surfacing?

[steff]

Hi guys,
I work for a public health organisation. I am currently trying to assess the viability of setting up some sort of surfacing laboratory as a long term solution for increasing a country's capability for providing eyecare. Currently, we set up optical workshops with edgers etc, but rely on sourcing lenses either in country (which is great when the country has that capability) or importing them (which is a really difficult proposition if the px is a pl/-4.50 or needs bifocals with cyl).

WRT requirements, really a small scale lab is all that is really required. It probably doesn't really need to do more than 40 lenses a day.

I know about edging, however know next to nothing about surfacing, so I've turned to my Optiboard friends for help...

1) I have been quoted about $USD250 000 to set up a surfacing lab. Bearing in mind that we have no plans to multicoating or surfacing progressives (CR39, single vision and bifocals), nor back surface hard coats, do you think this is a reasonable price?
2) If not, what sort of price do you think is reasonable for setting up a basic surfacing lab bearing in mind that we will be using local capability, thus more automated and less manual is better? (brands and model advice would be welcome)
3) What is the minimum training you think someone requires to operate this?

Thanks everyone!

steff

[Jubilee]

Cost wise, depends. Do you plan on buying new or refurbished?

While more automation will make an easier to learn process, the concern I would have would be over the costly parts and high technical skill needed to troubleshoot or repair the something even on par with a SGX.

Talk to Leo at Vision Systems Inc. He is a member here who specializes in equipment sales and service. The company has an excellent reputation and even if you don't buy, Leo has excellent knowledge of what's out there and the pros and cons to them.

[LilKim]

Hi guys,
I work for a public health organisation. I am currently trying to assess the viability of setting up some sort of surfacing laboratory as a long term solution for increasing a country's capability for providing eyecare. Currently, we set up optical workshops with edgers etc, but rely on sourcing lenses either in country (which is great when the country has that capability) or importing them (which is a really difficult proposition if the px is a pl/-4.50 or needs bifocals with cyl).

WRT requirements, really a small scale lab is all that is really required. It probably doesn't really need to do more than 40 lenses a day.

I know about edging, however know next to nothing about surfacing, so I've turned to my Optiboard friends for help...

1) I have been quoted about $USD250 000 to set up a surfacing lab. Bearing in mind that we have no plans to multicoating or surfacing progressives (CR39, single vision and bifocals), nor back surface hard coats, do you think this is a reasonable price?
2) If not, what sort of price do you think is reasonable for setting up a basic surfacing lab bearing in mind that we will be using local capability, thus more automated and less manual is better? (brands and model advice would be welcome)
3) What is the minimum training you think someone requires to operate this?

Thanks everyone!

steff

I'd really put money towards a backside coater, at least for polys, trivex and hi index...can save you money from surface flaws that might otherwise not make it through inspection. A trained monkey can operate surface equipment nowadays (we have several at our lab--they love the bananas and fried chicken), but you should invest in a person with experience for first inspection. All the rest is just grunt work, lol.

I think your price range is reasonable for setting up a lab if you're using refurbished equipement. Don't underestimate the worth of purchasing an extended warranty if it's available, otherwise that cheap equipment will become a money pit if something breaks down.

[Fezz]

1) I have been quoted about $USD250 000 to set up a surfacing lab. Bearing in mind that we have no plans to multicoating or surfacing progressives (CR39, single vision and bifocals), nor back surface hard coats, do you think this is a reasonable price?

:drop:

I suggest allowing FezzJohns, Inc. to setup the lab for $125,000. We will get a lab up and running for about $20,000 {even less if you are a savvy shopper like Braheem24}. We will use the other $105,000 to hire a competent Lab Rat who could easily run 40 jobs a day with both hands tied behind their back. FezzJohns, Inc, would then pocket the remaining $125,000 for a job well done!!!


;):cheers::cheers::cheers::D

[wmcdonald]

I'd really put money towards a backside coater, at least for polys, trivex and hi index...can save you money from surface flaws that might otherwise not make it through inspection. A trained monkey can operate surface equipment nowadays (we have several at our lab--they love the bananas and fried chicken), but you should invest in a person with experience for first inspection. All the rest is just grunt work, lol.

I think your price range is reasonable for setting up a lab if you're using refurbished equipement. Don't underestimate the worth of purchasing an extended warranty if it's available, otherwise that cheap equipment will become a money pit if something breaks down.

The price is way over what is required. Folks, read the post. This individual works for a PHO and is setting up a lab where there probably is no eyecare, or at best little. In most parts of Africa, for example, over half of what is termed "blindness" is actually uncorrected refractive error. These folks need basic stuff, and trivex, etc, is not even a consideration if I am correct. I think you should look up Vision Systems here on Optiboard and see what they can do to help with a small lab. 20 jobs a day (40 lenses) should be relatively easy to accomplish.

[braheem24]

Hi Steff, PM me and I'll be happy to help you find itmes to fit your needs and maybe even help you install and train.

I've setup 5 labs in the past 6 years each for 1/10th of the quote you received.

[Chris Ryser]

Hi guys,


1) I have been quoted about $USD250 000 to set up a surfacing lab. Bearing in mind that we have no plans to multicoating or surfacing progressives (CR39, single vision and bifocals), nor back surface hard coats, do you think this is a reasonable price?
2) If not, what sort of price do you think is reasonable for setting up a basic surfacing lab bearing in mind that we will be using local capability, thus more automated and less manual is better? (brands and model advice would be welcome)
3) What is the minimum training you think someone requires to operate this?

Depending what country you want to set up for lab operations it might be a good idea to search for equipment in a neighbouring area.
Look for used equipment dealers as there have been many labs closed lately from Europe to America and the far East. You could save on new price and transport.

[Jacqui]

I really must agree with Fezz on this one. My estimate would be USD 25,000, but this would also include consumable supplies needed to start. I have contacts in South America, Africa and parts of Asia that handle new and rebuilt equipment, let me know what you need and I will have them contact you.

A good starting point would be a 108 or similar generator, 505 or 506 cylinder machines and assorted small equipment. Don't forget a lap cutter, you do need to retrue the tools from time to time.

[Fezz]

Hey Jacqui,

I think Steff may be in Australia? Do you have any contacts there?

[HarryChiling]

Hi guys,
I work for a public health organisation. I am currently trying to assess the viability of setting up some sort of surfacing laboratory as a long term solution for increasing a country's capability for providing eyecare. Currently, we set up optical workshops with edgers etc, but rely on sourcing lenses either in country (which is great when the country has that capability) or importing them (which is a really difficult proposition if the px is a pl/-4.50 or needs bifocals with cyl).

WRT requirements, really a small scale lab is all that is really required. It probably doesn't really need to do more than 40 lenses a day.

I know about edging, however know next to nothing about surfacing, so I've turned to my Optiboard friends for help...

1) I have been quoted about $USD250 000 to set up a surfacing lab. Bearing in mind that we have no plans to multicoating or surfacing progressives (CR39, single vision and bifocals), nor back surface hard coats, do you think this is a reasonable price?
2) If not, what sort of price do you think is reasonable for setting up a basic surfacing lab bearing in mind that we will be using local capability, thus more automated and less manual is better? (brands and model advice would be welcome)
3) What is the minimum training you think someone requires to operate this?

Thanks everyone!

steff

That price is ridiculous. You should be able to get new equipment fro aorund $100K or in the ball park and if your shoppign used you could probably get away with anythign from $30k to $50k, sounds too good but I've done it myself. For $250K your looking at the most updated unnecessary equipment available today, you don't need that for 40 jobs a day especially CR-39 jobs. My best suggestions would be:

Optronics

Their line is mostly dry cut, which may be ncessary in an enviornment without an abundance of water if that is a concern.

[rbaker]

The price is way over what is required. Folks, read the post. This individual works for a PHO and is setting up a lab where there probably is no eyecare, or at best little. In most parts of Africa, for example, over half of what is termed "blindness" is actually uncorrected refractive error. These folks need basic stuff, and trivex, etc, is not even a consideration if I am correct. I think you should look up Vision Systems here on Optiboard and see what they can do to help with a small lab. 20 jobs a day (40 lenses) should be relatively easy to accomplish.

The high bid is due to the fact that the customer is a PHO. A Public Health Organization is the government. We all know that governments spend money like drunken sailors as they are not accountable for their fiscal impropriety. I assume that the lab is to be set up in some developing third world country in which case mucho greaso will have to be applied to the project.

Ahhh . . . the public sector strikes again. By the time the local politicians got through with with FezzJohns, Inc they woulnd be able to afford a six pack of the native rot gut.

Why not encourage a local private sector enterprise to open up a lab in Gods Little Acre or whereever in the world you are.

[HarryChiling]

Ahhh . . . the public sector strikes again. By the time the local politicians got through with with FezzJohns, Inc they woulnd be able to afford a six pack of the native rot gut.

As the grease man for FezzJohns, Inc. I can tell you we take a different approach to greaseing than most do. We don't use a top down philosophy as many of the other large companies do, we use a bottom up philosophy are our shipments come in between the hours of 12am and 3am, when the hoodlums are out, you can always count on hoodlums needing greaseing, but when you gotta grease the fat cats just to turn aroudn and grease the hood rats, your spending way to much on grease. :D

[IC-UC]

Hey Jacqui,

I think Steff may be in Australia? Do you have any contacts there?

Hey Steff,

If you are in Aus, let me know and I will try to help where possible.

[steff]

Hi guys,
thanks for the suggestions.
rbaker, I actually don't work for the government. I work for an NGO which looks at preventing avoidable blindness due to refractive error (about 617 MILLION people worldwide) by providing SUSTAINABLE eyecare solutions. This means training local people to refract etc, but also providing a longterm, sustainable spectacle supply. In terms of accountability, we are held more accountable for our spending of dollars than most corporate practices! Encouraging an enterprising local to set up a surfacing laboratory would be great, however the set up costs and obtaining training are prohibitive to locals in many countries - if you earn $120 a month, it is difficult to spend 100k on a lab. That's where we come in. The idea would always be to go in, provide infrastructure and training to local people, then spin it off so that in a few years it was self sufficient and run by locals.

I thought that $AUD500k was high for a surfacing lab - I had around the $A50-100k mark in mind, which is why I asked the good people of Optiboard for some help :-)

Can I ask a dumb question (apologies - I'm just a humble optometrist). Can I have a list of equipment I would need to surface lenses?
As I understand it, I need a generator, a polisher and a blocker. Is that it? Anything else?

Thanks for all the contacts - I will investigate - and yes, I am in Australia
steff

[IC-UC]

Hi Steff,

I have sent you a PM, but there are quite a few other smaller accessories you would need to get the lab running. The items you mention are the "big Ticket" items.
And on top of that is your consumables.:(

[HarryChiling]

Hi guys,
thanks for the suggestions.
rbaker, I actually don't work for the government. I work for an NGO which looks at preventing avoidable blindness due to refractive error (about 617 MILLION people worldwide) by providing SUSTAINABLE eyecare solutions. This means training local people to refract etc, but also providing a longterm, sustainable spectacle supply. In terms of accountability, we are held more accountable for our spending of dollars than most corporate practices! Encouraging an enterprising local to set up a surfacing laboratory would be great, however the set up costs and obtaining training are prohibitive to locals in many countries - if you earn $120 a month, it is difficult to spend 100k on a lab. That's where we come in. The idea would always be to go in, provide infrastructure and training to local people, then spin it off so that in a few years it was self sufficient and run by locals.

I thought that $AUD500k was high for a surfacing lab - I had around the $A50-100k mark in mind, which is why I asked the good people of Optiboard for some help :-)

Can I ask a dumb question (apologies - I'm just a humble optometrist). Can I have a list of equipment I would need to surface lenses?
As I understand it, I need a generator, a polisher and a blocker. Is that it? Anything else?

Thanks for all the contacts - I will investigate - and yes, I am in Australia
steff

The bare necessities:

Blocker
Marker
Generator
Finer
Polisher
Laps/Tools
Air Compressor
Reclaim Tank (if alloy is used)

Additional Equipment:

Sag Guage
Deblocker
Tape Applicator
Baum Guage

Then the consumables:

Wax or alloy
Surface Saver Tape
Grease Pencils
Fining Pads
Polishing Pads
Slurry

I am sure I forgot something so if anyone has anything to add please post. I would suggest used or refurbished equipment and the less computerized the better, I know some older generators that have been in use for 20+ years, the newer computerized models just don't have that kind of longevity built into them so if sustainable is the goal spend more time in training on older equipment.

I am sending you a link to a guy that sells used equipment, it could be used as a source to find equipment or to price used equipment. Check your PM.

[chip anderson]

Anybody think she might need a lensometer?

[steff]

The current workshops have finishing equipment:
Lensmeters, pattern maker, blocker, edger, hand edger etc.

But thanks for thinking about it

steff

[KStraker]

The current workshops have finishing equipment:
Lensmeters, pattern maker, blocker, edger, hand edger etc.

But thanks for thinking about it

steff

You need another blocker for the surfacing layout. You'll also need an array of surfacing blocks in different base curves.

[DragonLensmanWV]

You need another blocker for the surfacing layout. You'll also need an array of surfacing blocks in different base curves.

Unless you use a solid alloy system, which makes it's own block each time.It's a lot simpler.

[KStraker]

Unless you use a solid alloy system, which makes it's own block each time.It's a lot simpler.

That sounds pretty interesting. I'll have to look in to it. It probably uses more alloy though, and that stuff is expensive.

[DragonLensmanWV]

That sounds pretty interesting. I'll have to look in to it. It probably uses more alloy though, and that stuff is expensive.

Yeah, the alloy goes up and down. But you have no centers to replace and don't have to store blocks AND tools. We use the DAC Dual-Center Blocker, which after looking at their online catalog, seems to be discontinued. Might be able to find a rebuild.