I have almost never seen a pair of contact lenses or a fit that I couldn't improve or find a flaw in. Suspect that most really good opticians would say this is true of spectacles.
    If the patient is complaining, why wouldn't you try to improve what they have. If there is no complaint, there is no need for the forms.

    Odd that we will go on mission trips and dispense worn out junk that bears little resemblence to the needed Rx and yet we nit pick about whether ARC was used and what quality of same, if segs are measured to the quarter mm in our retail work. Do perhaps we discriminate?
    Just ensuring that my patients get what they paid for.
    Chip
    If you don't like the forms, don't use them.
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

  14. #14
    Master OptiBoarder
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    No worries, I didn't plan on using it! If it's for a study, use it for study!

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    This practice got trashed on this site a couple of years ago because of a local news story we did that made it to Good Morning America. If someone made the glasses wrong, they are WRONG. The patient and the dispenser deserve to know what they did wrong. I would want to know if I let something slip. We now have patients coming in with glasses they got on the internet, complaining about "no-lines" that don't work. Doing right and pointing out wrong does nothing but strengthen our profession. :shiner:

  16. #16
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Bob,

    The form is a good idea and I have enjoyed using it in the past, I only wish I had been sending them in sooner. Mistakes are mistakes and I am not ashamed of making them or want to cover them up. I find that the froms when explained properly to the patient is helpful and I like to send a letter to the prescriber so he/she isn't blind sided. I think of it as a professional courtesy. The form is a consultation to help the patient and the dispenser see problems from another perspective. Their are a few things I would add to the form for thoroughness sake, but it's great the way it is.

    Don't pay any mind to those that put it down remember the form has a purpose and it's to identify the common problems i our indusrty that go unnoticed or swept under a rug. Chances are that some of the folks that don't like this form have brooms in their hands. ;) There's a reason why they put treads on tanks, don't let anything stand in your way brother.
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    Actually I can remember back in the day when physicians prescribed but didn't dispense, the better ones had the patient's bring thier glasses by for inspection after they got them. If they had an issue they called the dispenser. They didn't sic the patient on them.

    Chip

  18. #18
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Actually I can remember back in the day when physicians prescribed but didn't dispense, the better ones had the patient's bring thier glasses by for inspection after they got them. If they had an issue they called the dispenser. They didn't sic the patient on them.

    Chip
    More people knew what they were doing back then and gas was $0.10 a gallon, there is a lot of things I'd trade with you today for what was the case back then, but times change.

    Licensure is a way to protect the public, it's funny how we almost all agree that we need licensure but no one wants to do anything to get it, this is a TX initiative to start documenting the many cases where things go wrong and those that want to reap the rewards don't want to do any work. If 80% of the offices in my area started using this form then I would be forced to step up my game and double and triple check everything I did, hence the profession holds itself accountable. If we want the status quo foget about filling it out and provideing your patients with it, if you want change and something different give it a shot let the other guy gripe and complain. I do have to say though if you plan on using this form, then you need to be sure your $h*t don't stink, and if it does it's time to start making changes or get out of the profession. Their is no room for haphazard dispensing with todays technologies and I won't step down my game to match anyones level I expect them to step their game up to match mine or concede.
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    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    More people knew what they were doing back then and gas was $0.10 a gallon, there is a lot of things I'd trade with you today for what was the case back then, but times change.

    Licensure is a way to protect the public, it's funny how we almost all agree that we need licensure but no one wants to do anything to get it, this is a TX initiative to start documenting the many cases where things go wrong and those that want to reap the rewards don't want to do any work. If 80% of the offices in my area started using this form then I would be forced to step up my game and double and triple check everything I did, hence the profession holds itself accountable. If we want the status quo foget about filling it out and provideing your patients with it, if you want change and something different give it a shot let the other guy gripe and complain. I do have to say though if you plan on using this form, then you need to be sure your $h*t don't stink, and if it does it's time to start making changes or get out of the profession. Their is no room for haphazard dispensing with todays technologies and I won't step down my game to match anyones level I expect them to step their game up to match mine or concede.

    Well said!!!




    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

  20. #20
    Optiboard Professional Bill West's Avatar
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    Forms for everyone....

    A customer brought this form in the other day. Seems my new prices have shook a few doc's in this town.
    It stated that if you did not purchase your new glasses from the OD,who did the exam,they could not be held responsible for the glasses being made right. They also mentioned "experience", hell I got more experience than all their office put together.They also stated that you might not get a genuine Essilor lens and Crizal and you might not even get a real Transitions tint.
    I suppose they think just because you sell for less than $700/800 a pair, they must not be "THE REAL THING".
    Well they should not have done that. Now I will lower my prices more and step up my advertising and advertise"THE REAL THING" and my EXPERIENCE of fifty years.
    I think your idea"STINKS" and can only give the nuts who are looking for trouble ammunition.
    I have to go with Chip on this one.
    If someone comes to me complaining about their "new glasses", I simply tell them to go back where they got them and if they can't get them right, GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND I WILL MAKE YOU SOME YOU CAN WEAR.

  21. #21
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill West View Post
    A customer brought this form in the other day. Seems my new prices have shook a few doc's in this town.
    It stated that if you did not purchase your new glasses from the OD,who did the exam,they could not be held responsible for the glasses being made right. They also mentioned "experience", hell I got more experience than all their office put together.They also stated that you might not get a genuine Essilor lens and Crizal and you might not even get a real Transitions tint.
    I suppose they think just because you sell for less than $700/800 a pair, they must not be "THE REAL THING".
    Well they should not have done that. Now I will lower my prices more and step up my advertising and advertise"THE REAL THING" and my EXPERIENCE of fifty years.
    I think your idea"STINKS" and can only give the nuts who are looking for trouble ammunition.
    I have to go with Chip on this one.
    If someone comes to me complaining about their "new glasses", I simply tell them to go back where they got them and if they can't get them right, GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND I WILL MAKE YOU SOME YOU CAN WEAR.

    So how many times do you recommend putting them back in the chair to have their Rx re-checked? Most places that would send them back to the doc are not going to admit that they did anything wrong. The doctors I work for would rather see patients that they will get paid for, not pointless Rx checks.

    The only people that will receive the form that I posted are those that come in with a problem with their vision with their glasses AFTER I have thoroughly inspected them for Rx, prism, seg/OC placement, thickness, cosmetics, and fit. I do not instruct everyone who walks out with their Rx to come back to have me inspect their glasses. I do, however, have patients that have seen other doctors and then had their glasses made at the Big Box or the mall come in to have them checked because a friend referred them to me.

    The endless cycle of: "These are made right, go back to the doctor. The Rx is right, have them remade" only results in lost patients for all parties involved.

    I don't know about you, but I try to keep as many patients in my office as I can.
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

  22. #22
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Needs the fax number on the form somewhere.
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    Optiboard Professional Bill West's Avatar
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    See your point

    [QUOTE=bob_f_aboc;300016]So how many times do you recommend putting them back in the chair to have their Rx re-checked? Most places that would send them back to the doc are not going to admit that they did anything wrong. The doctors I work for would rather see patients that they will get paid for, not pointless Rx checks.


    I'm saying if they get new glasses some where else and come in complaining to me I don't get involved. Your situation is different from mine because they are returning to your doctors. I don't have a doc on the premises. Still people bring in "bad" glasses and I tell them to get the $$ back and a lot of times they do.
    Hang in there.:cheers:

  24. #24
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    Good points from both sides.
    Yes delicate matter on staying very Professional!!!
    Re: Roatx form...use it for the study great!!!
    if youre concerned @ TMI for the pt....simple solution....it's what I do.
    After your analysis, and only if something is clearly done wrong ( BC, unprescribed prism, rx well outside of tolerance, etc) I then take the glasses and Prep. the Doc's Rx Pad what needs to be addressed re: glasses - review it w.doc promptly and he signs. (this leaves the competitive optician's from arguing with the pt's or each other).
    My doc appreciates that I value his time and have taken care of his pt. promptly. ( i've also earned his confidence).
    The patient is told only, "yes, there is some concern with the glasses + to take this RX back to where they purchased the glasses they should be able to assist you. Be sure and copy RX +/or Roatx form + keep in pt files. Simple, courteous, professional.

    Knowing what the problem is ..1)glasses made wrong 2)pt problem 3)Rx wrong 4)all 3 ( it can happen)......can be argued on paper all day long.
    A well versed/expierenced optician KNOWs 1-2-3-4 above and handles pt appropriately (ref.back to optical/doc/ or is able to explain the changes to the pt more clearly ....)
    Each pt/situation is very diff. and way too many senarios when there is a problem.
    Kudos Harry/Bob.....I agree and my opinion, lesser experience optician's/ lab tech are very defensive when told glasses need to be remade due to common human/machine error. If another optician in a diff. practice found your error, sorry get over it and do your job. Simple. Don't like it get out. I have my own job to do.

  25. #25
    ABO-AC, NCLE-AC, LDO-NV bob_f_aboc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by humbleABOCtx View Post
    Good points from both sides.
    Yes delicate matter on staying very Professional!!!
    Re: Roatx form...use it for the study great!!!
    if youre concerned @ TMI for the pt....simple solution....it's what I do.
    After your analysis, and only if something is clearly done wrong ( BC, unprescribed prism, rx well outside of tolerance, etc) I then take the glasses and Prep. the Doc's Rx Pad what needs to be addressed re: glasses - review it w.doc promptly and he signs. (this leaves the competitive optician's from arguing with the pt's or each other).
    My doc appreciates that I value his time and have taken care of his pt. promptly. ( i've also earned his confidence).
    The patient is told only, "yes, there is some concern with the glasses + to take this RX back to where they purchased the glasses they should be able to assist you. Be sure and copy RX +/or Roatx form + keep in pt files. Simple, courteous, professional.

    Knowing what the problem is ..1)glasses made wrong 2)pt problem 3)Rx wrong 4)all 3 ( it can happen)......can be argued on paper all day long.
    A well versed/expierenced optician KNOWs 1-2-3-4 above and handles pt appropriately (ref.back to optical/doc/ or is able to explain the changes to the pt more clearly ....)
    Each pt/situation is very diff. and way too many senarios when there is a problem.
    Kudos Harry/Bob.....I agree and my opinion, lesser experience optician's/ lab tech are very defensive when told glasses need to be remade due to common human/machine error. If another optician in a diff. practice found your error, sorry get over it and do your job. Simple. Don't like it get out. I have my own job to do.
    Since I personally know your doctor, I will agree with writing everything on an Rx pad. However, there are a lot of docs out there that wouldn't get around to signing it until the patient was due for his next exam. Or still, other docs that won't take our word for what we found and insist on seeing the patient for free rather than sign something not written by a doctor.

    I think a lot of people here are mistaking this form for Gospel. This is not infallable. This form was designed to convey information from one optician to another. We may have a patient that flips out when we point out what is wrong. As a patient myself, I like to be informed of what is taking place in my health care. I think this is a courtesy we owe our patients whether we use a standard form, an Rx pad, or the inside of a matchbook. This shows the patient that we are actively looking out for their best interest.

    If your PCP prescribes Plavix and you receive Paxil, do you really think the doctor will just call the pharmacy without telling you what was wrong? "Just take this bottle back to CVS and they will fix the problem. Bye bye!" Or what about your child who was prescribed the anti-epileptic drug Lamictal but was filled as Lamisil, an anti-fungal. From some of the above arguments, there is no reason for you to be informed. "I don't know why your son's epilepsy isn't improving. Here try this pill instead."

    Personally, I would stop doing business with anyone that treated me that way.

    Yes, I do have an ego. As does anyone who has worked and studied hard to succeed in their field. My ego will not stand in the way of learning from my mistakes. If mistakes are not brought to our attention, we are going to repeat them. I welcome anyone to critique my work. It makes me better than I was before. When we can no longer learn anything about our field, it is time to hang it up.

    I strive to be the very best at what I do. I know that no matter how hard I work and how much I know, there will always be someone that knows something I don't.

    Ask anyone that I have worked with (the person above included), I ruffle feathers. I look for the little things. It drives people crazy to work with me sometimes. But because of that character flaw, I have patients that come back time after time after time to see me.

    I don't expect anyone else to change their beliefs or behaviors because of what I have said here. I started this thread to give everyone a tool that I feel will help us, as opticians, do our job more efficiently.

    Sorry for the rant, just getting sick of the apathy in this profession.
    A lack of planning on your part DOES NOT constitute an emergency on mine!

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