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Thread: A/R Coated lenses ?????

  1. #1
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    Question A/R Coated lenses ?????

    O.K. you vast knowledge and experience of Optiboard members.
    What method of cleaning a/r coated lenses has worked best for you and your customers ? I recommend a/r lens cleaners and lens cleaning cloths. I have heard people recommend dishwashing warm soapy water and a soft clean cloth. I know most issues are non-compliance of suggested cleaning methods. Secondly, in your opinion (uh-oh), what lens type do you feel a/r adheres to best ? Our lab will not manufacture some high index lens materials with a/r.

  2. #2
    OptiWizard
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    Soap (non-lotion) and warm H2O work just fine (be sure to recommend rinsing first to wash off any dust). A/R solutions and cleaning cloths are fine for when soap and water isn't available but add a level of complexity not really needed.

    AR coating over a scratch resistant coat (SRC) is ALWAYS preferred over a "naked" lens; the SRC acts sorta like a primer on bare wood before painting. One caveat: certain manufacturers use a UV cured in-mold coating that requires special processing by the AR coater. Be sure to inform them if you are using this product.

    Also, certain combinations of lens materials, center thicknesses, SRC & ARC coatings will result in a lens unable to pass drop-ball.

    Other than the above, AR coating companies should have no problems with any lens, no matter what the index.

    As a general rule, the more nformation you provide to your coater -- such as material, thickness, type of SRC, UV attenuating coatings (bad), etc. -- the better the results you'll have.

  3. #3
    OptiBoard Professional Mike Fretto's Avatar
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    I've also heard that lemon additives in dish soap can break down AR coatings. Also as Jim touched on UV protection can cause adhesion problems.
    Mike

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    This is my first intrusion on optiboard and because I do work for a company that provides multilayer coatings for lenses I have found this forum very interesting.

    This is personal, but I wouldn't touch any lens (add tint or UV) which already has an in mold coating or an already coated surface.

    The reason is simple, the coater would have, or to strip the lens in order to apply the tint or UV, or would have to soak the lens (tintablle hardcoats) in a solution that is relatively hot.

    This method will create uncontrolled thermal expension and contraction which will affect the lens's substratum and the coating in different ways. This could also very easily damage the lens beyond repair.
    As for stripping the lens, if the substratum is of a lesser quality the same result (damaged substratum) will most probably happen.

    As for cleaning a coated lens, just be sure to use a soft detergent which doesn't leave any residual film on the lens.

    Please, do not hold me accountable for the english spelling errors that I might (and will) do as I mainly speak french.

    Tibor ::)

  5. #5
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    lens cleaner

    I just happen to have before me a summary of a study done at COLTS labs as published in 20/20 in May 1999. Various cleaning methods were tested from shirt tails to lens cleaners and cloths. Here is a quick summary:
    - material such as clothing and rags cause scratching
    - paper products such as paper towels varied widely in performance due to quality differences (By the way, from my own experience, I know to remind people not to use facial tissues with "lotion inside" to clean lenses!)
    - Glass cleaners such as Windex had pH levels which caused no immediate detrimental effects, but which had a "high probabilty of damage to coatings" in tests which simulated long term care habits.
    - Mild dish soap, when combined with the proper kind of cloth and a thorough rinsing, caused no damage.
    - The performance of cleaner designed for lenses varied greatly.

    In the end, they recommended "A neutral dishwashing detergent or a cleaner specifically designed for an A-R coating."

    Hope it helps!
    Tammy
    Nanofilm Sales Support

  6. #6
    OptiWizard
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    To add to Tammy's post, there's a character at Nanofilm (Scott somethingorother) who has some very strong feelings that not all dishwashing detergents are created equal...in fact, some may be potentially damaging. Unfortunately, I don't remember which were which. Tammy, any chance of you researching that a bit?

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Wow, English is my first language, and I struggle using the word 'substratum'! (in fact, I think that's the first time I ever have)
    Welcome to the board. I was going to put something nice and welcoming in French, but avez vous un sandwich au jambon isn't really appropriate :)

    Maria

    Ou est le gare, s'il vous plait?
    Merde, il pleut.
    J'habite dans le Rochdale
    La maison est bleu.

  8. #8
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    Hey...
    I would like a ham sandwich ( didn't have lunch yet) furthermore I really don't know where the station is, sorry.

    Thank you for the welcome.

    Tibor

    p.s. I live in Ahuntsic (Montreal) and my house is brick red :)

  9. #9
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    Exclamation dishsoap on lenses

    Thank you, Jim, for pointing me in the right direction!

    I just went and spoke with Dr. Scott Rickert, our president and one of our PhD's, and he had some interesting things to say! There are two concerns that come with dishsoap- the pH level and the residue. When testing was done in 1999, the dish soap market had not yet taken on the focus it currently has. If you watch soap ads and read the labels on the products, you see that they are increasingly concentrated (higher pH, more caustic, "use 1/3 less!") and they are adding moisturizers (increased residue that is DESIGNED not to wash off!!). The more concentrated soap eats away at the lens (especially at coatings) creating measurable haze. The moisturizers then get into the cracks and create more damage and haze.

    We are actually looking at sponsoring another round of independent tests so we can measure how the changes in dishsoap formulas are affecting lenses. I'll keep you posted of the results!

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy K's Avatar
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    Especially for us gals who use a daily dose of hairspray, the 'lukewarm water and dish-soap' is the only way to go! I simply instruct to rinse their lenses under luke-warm water, touch a finger to the top of the dish-soap bottle, rub the resultant slippery fingers on the lenses, rinse, and dry.
    Now, what to dry with? I like micro-fibre cloths, kept clean by washing in the same manner as the lenses once a week or so. A nice soft towel works wonderfully, to, BUT IMPORTANT!!!! NEVER USE FABRIC SOFTENER ON WHATEVER CLOTH YOU'RE DRYING YOUR GLASSES WITH!!! It creates a NASTY residue after not too long, and so very often its those people who return with lenses so gummed up by the stuff they swear they'll never consent to having the coating again (and have already told all of their friends the horrors of AR).
    Also, in the cleaning-instruction, it can often help to have a badly heat-damaged AR lens handy to show the results of rinsing glasses under hot water.

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder Texas Ranger's Avatar
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    Smilie

    Well, folks ask us all the time what we use in the shop; well we use straight rubbing alcohol; works great! cleans, no residue. We also use nano film cleaner, a really fine product.

  12. #12
    Bad address email on file optigoddess's Avatar
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    For hairspray & soda pop fizz...or anytime facial makeup gets on the lens & gets "smeared" around ....I like to recommend to patients to rinse both sides of the lenses with rubbing alcohol & then use the lens cleaner. I prefer to use the cleaner vs soap/h2o but at our shop we do tell people to use either. Now, after reading some of the posts about the "advancements" in soaps, how HOT water affects the lens -- I always wondered how the lens got THAT foggy...always thought customer was using sandpaper or something...??? !!!! ??? :bbg: I think I will print this post out & show my fellow opticians at work ! Thanks for all the great info.

  13. #13
    OptiWizard
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    Thanks to Tammy D and Nanofilm, we should have a better product and happier patients.

    Shouldn't forget that without OptiBoard, we wouldn't even be here discussing this!

  14. #14
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    Yes...
    Thank you Steve!!
    Thank you Transitions!!
    And thank you to all who participate here!

  15. #15
    Rising Star sparky's Avatar
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    This is a little off topic but does anyone out there have problem with block marks showing up on the ar lenses? I had that encountered that problem before with poly/crizal but never on cr-39 or hi index. At this company we use a different ar and I have been seeing more and more back with these "spider" marks on them. Any ideas?

  16. #16
    opti-tipster harry a saake's Avatar
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    Question chuck marks

    yes, we just had the same problem with chuck marks and we now put the round blue surfacing tape on both sides, seems to work

  17. #17
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    Why do spider marks happen?

    SIMPLE, the spider marks are what we call crazing, it is when the AR part of the coating cracks up very lightly.

    You have to remember that the AR part of the coating is made up of metalic oxydes which don't have the same flexibility as the hard coat or the lens substratum. So when we edge the lens, the pressure that we apply on the lens will flex it (remember high index lenses are much thinner than regular CR39 on center) and that pressure will break up the Ar part of the coating. The coatings are usualy .5 micron thick and approx half of it is the hard coat. Now the hard coat is a plastic type material that can easely support stretching, but the AR is a metal which even though it has a elasticity factor, it is much less than the hard coat's.

    The solution, lower the edgers blocking pressure as much as possible and also when deblocking the lens, do not tear it away or use a deblocker as those tools will also bend out of shape the lens, simply use a pair of pliers and twist of the block.

    This crazing also happens when the lens is edged too thight in the frame, as the lens wil bend out of curvature (increase) and the ar coating will not be able to support the tension.

    If and only if the AR coating is applied with a buffer coating underneath ( in order to comply with security standards in the USA), these problems will most probably not show up. Also remember that whatever procedure that creates an increase in curvature ( Heat, pressure, very rapid temperature changes etc...) can and most probably will affect the AR coating on the lens.

    I which to say that this should not prevent you from using the AR coating as the benefits that they provide are much greater than the little problems that can happen with them. Furthermore with a little care this will not happen. And I can vouch for this as we coat and edge a huge number of lenses everyday.

    Tibor Martz

    Marketing and Technical consultant
    Nikon Optical Canada Inc. :)

  18. #18
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tibor
    This crazing also happens when the lens is edged too thight in the frame, as the lens wil bend out of curvature (increase) and the ar coating will not be able to support the tension.
    I'm glad you mentioned this Tibor - it's always been one of my pet peeves. I recommend that after edging and inserting into the frame, people shine a small halogen light into the edge of the lens. If there's any stress induced crazing, it'll show up under this lighting.


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  19. #19
    Snook Fishin' Optician Specs's Avatar
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    We won't use Crizal stock lenses because of the block marks. We figured we 'd try them, we had the problem with the block marks on each of three consecutive jobs. All were Poly w/Crizal. What's that rule about three strikes...

  20. #20
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    Change sports...

    Try football, they give you a fourth down!

    On a more serious note, not withstanding the manufacturer, the main reasons for crazing coming from edging is or chuck pressure or when deblocking the lens. If care is taken (I'm not saying that it is not ) there should be no problem relative to crazing. I know that it takes some special care to do it but it is well worth the effort.

    Tibor ;)

  21. #21
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    Wink

    Thanks for all of the great a/r cleaning options and recommendations ! This should go over really well at a store meeting with my associates. Who would have ever thought a/r cleaning would lead to other issues with a/r lenses then poly cracking issues. What a great place of information. My experience seconds the recommendations on blue chipping at least the back of an a/r lens ;however, I would not leave the lens blocked up overnight with a blue chip on. I have seen some a/r lenses (non-stock a/r) have the a/r come off !!

    GO GATORS !:D

  22. #22
    Master OptiBoarder sandeepgoodbole's Avatar
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    Blue Jumper Try coke..

    Originally posted by Woofman
    Thanks for all of the great a/r cleaning options and recommendations ! This should go over really well at a store meeting with my associates. Who would have ever thought a/r cleaning would lead to other issues with a/r lenses then poly cracking issues. What a great place of information. My experience seconds the recommendations on blue chipping at least the back of an a/r lens ;however, I would not leave the lens blocked up overnight with a blue chip on. I have seen some a/r lenses (non-stock a/r) have the a/r come off !!

    GO GATORS !:D
    One of my customers reported that Coke is a better shampoo for AR lenses .
    Why not try Scotch as well ?

  23. #23
    sub specie aeternitas Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Heat pans, blowers, etc., can also cause crazing for the reasons mentioned above. Here in Florida, I've also been able to trace some crazing to the glasses being left on the dashboard in the summer heat.

    As to the "imprint" left behind by the blocking pads, I've asked this question before, and I'm almost positive it comes from the stickiness of the pad- not the pressure.

  24. #24
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    I cannot say for sure that the glue on the block cannot create a crazing, but it would have to be mighthy sticky to cause a crazing.

    As mentionned before, AR coating crazing will happen whenever the AR coating's elasticity factor is reached and passed, and this will happen in all of the aforementioned situations that this forum put forward, excessive heat, pressure, bending, deblocking etc...
    I have to this day, see a crazing cause by unglueing a block from a lens.

    The only time I can see this happening is when the multilayer coating was not designed as a one coat system, disparate coatings are not ment to create a molecular bond and at that time it can maybe happen?

    Tibor


  25. #25

    Confused

    Well it might sound outrageous here, but I have heard some car polish gives a good protective clear wax coating on top of the AR coated lenses. Any idea about this suggestion?

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