FairTax.org

[Leo Hadley Jr]

I see a lot of political threads in this forum so I pose the question, How do you guys feel about the fair tax movement? Are you for it or against it and why? I have posted this question in some other non optical forums and have been amazed at the results. Lets see how the Optical industry feels.

Family members of IRS agents and HR Block employees need not respond.

[obxeyeguy]

The link is not opening, so I will try later before voting.

[shanbaum]

There were some threads on this a few years ago:

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...light=fair+tax

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...light=fair+tax

[For-Life]

I have studied the fair tax system. On paper, it seems fantastic, as everyone pays the same percent (except the lowest amount), so you are not "taxed" for making more.

In practicality, it is very flawed. Here is the thing, we cannot accept any principle without looking how it would affect other variables. For instance, let's take communism. On paper, communism was a principle that worked. But in reality, it had a negative effect on motivation, food suppliers and farmers, and inspiration. Plus, it did not consider the political corruptness that came forth with the needed dictatorship of the system.

With FairTax, what happens is society has to raise the taxes of most of the lowest income makers to supplement that lower taxes for the highest income earners. Now, it plans to do this by taxing sales instead of income. It would tax consumption at around 30% and put the brunt of it on the lowest income earners (actually, middle class, since the lowest class would still find relief in the plan). This would not only greatly reduce the income power of the middle class folk, but would hurt consumption in the nation. We have to keep in mind what a person who makes $45k spends his/her money on versus someone who makes $500k.

Next, this would have a major negative effect on domestic retailers. Many consumers will be increasing their international purchases, because they would be able to avoid paying the significant consumption tax. This has been proven with the GST introduced in Canada, where people started buying their product in the US, to avoid the tax. Now there is the argument that more businesses would re-located to that nation, because they do not have to pay income taxes. But let's face it, income tax is by far not the only barrier to these businesses re-locating to the US. In Van Heusan can get someone in Indonesia to make its shirts for $10 a week instead of $1000, the income tax is not the deal breaker.

There would also be a huge increase in the black market. People would seek to avoid paying the huge consumption tax by using the black market instead. With that you would see an increase in crime and gang violence.

[Leo Hadley Jr]

I have studied the fair tax system. On paper, it seems fantastic, as everyone pays the same percent (except the lowest amount), so you are not "taxed" for making more.

In practicality, it is very flawed. Here is the thing, we cannot accept any principle without looking how it would affect other variables. For instance, let's take communism. On paper, communism was a principle that worked. But in reality, it had a negative effect on motivation, food suppliers and farmers, and inspiration. Plus, it did not consider the political corruptness that came forth with the needed dictatorship of the system.

With FairTax, what happens is society has to raise the taxes of most of the lowest income makers to supplement that lower taxes for the highest income earners. Now, it plans to do this by taxing sales instead of income. It would tax consumption at around 30% and put the brunt of it on the lowest income earners (actually, middle class, since the lowest class would still find relief in the plan). This would not only greatly reduce the income power of the middle class folk, but would hurt consumption in the nation. We have to keep in mind what a person who makes $45k spends his/her money on versus someone who makes $500k.

Next, this would have a major negative effect on domestic retailers. Many consumers will be increasing their international purchases, because they would be able to avoid paying the significant consumption tax. This has been proven with the GST introduced in Canada, where people started buying their product in the US, to avoid the tax. Now there is the argument that more businesses would re-located to that nation, because they do not have to pay income taxes. But let's face it, income tax is by far not the only barrier to these businesses re-locating to the US. In Van Heusan can get someone in Indonesia to make its shirts for $10 a week instead of $1000, the income tax is not the deal breaker.

There would also be a huge increase in the black market. People would seek to avoid paying the huge consumption tax by using the black market instead. With that you would see an increase in crime and gang violence.

Great Points Here,
I really want to hear the negatives because the positives seem to good to be true. The fact is, we need a new system. The Fed Income tax is so complex, even the IRS agents do not understand it. You need to hire a pro to do your taxes. If you do not, you will pay more than you have too.

[For-Life]

I agree, there are many problems with our system and am glad you are keeping an open mind.

I think, unfortunately, we get such a bad taste in our mouth about a system that we start looking for anything to replace it. One poster said recently about another problem that "anything is better than what we got." That is a very dangerous mindset.

[bob_f_aboc]

I agree, there are many problems with our system and am glad you are keeping an open mind.

I think, unfortunately, we get such a bad taste in our mouth about a system that we start looking for anything to replace it. One poster said recently about another problem that "anything is better than what we got." That is a very dangerous mindset.

If I recall correctly, that was the majority mindset of this forum in the months leading up to the last election.

Why is it dangerous now, but was OK 6 months ago?





Sorry for hijacking the thread Leo! I voted yes. I think the fair tax would be a great plan once fully investigated and perhaps implemented in stages over several years.

[Johns]

If I recall correctly, that was the majority mindset of this forum in the months leading up to the last election.

Why is it dangerous now, but was OK 6 months ago?

Now that the election is over, I am of the same mindset!:D:D:D


I voted yes. Class envy? This would nip a lot of it in the bud. You spend, you pay.

Hurt retailers? Not a bit. If you want it, you'll pay for it.

[Jubilee]

The problem is that the rich can spend more wisely than the poor. A pair of higher quality shoes that costs $100 can last 10 years. The people who are buying their shoes at Wallyworld are having to replace them even 6-8 months cause they last only that long, but costs $15 which they can pay now, instead of that $100. So over time, they pay MORE money in taxes, simply cause they can't afford to buy the higher quality items. It also represents a bigger portion of their livable budget. 20% of 50K is a heck of a lot harder to deal with than 20% of 500K. While yes there is a 10x differential in the amount being paid, chances are the people with 400k will still be able to afford daycare, health insurance and a home.. compared to a family of 4 trying to live on 40K.

[Leo Hadley Jr]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?...N&hl=en&tab=wv#

[GAgal]

I am a true blue capitalist and unashamed of it. I believe

1. If I earn it I should be able to keep as much of it as possible
2. I, and other business owners, am being taxed to death by the government. I pay taxes on the equipment, the inventory, the number of employees I have, etc., etc. and then I have to pay taxes on my income (double taxation was a main reason for the Revolutionary War, BTW)
3. Equal taxation would eleviate this excess form of taxation because it is designed to take the place of all federal income taxes including corporate income taxes, capital gains tax, payroll taxes, Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, gift taxes, and estate taxes

Now, I am not naive. I know that there will still be attempts at tax evasion, but I feel that it would be harder to avoid taxation under this system than it is now. Currently, the IRS is so handicapped by its own laws and personnel problems (Daschle anyone?), that it is almost impossible to catch even a handful of those who are evading their taxes. I also that it will be years before I, or anyone else, will see any real benefit from a change in the tax law.

[For-Life]

If I recall correctly, that was the majority mindset of this forum in the months leading up to the last election.

Why is it dangerous now, but was OK 6 months ago?





Sorry for hijacking the thread Leo! I voted yes. I think the fair tax would be a great plan once fully investigated and perhaps implemented in stages over several years.

I disagree. I do not believe people had that was the major reason why people voted why they did.

and it is ALWAYS dangerous, whether it happened 6 months ago or not.

[For-Life]

Now that the election is over, I am of the same mindset!:D:D:D


I voted yes. Class envy? This would nip a lot of it in the bud. You spend, you pay.

Hurt retailers? Not a bit. If you want it, you'll pay for it.

If you want it, you'll pay for it...in Mexico or Canada or Europe or the black market where it is 30% cheaper

Also, there is the whole idea of impulse buys that happen at a great level

[For-Life]

I am a true blue capitalist and unashamed of it. I believe

1. If I earn it I should be able to keep as much of it as possible
2. I, and other business owners, am being taxed to death by the government. I pay taxes on the equipment, the inventory, the number of employees I have, etc., etc. and then I have to pay taxes on my income (double taxation was a main reason for the Revolutionary War, BTW)
3. Equal taxation would eleviate this excess form of taxation because it is designed to take the place of all federal income taxes including corporate income taxes, capital gains tax, payroll taxes, Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, gift taxes, and estate taxes

Now, I am not naive. I know that there will still be attempts at tax evasion, but I feel that it would be harder to avoid taxation under this system than it is now. Currently, the IRS is so handicapped by its own laws and personnel problems (Daschle anyone?), that it is almost impossible to catch even a handful of those who are evading their taxes. I also that it will be years before I, or anyone else, will see any real benefit from a change in the tax law.

Wasn't the cause of the war having taxes imposed on people by officials that were not elected by the people?

Also, if you think you are taxed to death now, wait until the fair tax increases your taxation to give the high income individuals a break.

[Johns]

If you want it, you'll pay for it...in Mexico or Canada or Europe or the black market where it is 30% cheaper

And I suppose that isn't happening now, and with income that is not being reported?

Don't worry, it'll never happen. It's the government's job to get bigger, not better.

[For-Life]

And I suppose that isn't happening now, and with income that is not being reported?

Don't worry, it'll never happen. It's the government's job to get bigger, not better.

oh, it is happening, but it's affects are not taking out retailers. And the gang violence is based mostly on drugs. This black market will expand.

Finally, we are correcting a flaw with another flaw.

And who said anything about growing government?

[Johns]

And who said anything about growing government?

So long as we keep our present system, the government will continue to add layer upon layer of staff, regulations, and bureaucracy. It's like a weed on Miracle Grow...

Why would they ever want to change that?

[GAgal]

Wasn't the cause of the war having taxes imposed on people by officials that were not elected by the people?

Also, if you think you are taxed to death now, wait until the fair tax increases your taxation to give the high income individuals a break.

Taxation without representation was just part of the issue and used as a catch phrase. Worked though, cause it's still remembered.

And the proposed taxation rate is 23% on the fair tax, whereas I'm currently paying a little over 30% when you add ALL the taxes I'm paying

[For-Life]

Taxation without representation was just part of the issue and used as a catch phrase. Worked though, cause it's still remembered.

And the proposed taxation rate is 23% on the fair tax, whereas I'm currently paying a little over 30% when you add ALL the taxes I'm paying

the problem with a lot of the proposed rates is that they are being "sold" to you. There is no way that the government would be able to pay for its services with a 23% consumption tax. So they have a low proposed system to try to sell it to you, but in reality would just either cut out most service or create even more debt.

[GAgal]

but in reality would just either cut out most service or create even more debt.

I'm okay with less services. I think gov't is too big anyway.

[Johns]

So they have a low proposed system to try to sell it to you, but in reality would just either cut out most service or create even more debt.

Cut services? Fine with me also!

Cut away!:cheers:

[Leo Hadley Jr]

If we do not implement the fair tax, the goverment will impose a national sales tax anyway to pay for the stimulus. You can take that to the bank.
Then we can pay both taxes!!!

My gripe with the current system is the complexity of it. You can have three different accountants do your taxes and they will come up with three different amounts. Its ridiculous that I have to pay someone to get the best deal.

What I do like about the fair tax is, everyone pays. This includes illegals, tourists, drug dealers etc...etc.
If you spend, you pay. I do not see the arguement for tax evasion either. How many people are actually evading state sales tax? How would it be different with a Fed sales tax?

[For-Life]

If we do not implement the fair tax, the goverment will impose a national sales tax anyway to pay for the stimulus. You can take that to the bank.
Then we can pay both taxes!!!

My gripe with the current system is the complexity of it. You can have three different accountants do your taxes and they will come up with three different amounts. Its ridiculous that I have to pay someone to get the best deal.

What I do like about the fair tax is, everyone pays. This includes illegals, tourists, drug dealers etc...etc.
If you spend, you pay. I do not see the arguement for tax evasion either. How many people are actually evading state sales tax? How would it be different with a Fed sales tax?

everyone pays, but only if they purchase through the legitimate market.

Take cigarettes for instance. When the Canadian government raised the taxes on tobacco, the Hells Angels got involved and opened up a black market for the product. The Hells Angles have grown because of it.

So no, you will not get tax evasion, but you will get underground markets and more international spending.

As for a sales tax, yes the government probably will eventually introduce one, but a 3-5% tax is quite different than a 25% one.

[Leo Hadley Jr]

everyone pays, but only if they purchase through the legitimate market.

Take cigarettes for instance. When the Canadian government raised the taxes on tobacco, the Hells Angels got involved and opened up a black market for the product. The Hells Angles have grown because of it.

So no, you will not get tax evasion, but you will get underground markets and more international spending.

As for a sales tax, yes the government probably will eventually introduce one, but a 3-5% tax is quite different than a 25% one.

What percentage of people are going to get their smokes from the Hells Angels? I am sure the ATF in America would be all over that. Yes, there will be black market for some items, we have them now. That small amount pales in comparison to the evasion we have now.

I have absolutely no problem paying 25% Fed sales tax instead of what I am paying now. I wouldnt care if it was 35% if I took home my entire check. At least it would be fair and transparent. There are over 20,000 pages of income tax code. You could study it for years and still not understand it. Even H+R Block pays some hefty fines for making mistakes.

[For-Life]

What percentage of people are going to get their smokes from the Hells Angels? I am sure the ATF in America would be all over that. Yes, there will be black market for some items, we have them now. That small amount pales in comparison to the evasion we have now.

I have absolutely no problem paying 25% Fed sales tax instead of what I am paying now. I wouldnt care if it was 35% if I took home my entire check. At least it would be fair and transparent. There are over 20,000 pages of income tax code. You could study it for years and still not understand it. Even H+R Block pays some hefty fines for making mistakes.

What percentage of people went to speakeasies during prohibition? To me, it is not about evasion as much as the increase in gangs.