i.terminal vs. The Center vs. Cybereyes

[opti123]

Greetings,

I'm a new Optiboard member and and am delighted to join. I assist my Optometrist wife with business matters, and would appreciate your input on a question. I've already searched the forums and have not found much on this subject.

Our staff has show a lot of interested in the Zeiss I.Terminal project, primarily because of it's accuracy claims regarding PD and other measurements.

It also has some "smart mirror" capabilities and I've read some good Optiboard posts on "smart mirror" capabilities.

Here are my questions:

1. Does anybody have experience with the I.Terminal product? If so, is it as good as Zeiss claims?
2. Is it worth the price to get the measurement capability?
3. Does anybody have experience with AIT's "The Center" product? It seems to offer greater ease of use but less in the way of "smart mirror" capabilities. I've you have one, how do you like it, and do you think it's worth it?
4. Same question for a similar product called Cybereyes.

I'm not sure how widely used these devices are, but I'd love any input that you may have.

Thanks!

[Fezz]

Welcome to Optiboard!

[Chris Ryser]

Greetings,


It also has some "smart mirror" capabilities and I've read some good Optiboard posts on "smart mirror" capabilities.

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[kdavenport]

Both of our stores have the I-terminal. It has a great wow factor for patients and it shows your office is cutting edge on technology. With that in mind wow factors won't necesarily pay the bills. It is really good if you are selling lenses like the sola hdv or the ziess individual. One key component is the frame has to be adjusted before taking the measurements or they will not be accurate. It also allows me to see how much of their reading area the will have with the chosen frame .

[Barry Santini]

I am attracted to the qualities and benefits of the Zeiss I-Terminal. However, conventionally, when you have to troubleshoot a problem, you will "remark" and check the lenses in fron of the client. With I-Terminal, you *cannot* recheck a *glazed* pair of frames.

What do you think of this (I, for one, see it as a potential problem/issue, possibly negating the proposed benefits in fitting)?

Barry

[LisaWilson]

You are welcome and encouraged to contact CyberImaging to learn more about our products. I am in the marketing dept at Cyber and don't want to turn this board into a pitch, but we be would be happy to take you thru the program and show you the features and benefits. In addition to measurements and "smart mirror" capabilities, we have a web based virtual frame try on that practices can offer on their web site. Please visit us at www.cyber-imaging.com

Below is an email we got this week from Dr. Bettelheim in CA. These are the typical comments we get and would be happy to provide more references and examples.

Sincerely,
Lisa Wilson

From: eabod1@earthlink.net [mailto:eabod1@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:10 PM
To: Shari Hurst
Subject: Re: New Credit Card #

Hi, Shari
Overall, January has been fine- office busier than last year (also, Cybereyes doubled our A/R dispense rate).
Eric Bettelheim

[opti123]

Thank you Lisa. We are currently talking to Jim Barnette of your firm about CyberEYES. We need to really understand it and we're working on it.

[Darryl Meister]

However, conventionally, when you have to troubleshoot a problem, you will "remark" and check the lenses in fron of the client. With I-Terminal, you *cannot* recheck a *glazed* pair of frames...

Barry, Please keep in mind that the i.Terminal is a digital centration device for fitting lenses. Once the lenses have actually been fabricated to the specified dimensions, you can remark and check the accuracy of the finished results as you normally would. And you can certainly compare the results of "glazed" lenses against the results produced by the i.Terminal.

[IndianaOD]

We will be trialing an Optikam system here in a week or so. Does anyone have a comparison for this system? I think its optikam.com

Thanks

[Barry Santini]

Barry, Please keep in mind that the i.Terminal is a digital centration device for fitting lenses. Once the lenses have actually been fabricated to the specified dimensions, you can remark and check the accuracy of the finished results as you normally would. And you can certainly compare the results of "glazed" lenses against the results produced by the i.Terminal.

Ok! But then, if I can "recheck" the glazed eyewear as I "normally" would, what advantages would the eye terminal then deliver?

Respectfully,

Barry

[optical24/7]

Ok! But then, if I can "recheck" the glazed eyewear as I "normally" would, what advantages would the eye terminal then deliver?

Respectfully,

Barry

I'll answer that....The elimination of skilled opticians! If I were an exec with a chain ( or like minded optical owner) I would be salivating at the thought of a machine that would let me hire min. wage workers. How much longer till there are interactive components added to this type of equiptment that leads to optician obsolescence?

I don't see how any optician can be for this technology.

[Barry Santini]

I'll answer that....The elimination of skilled opticians! If I were an exec with a chain ( or like minded optical owner) I would be salivating at the thought of a machine that would let me hire min. wage workers. How much longer till there are interactive components added to this type of equiptment that leads to optician obsolescence?

I don't see how any optician can be for this technology.

In spite of my reservations about I terminal and like technology, I'm really willing to keep an open mind about technological progress & developments in this area. Below my name you'll find the predecessors I've owned and used in this technology arena.

Barry
PD Ruler
Seg-Hi gauge
Essel Centromatic
AO/Grolman Fitting Device
Essilor Photcentron
EyeWeb Fitting Terminal
Y stick (to come)

[Darryl Meister]

I'll answer that....The elimination of skilled opticians!

Please keep in mind that the i.Terminal does not necessarily rely on any less skill to operate than a PD ruler. The i.Terminal is simply a better tool for taking measurements.

You can obtain more accurate and more precise measurements with the i.Terminal as well as take position-of-wear measurements for customized progressive lenses quickly and easily. Honestly, as technology in just about every other industry has evolved significantly over the last few decades, I'm surprised that we haven't embraced digital centration technology.

But, beyond the technical capabilities of the i.Terminal, digital centration tools like the i.Terminal enhance the patient experience and instill greater confidence in their purchase. This also represents an effective way to differentiate your practice, while increasing your capture and retention rates.

As a consumer, would you feel more confident purchasing an expensive pair of progressive lenses that were subsequently fitted by marking demo lenses with a Vis-a-Vis pen or progressive lenses that were fitted with a sophisticated digital centration device? As a consumer, myself, I would be more engaged by the i.Terminal.

But then, if I can "recheck" the glazed eyewear as I "normally" would, what advantages would the eye terminal then deliver?

i.Terminal offers more accurate fitting; it does not necessarily influence your ability to evaluate the fabrication quality of the final product.

[Optician1960]

I have had the opportunity to sit in on a laproscopic surgery done by a cardiac surgeon in the last few months. The surgeon, in this case, was not standing over the patient or even sitting next to them while they were performing the operation. The surgeon was sitting across the room seated at the Da Vinci surgical system console while the Da Vinci robot that was working on the patient performed the most precise and exacting surgery that this surgeon had ever performed. I'll spare you the details, but for those who want to know more http://davincisurgery.com/surgery/system/index.aspx

My point is, if a surgeon can perform surgery at measurably higher standards using new technologies (we are talking life and death here), then why not consider developing technologies and then give them a true test to see if they do in fact help opticians to offer improved vision/service to the people who purchase from us? The i-terminal and several other new technologies are looking promissing and I hope to see some great innovations in person at VEE.

[Cherry Optical]

If I were an exec with a chain ( or like minded optical owner) I would be salivating at the thought of a machine that would let me hire min. wage workers.

LoL. I understand your passion. I do not believe the i terminal device is designed to replace Opticians. I actually believe they are designed for being used by highly skilled Opticians. I can't imagine Carl Zeiss Meditec designing a topographer or any measuring device for the purpose of 'any Joe Schmoe' being able to use it. The Zeiss brand is extremely strong and reputable.

Just because you had someone a great fishing pole doesnt mean they will be able to catch a fish.

Adam

[Refractingoptician.com]

[quote=Barry .........
Barry
PD Ruler
Seg-Hi gauge
Essel Centromatic
AO/Grolman Fitting Device
Essilor Photcentron
EyeWeb Fitting Terminal
Y stick (to come)[/quote]


How much does an I-terminal cost ? Does it do a better job than a Grolman ? Is it a prerequisite to advance through the Photocentron , Eyeweb and Y-stick first or can a person go directly to an I-term ?

[Barry Santini]

How much does an I-terminal cost ? Does it do a better job than a Grolman ? Is it a prerequisite to advance through the Photocentron , Eyeweb and Y-stick first or can a person go directly to an I-term ?

I must say that I do try to *not* be so sceptical about new technology, i.e., the geezer/curmudgeon effect, but, from a business standpoint, clients in my area, Metro NY/LI, have felt that the large Photocentron instrument and the Ipseo fitting device were:

1. Unnecessarily time consuming (as in "I gotta go")
2. Counter-intuitive and/or clumsy
3. "I'm paying for this?" (this comment may be a Metro New Yawk phenonmenon).

I think as this technology evolves, we will no doubt integrate this into dispensing practice. But...relying on just basic parameter measurements from any of these newer devices misses, I believe, important nuances that expereinced dispensers bring to the fitting equation:

1. Posture evaluation
2. "Effective" (read: representative) fitting position, i.e., slight slippage)
3. The importance of what the client "got used to", i.e., how there previous lenses worked and were positioned (combined effects of Rx, effective fit, postureal adaptation and usage).

If I employed alot of lesser skilled people, these devices would appeal to me.

And then again, perhaps I *am* a "geezer", and stuck in rationalizing/justifying my ol' ways.

All I can say to these companies is: "Engage me!"

Barry

[optical24/7]

If I employed alot of lesser skilled people, these devices would appeal to me.

Barry

Listen, I love new technology too. And I know it's inevitable that things evolve. But the above statement solidifes exactly what I'm stating.

My corrected curve crystal ball tells me as you see advances with this type of equipment you will also see a decline in skilled opticians.

You can call me a "geezer", but as an optican, this is one technology I'm not going to "embrace".

[Darryl Meister]

My corrected curve crystal ball tells me as you see advances with this type of equipment you will also see a decline in skilled opticians

In all fairness, I have seen complaints on OptiBoard regarding the declining skill of opticians for at least fourteen years now. So I suspect that our problem began long before the i.Terminal was launched in the US. Further, Carl Zeiss Vision enjoys the highest sales of this device in Germany, where the typical optician has completed a three-year diploma program in ophthalmic optics at one of their local technical colleges. Consequently, I really don't think that there is any correlation between digital centration technology and the current skill level of US opticians.

[optical24/7]

Darryl, I'm not picking on the i.Terminal particularly. And in all fairness, Germany (along with most of the modern world countries and some U.S. states) require training and licensure. There are protective mechanisms in place for the optician profession in these locations.

Are you telling me that you don't see this type of technology usurping opticians in the future? When these borgs have inter-active capability, the ability to suggest lens materials based on Rx and frames selection, make suggestions of and explain benifits of adding treatments, take measurements and adjust those measurements for panto, ergonomics, ect., can't you imagine many locations wanting to supplant their skilled opticians with "the machine"?

Will this *future* technology further the need for skilled opticians, or deminish the need?

[Barry Santini]

Darryl, I'm not picking on the i.Terminal particularly. And in all fairness, Germany (along with most of the modern world countries and some U.S. states) require training and licensure. There are protective mechanisms in place for the optician profession in these locations.

Are you telling me that you don't see this type of technology usurping opticians in the future? When these borgs have inter-active capability, the ability to suggest lens materials based on Rx and frames selection, make suggestions of and explain benifits of adding treatments, take measurements and adjust those measurements for panto, ergonomics, ect., can't you imagine many locations wanting to supplant their skilled opticians with "the machine"?

Will this *future* technology further the need for skilled opticians, or deminish the need?

I've emphasized the absolute need for all skilled opticians to constantly practice and improve their fitting and adjustment skills.

No "Borg" device will ever replace the hands of a truly skilled optician, IMHO.

Barry

[allanon]

I have and love CyberEyes... and I only hire skilled opticians. One doesn't replace the other, and never will.

[LLano]

LensCrafters is salivating no more. Every store in the chain will have at least one of these by June 2011.

I'll answer that....The elimination of skilled opticians! If I were an exec with a chain ( or like minded optical owner) I would be salivating at the thought of a machine that would let me hire min. wage workers. How much longer till there are interactive components added to this type of equiptment that leads to optician obsolescence?

I don't see how any optician can be for this technology.

[Yeap]

welcome to optiboard.

we have Zeiss i-Terminal, Essilor Visioffice and Anyview Plus (3rd party digital dispensing device from Korea). honestly i still doubt that the 'accuracy' you mean, what is the golden standard that you refer to? but 1 thing for sure is these equipment are reliable and consistent when taking the measurement. we have run a simple test compare to pupilometer with 7 different staffs on the same patient.

as some of the member mentioned, the frame has to be well adjusted before any measurement to be taken. secondly for full frame eyewear, i will recommend you to try it out without the dummy lens to reduce glaring on the dummy and causing some measurement error.

if possible try out a few set before decide as they are all have some pro and cons as well as the operating method. pick the one you are comfortable with..

[fvc2020]

Well we just purchased not just the I terminal but the i profiler as well. I agree with Darryl, that technology helps raise the confidence in patients. I have 21 years experience and and teach my staff how to be darn good opticians. I expect with this technology in my office they best be able to explain it, demostrate it, still troubleshoot it, pre adjust it etc with the best of them. IF the experience for my patient is better then that is all that matters....Oh by the way Darryl thanks for the help with with my newsletter(you might not realize you helped but you did)


Christina