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Thread: Mirror Method - for fitting progressives

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    Question Mirror Method - for fitting progressives

    I am looking for information for training staff on the mirror method of fitting. I use this method myself, and had some wonderful graphics, etc which I used in previous training sessions, but the files have done a runner. I simply can't locate them.

    I've done a fairly exhaustive search online, and haven't been able to locate anything copyrighted or not. :(

    Does anyone know where I may be able to find this information?

    Thanks for your help.
    Mary Sue

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarySue View Post
    I am looking for information for training staff on the mirror method of fitting. I use this method myself, and had some wonderful graphics, etc which I used in previous training sessions, but the files have done a runner. I simply can't locate them.

    I've done a fairly exhaustive search online, and haven't been able to locate anything copyrighted or not. :(

    Does anyone know where I may be able to find this information?

    Thanks for your help.
    Mary Sue
    Are you talking about having a mirror off to one side to view if your aligned at the same height as your patient before measureing the segment height? If so why not create your own document. Let me know if this is what your lookign for an maybe I can find something in my books somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    Are you talking about having a mirror off to one side to view if your aligned at the same height as your patient before measureing the segment height? If so why not create your own document. Let me know if this is what your lookign for an maybe I can find something in my books somewhere.
    Hi Harry,

    No I am talking about using a mirror on a table flat between you and the client. Marking the pupil and reading centres on the client's lenses or dummy lenses, then viewing a dot or mark in the center to check the eye alignment. I think it is sometimes called the "Lewis" method.

    Thanks
    Mary Sue

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    mirror method

    Hi Mary,

    I am familiar with what you are talking about...

    The 'mirror method' is great for troubleshooting PALs, especially when the client has some kind of vergence issue, cyclo-dextro phoria, ect...

    Here are the steps:

    1. put the PAL markings on the lens.
    2. place the mirror (approx. 8 inches square) in the middle of the dispensing table, flat
    3. place a dot in the middle of the mirror.
    4. have client look at the dot, with their eyewear/demo lenses on
    5. carefully mark the demo lens on the patient, while looking in the mirror...this gives you the exact location of where they converge to read, a more subjective method....I would recommend practicing on co-workers first, it is tricky marking the lenses, kind of like a dentist, working upside down and backwards in a mirror.

    It could be used to fit PALs off the mono subjective near PD, but that is a bit radical.

    : )

    Laurie

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    I've never heard that called the mirror method before or the lewis method. I thought that was a trick my old boss made up. I know what your talking about and I'll take a look through some books and get you some info as soon as I find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Hi Mary,

    I am familiar with what you are talking about...

    The 'mirror method' is great for troubleshooting PALs, especially when the client has some kind of vergence issue, cyclo-dextro phoria, ect...

    Laurie
    You're exactly right Laurie - I think the Lewis method is like an insurance policy - not the be all and end all, but a good edition to what I already do with measurements. What I really need are visuals for a training presentation I am trying to piece together. I may need to take photos myself of posed friends, but I was hoping to avoid that.

    Thanks again -
    Mary Sue

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    I've never heard that called the mirror method before or the lewis method. I thought that was a trick my old boss made up. I know what your talking about and I'll take a look through some books and get you some info as soon as I find it.
    Harry that would be neat, thanks
    Mary Sue

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    If patient is looking at a dot, who needs the mirror? Wouldn't a piece of paper with a dot look just as well?

    Chip

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    Chip

    Draw the progressive markings on the patient's old lens or dummy lens for a new frame. Make sure you get the markings which correspond to your measurements - monocular PD's, and heights, etc. - - You use a datam gauge to transfer the marks, or a lens plot will do as well. Include the bottom circle for reading. When you place a mirror between you - it is possible to identify assymetrical convergence, or an error in your markings. You can also see how far the person drops the eye and their head to read. Someone who drops their eye to the bottom of the frame with a length of 26 mm from eye point won't do well with a shallow prog regardless of the script.

    This allows you to adjust corridor length, etc.

    The mirror lets you see their eye in relation to the markings on the specs. It's a bit confusing to talk about - you really need to see it happening, which is why I'm looking for good visual info on the subject.

    I haven't found one article on the net on this subject - which is pretty suprising to me.

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    If patient is looking at a dot, who needs the mirror? Wouldn't a piece of paper with a dot look just as well?

    Chip
    The mirror is so that you can look back at the person and see that their gaze does truly fall within the NRP on a progressive or bifocal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarySue View Post
    I haven't found one article on the net on this subject - which is pretty suprising to me.
    I didn't have anything in my books at home and upon searching for any reference I found an article in:

    The Ophthalmic Optician
    By Association of Optical Practitioners (Great Britain), British Optical Association
    Published by , 1962
    Item notes: v.2:14-24 (1962)
    Original from the University of California
    Digitized Jun 10, 2008
    I drove down last tuesday to Bethesda, MD and went to the National Institutes of Health Library, they supposedly had a copy but turns out it's missing with a bunch of other copies of the same. I am in the process of getting it through ILL, but that takes some time. I did get a copy, but turns out it's from the wrong volume so back to the drawing board.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post

    I drove down last tuesday to Bethesda, MD and went to the National Institutes of Health Library, they supposedly had a copy but turns out it's missing with a bunch of other copies of the same. I am in the process of getting it through ILL, but that takes some time. I did get a copy, but turns out it's from the wrong volume so back to the drawing board.
    Harry - thank you so much for this. Let me know how you get on. You're fortunate to have that library in driving distance. If it was anywhere near me, my husband might find me missing in action - studying.

    Cheers
    Mary Sue

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarySue View Post
    Harry - thank you so much for this. Let me know how you get on. You're fortunate to have that library in driving distance. If it was anywhere near me, my husband might find me missing in action - studying.

    Cheers
    Mary Sue
    If you mean by close 79 miles one way then sure I'm close. I have family down there and I was headed in the direction anyway and I have a library card there so I thought why not. When I was younger I spent a lottttttttt of time there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    If you mean by close 79 miles one way then sure I'm close. I have family down there and I was headed in the direction anyway and I have a library card there so I thought why not. When I was younger I spent a lottttttttt of time there.
    Thanks for your help regardless.
    MS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Hi Mary,

    I am familiar with what you are talking about...

    The 'mirror method' is great for troubleshooting PALs, especially when the client has some kind of vergence issue, cyclo-dextro phoria, ect...

    Here are the steps:

    1. put the PAL markings on the lens.
    2. place the mirror (approx. 8 inches square) in the middle of the dispensing table, flat
    3. place a dot in the middle of the mirror.
    4. have client look at the dot, with their eyewear/demo lenses on
    5. carefully mark the demo lens on the patient, while looking in the mirror...this gives you the exact location of where they converge to read, a more subjective method....I would recommend practicing on co-workers first, it is tricky marking the lenses, kind of like a dentist, working upside down and backwards in a mirror.

    It could be used to fit PALs off the mono subjective near PD, but that is a bit radical.

    : )

    Laurie
    Laurie,

    I learned about this at Optiboard many years ago. I would add that instead of placing the mirror on the table, I have the client hold the mirror as if it was a book, and at a normal and typical distance. Then I tilt the mirror towards me to observe the position of each eye relative to a reference vertical line that I draw on the lens where I would expect the near PD to be, considering the reading distance and distance PD.
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



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    OptiBoard Apprentice Nikki McGee's Avatar
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    I had an engineer with convergance excess- lots of fun let me tell you- I had fit him in a Kodak Unique and went all the way to the lens disigners at Signet Armorlite to try and help him. As he had a spherical lens, they reccomended swinging the add portion in to help him. It didn't work, but I'm not sure that anything would have worked for him- he ended up happy as a lark in FT28.
    I've never heard of this until I read the posts here. What is the result? If they are not converging where they "should" be (or where the lens is designed for them to be) can it be adjusted? I was under the impression that all progressives were done on a standard convergance.
    ABOC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki McGee View Post
    I had an engineer with convergance excess- lots of fun let me tell you- I had fit him in a Kodak Unique and went all the way to the lens disigners at Signet Armorlite to try and help him. As he had a spherical lens, they reccomended swinging the add portion in to help him. It didn't work, but I'm not sure that anything would have worked for him- he ended up happy as a lark in FT28.
    I've never heard of this until I read the posts here. What is the result? If they are not converging where they "should" be (or where the lens is designed for them to be) can it be adjusted? I was under the impression that all progressives were done on a standard convergance.
    Not all.

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    Better than a lot of CE classes I've been in. I learned my one new thing today.:):cheers:



    And all for the low, low price of admission.
    Last edited by obxeyeguy; 10-28-2008 at 09:06 PM. Reason: add

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki McGee View Post
    If they are not converging where they "should" be (or where the lens is designed for them to be) can it be adjusted? I was under the impression that all progressives were done on a standard convergance.
    Nikki, don't you just love engineers! If you have a non standard convergence, you can use a HOYA ID, ZEISS Individual or RODENSTOCK Freesign. These lenses allow you to change the length of the drop, the inset, and the width of the lens design. If you are going this route, make sure that you get good training on "how" I don't use the Zeiss product much, as the reps here in New Zealand are hopeless at explaining anything about optics, however - I hear it is a good product.

    My favourite free design (my term - not a real technical term) is the HOYA ID as it is available in so many materials - and HOYA does a fab job with aspherics. The SFT coating is pretty amazing as well. The RODENSTOCK is my second favourite as it is a harder designed lens, and available in really large sizes for the massive Sunglass frames people want to wear.

    Standard progressives are slightly different as well - don't assume all have a 2.5 mm shift in or standard inset. Most do - but some, like the SOLA EGO - actually try and change width and length to match the end user's requirements.

    Your lens rep should be your best friend - and the information they provide, if they actually understand optics, is invaluable.

    :cheers:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    Laurie,

    I learned about this at Optiboard many years ago. I would add that instead of placing the mirror on the table, I have the client hold the mirror as if it was a book, and at a normal and typical distance. Then I tilt the mirror towards me to observe the position of each eye relative to a reference vertical line that I draw on the lens where I would expect the near PD to be, considering the reading distance and distance PD.
    Robert - another great tip, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarySue View Post
    Your lens rep should be your best friend - and the information they provide, if they actually understand optics, is invaluable.

    :cheers:
    Thanks for the info MarySue! In the office I currently work we use primarily HOYA products so it is good to know that they have an option in these situations. However it does seem like my lens rep eats and breathes HOYA so sometimes it's hard to get info from him that doesn't seem skewed in their favor, guess thats where you guys come in ;)
    Last edited by Nikki McGee; 10-29-2008 at 03:33 PM.
    ABOC

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    Thumbs up

    Too bad we cant get technical ce hours for this conversation. Very enlightening. Thank you all that have contributed.
    UFRICH:cheers:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikki McGee View Post
    Thanks for the info MarySue! In the office I currently work we use primarily HOYA products so it is good to know that they have an option in these situations. However it does seem like my lens rep eats and breathes HOYA so sometimes it's hard to get info from him that doesn't seem skewed in their favor, guess thats where you guys come in ;)
    Nikki - call another rep. I'll bet the sellers of Zeiss and Rodenstock, Essilor and Shamir would leap over tall buildings to teach you about their products.!

    Like you, I find the information on Optiboard fantastic when I can't find an answer here locally.

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