Internet Sales of Glasses

[eyemanflying]

The internet sale of glasses is simply a sign of the times...and unfortunately will continue for these reasons:

1. Greed from the suppliers to sell to anyone.
2. There will always be cheapskate customers.
3. Any Ophthalmic Board or Committee will be unsuccessful in this fight, and even if they did win, it is near impossible to close an internet based company. (In Canada, we can't even close the illegal 'Not so Great Glasses' chain, and they are retail based with 23 locations.)
4. Internet based companies will continue to grow.
5. Fixed retail operations with high overhead are unable to compete.
6. Did I mention...greed from the suppliers to sell to anyone?

If you could buy a brand new car online with no frills, gimmicks or hassles and was delivered to your door for 70% less than retail, damn straight people would be doing so. Consumers don't always care for service and will cut it out of the equation to achieve huge savings.

We all think we provide 'great service', but do we really? I don't think so. Every consumer's perception on service is different, and I bet half would base service on cost alone, and not the expert advice, comfy leather chair or free cup of coffee they had while choosing their new eyewear.

Mark my words...optical retailers will start offering on-line catalogues and web promotions on their eyewear to capture the low cost sale, and have the consumer pick them up in person at their store. Look at travel agents, 80% are now web based and yet I still see them in malls all over the place.

Not that I support it, just stating my opinion. In these current challenging economic times, sometimes if you can't beat them, join them. Competing against them may actually help slow them down.

It's time for all of us to pull up our socks and change the way we think and operate...2009 is shaping up to be an extremely challenging year.

[chip anderson]

Don't like Eyeman Flying's statements at all, but the Man's right. We have already seen the softlens business drift to the internet and low cost retailers. We have seen a great many of our affluent custom contact lens patient's who many still come to us for custom fitting go to Wally for cheap glasses (they only wear them in bed anyway).
We better adapt or change professions fast.

This doesn't mean that the high roller patient who wants the special super-zoomo Hoya laser cut lenses with the custom platinum jeweled frame will disappear, but there will be less of them (both due to lasic , which they can afford, and less afflluent people available.

It means that if we are going to survive on this, we better be very, very good at it.

Chip

[For-Life]

When it comes down to it, only a small portion of the market will be lossed to it. The reason is not even the lenses and fitting. Let me ask you, how many of you have had a model in the office missing a particular colour. A client then asked to see a colour, but you did not have it in the store.

EVERYTIME, when you offered to show them a catalogue or website, they wanted to see it in person!!!


People like to see, touch, feel their frames. Think For-Life is drunk and myopic. Well guess what, clothing sales have been dead on the net. Yes, something cannot be sold on the net. Yeah, some people buy outter wear and stuff that does not need to fit. But when it omes down to it, people buy will not buy stuff that needs to fit.

So, should we worry? Well guess what - These customers who buy online are cheapskates that we do not even like to work with anyway, Let them eat cake, because they will surely choke.

[eyemanflying]

Don't like Eyeman Flying's statements at all, but the Man's right. We have already seen the softlens business drift to the internet and low cost retailers. We have seen a great many of our affluent custom contact lens patient's who many still come to us for custom fitting go to Wally for cheap glasses (they only wear them in bed anyway).
We better adapt or change professions fast.

This doesn't mean that the high roller patient who wants the special super-zoomo Hoya laser cut lenses with the custom platinum jeweled frame will disappear, but there will be less of them (both due to lasic , which they can afford, and less afflluent people available.

It means that if we are going to survive on this, we better be very, very good at it.

Chip

I don't like my own comments either...but it's slowly becoming a reality.

[eyemanflying]

So, should we worry? Well guess what - These customers who buy online are cheapskates that we do not even like to work with anyway, Let them eat cake, because they will surely choke.

The answer to that question is yes. In today's economy, it's pretty darn hard to pick and choose your 'good' customers. In the long run, this type of business model may have you starving, while those 'cheapskates' are well fed and enjoying their cake.
:cheers:

[chip anderson]

While I have lots of "good" customers that I have been seeing for 30 years and expect that most of these will stay with me until one of us either gets too senile or dies to need the other.
I also have lost more customers than most of you will have in your carrier to:
The origional referer died or retired and the new doctor had his own operation, "I felt like it would make him mad if I didn't get them from him."
I wouldn't get my contacts anywhere else but I only wear my glasses at night and they are cheaper at Wally's.
My new doctor told me he got his lenses from you (a lie).
My new doctor tole me you had retired (or died).
It's just so much closer to my home to go there.
It's so much cheaper on the internet.
Well, my doctor "gave me some new lenses (trials)" while I was in for an eye exam.
"My doctor gave me a coupon for 20 % off at thier optical.
Lots of similar comments sometimes with the comment that I know the ones I got there were probably junk, but they are so cheap.
The way contact lens patients (at least those with disposable) leave our practice (I know I haven't gotten that much surrlier in the last decade) I hardly wonder why I fool with them at all. You sure can't make a living fitting, transplants, keratoconnus, super high cylinders, and multi-focals if the practioner and the discount houses sew up all the easy patients. Geeze guys we used fit the more difficult things at a loss feeling we were helping humanity while making a fairly good living on the teen age myopes.
Now if I see a teen ager, she's got some sort of terrific eye problem..
The business is changing and I for one don't seem to be evolving fast enough.
If I have to evolve into one of the opticians that thinks he is in "sales" I'd much rather sell something that requires no expertise, no libility, and no service.
Chip

[Refractingoptician.com]

The answer to that question is yes. In today's economy, it's pretty darn hard to pick and choose your 'good' customers. In the long run, this type of business model may have you starving, while those 'cheapskates' are well fed and enjoying their cake.
:cheers:

One company self proclaims to be shipping 4500 orders per day . That includes 500 pair per day of eyeglasses PER DAY !!


Unless you believe that COO is actively trying to change the legislation to stop this , then I can't see why they should they should be paid their renewal fees .

Withholding funds from them is the only way to send them a "wake up signal " .

You can't stop internet sales and internet dispensing by trying to police something like the RHPA through civl courts ,,, you have to change the legislation .

Two years ago they suspended two licenses in the GG case but never did revoke the licenses pending disciplinary hearings which 2 years later they are only barely getting around to ... and that is turning into a farce .

We should all take our licenses off the wall in protest , withhold the renewal fees , and demand the legislation be changed immediately , not ten years down the road .

Think about it, one company alone shipping 500 pairs of eyeglasses per day. In two days that is more than the average optician might do in one year. Are they paying licensing fees ?

[For-Life]

The answer to that question is yes. In today's economy, it's pretty darn hard to pick and choose your 'good' customers. In the long run, this type of business model may have you starving, while those 'cheapskates' are well fed and enjoying their cake.
:cheers:

We cannot completely change our business model during these tough times, because it will have long term negative effects. Many of us has spent a long time and put in a lot of hard work to establish our business. We cannot destroy that to become an assembly line of junk. Once you go in that direction, it is very hard to stop it.

Also, what are you going to do? Sell glasses for $59? The amount of sales you do never pays the bills. The total income you do (cash) does. What many people do not understand is if you lower your prices, to be successful, you have to do more sales. Additionally, you do not want to cannibalize your own product with the cheap stuff.

[eyemanflying]

One company self proclaims to be shipping 4500 orders per day . That includes 500 pair per day of eyeglasses PER DAY !!


Unless you believe that COO is actively trying to change the legislation to stop this , then I can't see why they should they should be paid their renewal fees .

Withholding funds from them is the only way to send them a "wake up signal " .

You can't stop internet sales and internet dispensing by trying to police something like the RHPA through civl courts ,,, you have to change the legistalion .

Two years ago they suspended two licenses in the GG case but never did revoke the licenses pending disciplinary hearings which 2 years later they are only barely getting around to ... and that is turning into a farce .

We should all take our licenses off the wall in protest , with hold the renewal fees , and demand the legislation be changed immediately , not ten years down the road .

Thionk about it guys and gals , one company alone shipping 500 pairs of eyeglasses per day. In two days that is more than the average optician might do in one year. Are they paying licensing fees ?

Taking our down our own licences and not paying our fees only hurts ourselves that are properly 'licenced' professionals, not the company that's non-licenced producing the 500 per day.

[eyemanflying]

We cannot completely change our business model during these tough times, because it will have long term negative effects. Many of us has spent a long time and put in a lot of hard work to establish our business. We cannot destroy that to become an assembly line of junk. Once you go in that direction, it is very hard to stop it.

Also, what are you going to do? Sell glasses for $59? The amount of sales you do never pays the bills. The total income you do (cash) does. What many people do not understand is if you lower your prices, to be successful, you have to do more sales. Additionally, you do not want to cannibalize your own product with the cheap stuff.

Problem is it's mostly good quality products and not all junk.

[rbaker]

Problem is it's mostly good quality products and not all junk.

True, we can not assume that an internet vendor is selling junk. In fact, the only obstacle to meeting the quality criteria of most traditional dispensers is that of obtaining accurate pd's and seg heights.

It would be an interesting experiment to send a pair of glasses to an internet vendor and ask that they be duplicated.

I'm sure that if any of us decided to sell over the internet we would be just as conscious of quality, such as it may be, as we are now.

[For-Life]

Problem is it's mostly good quality products and not all junk.

Again though, there are reasons why people will not buy glasses online (as I previously mention). First off, it is junk, because it is not fitted. Might be able to withstand it getting beaten up, but there is more to quality than if it can be run over with a truck.

The point here is that it does not matter what the online guys are selling. We cannot match them on cost savings. What matters is if we want to carry $59 eyeglasses, we are compromising something. Usually, it is junk.

It is like Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart can sell good quality eyewear. It is not in our best interest to copy Wal-Mart's products and services, because Wal-Mart gets its products cheaper than us. You want to fight on price, you will be a loser. So fight on something else. Quality, service, promotions, product, designs, looks, feels, ect.

[Christosfer]

While I have lots of "good" customers that I have been seeing for 30 years and expect that most of these will stay with me until one of us either gets too senile or dies to need the other.
I also have lost more customers than most of you will have in your carrier to:
The origional referer died or retired and the new doctor had his own operation, "I felt like it would make him mad if I didn't get them from him."
I wouldn't get my contacts anywhere else but I only wear my glasses at night and they are cheaper at Wally's.
My new doctor told me he got his lenses from you (a lie).
My new doctor tole me you had retired (or died).
It's just so much closer to my home to go there.
It's so much cheaper on the internet.
Well, my doctor "gave me some new lenses (trials)" while I was in for an eye exam.
"My doctor gave me a coupon for 20 % off at thier optical.
Lots of similar comments sometimes with the comment that I know the ones I got there were probably junk, but they are so cheap.
The way contact lens patients (at least those with disposable) leave our practice (I know I haven't gotten that much surrlier in the last decade) I hardly wonder why I fool with them at all. You sure can't make a living fitting, transplants, keratoconnus, super high cylinders, and multi-focals if the practioner and the discount houses sew up all the easy patients. Geeze guys we used fit the more difficult things at a loss feeling we were helping humanity while making a fairly good living on the teen age myopes.
Now if I see a teen ager, she's got some sort of terrific eye problem..
The business is changing and I for one don't seem to be evolving fast enough.
If I have to evolve into one of the opticians that thinks he is in "sales" I'd much rather sell something that requires no expertise, no libility, and no service.
Chip

I used to think that the best thing to do is define your niche and be great at it. Now I am beginning to think that we might have to become all things to all people. You want a budget package, I got a budget package. You want "French made" frames (stamped made in France anyway), I've got those too, and I can put whirly gig lens-a-ma-jigs in them too. How about glasses in an hour, no problem. You want to use your old drill mount frame and customize the shape a little, and with a progressive? I'll be right back! Go get a nice latte in the lounge while I whittle you some new temples for that 1978 chassis. Your total today will be ...

I know that in sales, at least where I am at, I said sales didn't I :(, we are supposed to say yes. I gotta tell ya, I really like saying NO!

Most days selling glasses on the internet sounds like a nice deal. Take some FAQ's via email. "How do I get my glasses fitted?" Go to Walmart.
"Why can't I read with these progressives?" You are trying to hard. Walmart has free eyeglass service try there.

Most Americans now want crap, and they want it fast, and they want it cheap. How do we change the culture? People wait 10 minutes for a dispense and get huffy. I can't even sit through a red light anymore without getting grumpy!

I think we should all conspire to sell glass lenses again.

Merry Christmas

[MarcE]

Problem is it's mostly good quality products and not all junk.

No, it's mostly junk.

1.57 "High-index"! In a rimless! In a drill! Total crap. You can't even get it adjusted before it chips. It will turn yellow in one year. But you will never see that because the hard coat will peel in 60 days.

Let's see, you don't get to see it or touch it or try it one before you buy it.

You don't get it fitted or any advice on sizing, style or suitability for your Rx.

You don't get a proper PD, SH or other proper measurement.

You get no consultation with a qualified person. You get no adjustments or warranty support.

WHen you buy online you aren't getting a better deal, you are getting less service.

It's no different than buying an auto part from the parts store and installing it yourself vs. taking the car to a mechanic and having them supply the part and install it.

I just had to reorient the thread since this is on "general optics"

[For-Life]

and, you cannot use your medical plans for it.

I heard this story about how this lady used to always buy $600 eyeglasses. That is what her plan covered. So she went online and bought five pairs for $100 each. First, the plan only covers one pair. So if that one pair is only $100, you only get $100. Second, the plan did not cover any of the glasses, because it was not done through a legitimate business. Finally, she could not see through either pair, so she just threw away $600.

It is like buying a car for $1000. May be a deal compared to a brand new Honda, but if it does not start, it is pretty useless.

[rbaker]

In platoon leaders class at Quantico it was beaten into our thick heads again and again.

"Never Underestimate Your Enemy"

[DocInChina]

In platoon leaders class at Quantico it was beaten into our thick heads again and again.

"Never Underestimate Your Enemy"

Well said. Ignoring the "enemy" will not make them go away. Not addressing the "enemy" will only make them stronger. If all the non-Lenscrafter businesses had 100% boycotted Lux after the purchase of Lenscrafters would the market look different today? Would Lux have had the capital for its retail expansion if a concerted, organized effort had been made at the time to withhold purchases and give business to other non-competing manufacturers? The bulk of the 3 O's rolled over then and accepted it.

Online and 1800 contact lens replacement services have been around for more than 10 years. IMHO, the 3 O's have pretty much resigned themselves to the fact that they lost a good percentage of that market.

Move forward 10+ years and we have fewer independent surfacing labs. The market is being controlled by a few multinational companies and once again the bulk of the 3 O's see no reason to find this alarming.

10 years ago there were few online opticals but the playing field has grown. Newer technologies are devloping to manage the PD's, seg heights, etc. The cost to develop the technology is marginal compared to the revenue that can be generated.

It would be impossible for other manufactures and businesses not to notice how compliant and accepting the 3 O's are based upon recent history. The availble revenue will continue to shrink if all things are kept status quo.

Is it too late to reverse the trends and what has occured in the past? I belive it is because there is no organized group in place to coordinate the 3 O's to stop patronizing companies that have proven to be competitors rather than partners. The first step is for the 3 O's to re-examine their business practices and decide to direct their individual practices internally and work with companies that are true partners rather than competitors.

[rbaker]

Well said. Ignoring the "enemy" will not make them go away. Not addressing the "enemy" will only make them stronger. If all the non-Lenscrafter businesses had 100% boycotted Lux after the purchase of Lenscrafters would the market look different today? Would Lux have had the capital for its retail expansion if a concerted, organized effort had been made at the time to withhold purchases and give business to other non-competing manufacturers? The bulk of the 3 O's rolled over then and accepted it.

Online and 1800 contact lens replacement services have been around for more than 10 years. IMHO, the 3 O's have pretty much resigned themselves to the fact that they lost a good percentage of that market.

Move forward 10+ years and we have fewer independent surfacing labs. The market is being controlled by a few multinational companies and once again the bulk of the 3 O's see no reason to find this alarming.

10 years ago there were few online opticals but the playing field has grown. Newer technologies are devloping to manage the PD's, seg heights, etc. The cost to develop the technology is marginal compared to the revenue that can be generated.

It would be impossible for other manufactures and businesses not to notice how compliant and accepting the 3 O's are based upon recent history. The availble revenue will continue to shrink if all things are kept status quo.

Is it too late to reverse the trends and what has occured in the past? I belive it is because there is no organized group in place to coordinate the 3 O's to stop patronizing companies that have proven to be competitors rather than partners. The first step is for the 3 O's to re-examine their business practices and decide to direct their individual practices internally and work with companies that are true partners rather than competitors.

One of the cases cited to emphasize this universal principal was the defeat of the Chinese Fleet off the mouth of the Yalu River during the First Sino-Japanese War in the late 1800's. Admiral Ding Ruchang had a superior fleet with much larger guns than the Japanese fleet in addition to military advisers from Germany. The Chinese were so confident of their superiority that they neglected training their gun crews and rumor has it that the overconfident gun crews stored contraban foodstuffs in the gun tubes.

The Chinese fleet received a sever beating that most military historians feel they should have won had they not uderestimated their enemy.

[Refractingoptician.com]

Taking our down our own licences and not paying our fees only hurts ourselves that are properly 'licenced' professionals, not the company that's non-licenced producing the 500 per day.

Unfortunately you are wrong .
-- non-licensed companies do not care about your license , they are making their own rules and playing their own game and succeeding at it .
-- in my opinion, the 23 store chain does not display any license that I am aware of and their customers are lined up getting their free eye tests .Did you see an optometry license or even an optician license on the wall ? Yup, not having a license does seem to be NOT hurting them .
-- so tell me again how we are hurting ourselfs ?
--the way I see it , we are getting no value from our licensing boards , the ones that are hurt by licensing is the "professional" because he/she suffers the overhead anad insult of paying for an antiquated business model that is ineffective. We are losing customers to unlicensed operators and then having the pleasure of paying the legal bills for years to defend what can not be defended with the current business model .

-- COO to my knowledge has not even been running any Public Awareness Ads . The public is not being protected . The public does not even know what an optician is nor does the public know anything about the licensing that is required . COO abandoned us and the public by failing both of us . They failed the most basic thing ....advertising the name brand , defending the name brand and telling the public what the name brand means .

Eyeman , remove your license for a week and remove your badge . At the end of the week , you tell me how you hurt yourself ? How many customers noticed ?

We have to send a strong, clear and very loud signal to our licensing bodies and tell them defiantly that they must change !

Tell me this eyeman , do University Professors go on strike ? Do they cease work and picket ? Tell me again how those professionals are hurting themselves ?

Seems to me that they are so high up on the pay scale and benefit scale becasue THEY REFUSE TO ROLE OVER AND PLAY DEAD like opticians do . Would University Professors be where they are today if an optician had been in charge of their future ?

[eyemanflying]

Unfortunately you are wrong .
-- non-licensed companies do not care about your license , they are making their own rules and playing their own game and succeeding at it .

-- so tell me again how we are hurting ourselfs ?

--the way I see it , we are getting no value from our licensing boards , the ones that are hurt by licensing is the "professional" because he/she suffers the overhead anad insult of paying for an antiquated business model that is ineffective.

Eyeman , remove your license for a week and remove your badge . At the end of the week , you tell me how you hurt yourself ? How many customers noticed ?

Tell me this eyeman , do University Professors go on strike ? Do they cease work and picket ? Tell me again how those professionals are hurting themselves ?

Seems to me that they are so high up on the pay scale and benefit scale becasue THEY REFUSE TO ROLE OVER AND PLAY DEAD like opticians do . Would University Professors be where they are today if an optician had been in charge of their future ?

First, if you're based in Ontario and I assume you are, I sure hope that 'refractingoptician' is simply your handle and that you are not a refracting optician in Ontario. Otherwise, you are also in breach of performing a controlled act.

Second, this got a bit off topic...the GG debate and COO debate is beating a dead horse. But I will comment. The RHPA in Ontario for Opticians clearly indicates that a professional licensing board is required and mandatory for all of it's registered members...so yes, we only hurt ourselves by suspending our payment of fees and not supporting our board, even though they have their rose coloured glasses on and their heads in the sand.

If we self deregulated (and that's what non-payment of fees would eventually do) then it's legal free reign for everyone and there may be a GG type business on every street corner. So, tell me, how does that help us??? It doesn't.

Third, university professors are unionized, opticians in Ontario are not. They are mostly paid by goverment money and tuition fees and we are not. They are not a fair apples to apples comparison.

[eyemanflying]

Also Gary, I don't recall ever seeing you at those COO member meetings to voice your opinion and discuss the lack of action and frustration of the GG issue.

[Refractingoptician.com]

To make these statements you have come a long way in your thinking

(1) It's time for all of us to pull up our socks and change the way we think and operate...
(2) We all think we provide 'great service', but do we really?
(3) I don't like my own comments either...but it's slowly becoming a reality.
(4) The answer to that question is yes. In today's economy, it's pretty darn hard to pick and choose your 'good' customers. In the long run, this type of business model may have you starving, while those 'cheapskates' are well fed and enjoying their cake.

but your thinking still has a great distance to cover

So I will tell you this story :

A river flows in one direction until something or someone dams it up and forces the river to flow in another direction . While the dam is being built the waterflow is restricted , but when the dam is completed , then everything down river of it will be left high and dry wondering where the flow of water went .

Picture this and maybe it will help , Governments and licensing boards (to protect the public ) build a dam to control the water (money/vision) flow , to recieve water (money/vision) you must be downriver from their dam and pay user fees to the dam controllers . But one day someone says " I have had enough, I am going to higher ground and I am going to build another dam up river of the present dam (internet sales and GG)" Now when that dam is completed , who controls the water flow ? Everyone downriver will be left dry and wondering where the water (money) went . (notice that only "money" is in brackets now)

While bystanders stood on the river bank throwing stones at the other side (licensing board and association meetings ) others continued to build dams upriver so they would control the flow of water .

All those stones that were thrown (useless meetings), drifted downriver and settled in submission to the bottom of the river bed . But there were a few salmon (customers , internet sales,GG) that managed to swim upstream and jump above the dams and they recolonized & survived upriver . They did not let there flow of water be cut off .

Moral of the story ? If you want to be heard & survive then control the flow of the water .

You are seeing your water flow cut off, & it made you stand up and take notice . You stood up and took notice when the flow was interrupted, but what about the dam controllers ? They have not seen their flow interrupted yet. They still think their water supply will be there tomorrow. To really listen their water flow would have to be interrupted across the country .


Has your water flow been interrupted ? Did this make you stand up and think ?

[eoptics]

I have the following belief in optical business.
Eyeware is not a kind of medication or medical equipment any more but a kind of daily bread or cloth, nowadays. Follow customers taste and you'll know what should be the best for your success.

Techonology is updating rapidly. If you lose your pace, others will pass by you with enough space. Use any modern technology for your optical business ASAP.

Do you agree with me? I am sorry to say that whether you do it or not, I believe it.

God loves all of you!
Marry Christmas!

[Chris Ryser]

Techonology is updating rapidly. If you lose your pace, others will pass by you with enough space. Use any modern technology for your optical business ASAP.

The theme of this thread is actually ON-LINE optic sales.................

Also online opticals have access to the most modern technology so that does not affect or correct the problem. They also have access to your frame wholesalers with the only difference that they pay less.

Doc in China has offered a solution on the "For Professionals Only" forum, so that you could get a finished job, generic frame and lenses at very special prices, but so far everybody seems to be bickering about un-related themes instaed of looking at one solution that was offered.

How about saying............yes good idea............or very bad idea.

[HarryChiling]

ETHICALLY BANKRUPT

The technology of these vendors has one flaw, they are guessing at the biometric data. The rest of the industry is moving towards now taking additional biometric data such as dihedral and panto and incorporating these into the Rx's and the online vendors are guessing at the more simple vertical and horizontal decentrations. If you held a dollar bill to your forehead and took a picture I could use the ratio of the dollar to your pupils in the photo to get a PD and chances are that it would be within a mm if not more accurate, but to date there is NO ACCURATE WAY OF TAKING A SEG HEIGHT WITHOUT A FRAME SITTING PROPERLY ADJUSTED ON A FACE. The frames might not fit, the lenses might not work, etc.

As for the latest technology, since when have we considered 1.53 to be the latest in technology (excluding Trivex)? Have anyone seen the frames offered by a lot of these sites? Their dollar store reader quality? I can do better than that and none of the patients that see me are online caliber eyeglass patients, I don't envy their model I despise it. It's a cheap parlor trick that anyone here can emulate. If anyone is interested I can tell you how to set up in less than 3 hours an entire eyeglass site, but I can't tell you how to professionally fit and dispense eyewear in less than about 6 months tops and that's if I had your total attention even then I would be cutting a lot out. I hope that anyone attempting to purchase eyeglasses online heads the old roman warning "Caveat Emptor".


PS - Do not actually e-mail me to help you start a site you won't like my response.