A/R Penetration

[finefocus]

If the best you offer your patients is a lifestyle that suits their lenses then shame on you. Your and my job is to choose and offer a lens that fits the patients lifestyle not the other way around and if you have lost site of this objective then shame on you.

Shame on me? Shame on anyone who doesn't give their patients the option to see better, at the cost a small amount of caution in handling. The doesn't mean giving up any freedom except the freedom to be careless. MY patients know exactly what the benefits, drawbacks, and tradeoffs are, and nobody comes to me a month after they get their specs and says "why didn't you tell about this"? THEY choose the elements of their eyewear, not me. If you've lost sight of this principle, them shame on you.

[chip anderson]

Here we go nowhere again for no reason.

Give it a rest

[James Peterson]

I have been at, or around 45% for the last 9 months. 99% of my A/R sales are Crizal Avance, and before that, Crizal Alize.

I would like to be at 70% for the remainder of the year.
James:cheers:

[HarryChiling]

Shame on me? Shame on anyone who doesn't give their patients the option to see better, at the cost a small amount of caution in handling. The doesn't mean giving up any freedom except the freedom to be careless. MY patients know exactly what the benefits, drawbacks, and tradeoffs are, and nobody comes to me a month after they get their specs and says "why didn't you tell about this"? THEY choose the elements of their eyewear, not me. If you've lost sight of this principle, them shame on you.

Read the research about the occupation of an auto mechanic and the needs of this patient and the recommended offerings. Your not wrong, your just uninformed. If you were talkign about a second pair like mentioned here kudos to you, but your under the impression that science and marketing are the same thing and what you keep regurgitateing here is marketing rederick.

[HarryChiling]

Here we go nowhere again for no reason.

Give it a rest

The guy is passionately defending a pamphlet about AR and has no problem shouting it from the roof tops. Great profession right this guy can convince half the public that professionals using current research ar wrong and that they must change their ways. If their is something I am missing I would love to hear it but everyone here should have heard by now that their is a such thing as a contraindication for AR, if they haven't then they need to go to AR 101 before jumping in and selling the product.

[chip anderson]

Bravo! Harry


But changing the mind of a sales oriented optician is about as difficult as trying reason with a die hard liberal democrat.
It's a wasted effort.

Chip

[Fezz]

Bravo! Harry


But changing the mind of a sales oriented optician is about as difficult as trying reason with a die hard liberal democrat.
It's a wasted effort.

Chip

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[HarryChiling]

Bravo! Harry


But changing the mind of a sales oriented optician is about as difficult as trying reason with a die hard liberal democrat.
It's a wasted effort.

Chip

Not really us die hard liberal democrats bite so you have no choice but over the internet or a 10 ft pole.

[finefocus]

I'll try one more time. I'm not "sales oriented". This isn't about the money. Got it? It isn't. It's about trusting the intelligence of your patient. Can we agree that coated lenses are better to look through? If not, then I do give up. Then the question is, can a given patient handle them? I trust them to decide after I discuss it with them. My job isn't to decide for them, it's to give them what they need, both info and context, to choose wisely. If the answer is no, OK. Again, this isn't a matter of foisting something I want to sell on some poor unsuspecting patient, it's about not withholding products based on what I think of the wearer. I don't get my dispensing philosophy from pamphlets, and I think of every eyeglass order as a clean sheet of paper. It's worked pretty well for 41 years.

[chip anderson]

Too bad we can't afford to do this. But I really believe that if we gave 100 patients a pair of AR coated and the same patients a pair of non-AR coated lenses. No hype, no sales pitch, no "education" that only 20% at best would come back and say they could tell any difference whatsoever between them (difference from the wearer's side of the lens anyway.)
10% of these would be elated and think they were wonderfull.
50% wouldn't even report back. 10% of those that could tell a difference would say it's a little better but not enough for a big chunk of a hundred dollar bill. And 10 % wouldn't like it at all or would find that the durability was inadequate after eight months of wear.

Chip

[finefocus]

Too bad we can't afford to do this. But I really believe that if we gave 100 patients a pair of AR coated and the same patients a pair of non-AR coated lenses. No hype, no sales pitch, no "education" that only 20% at best would come back and say they could tell any difference whatsoever between them (difference from the wearer's side of the lens anyway.)
10% of these would be elated and think they were wonderfull.
50% wouldn't even report back. 10% of those that could tell a difference would say it's a little better but not enough for a big chunk of a hundred dollar bill. And 10 % wouldn't like it at all or would find that the durability was inadequate after eight months of wear.

Chip

Maybe you're right. Too bad. I can see the difference, why can't they? Anyhow, I respect your opinion.

[Craig]

Craig...........I do know that it is possible in your case. You got all the professional qualifictions and some of the nicest stores in one of the richest areas of the USA.

I really want to see your lab in Fort Myers, will be another new expirience.
Have a nice weekend in Las Vegas.

I look forward to showing you my new edger- if I get a decent trade in- that will finally do a good job on 8 base and large 6 base jobs. I brought my own frame and surfaced 8 base trivex -3 to edge for myself and they snapped right in.

It is still not the 5 axis MEI that Pech has, but it should do over 90% of my wrap jobs.

See you when you fly south for the winter!

Craig

[HarryChiling]

Lenses with antireflection coating have better optics. Period. You have a moral problem with "selling" glasses that aren't optimal? Then coat them. Get the good stuff, with a good warranty, not the cheap stuff. Your mechanic friends want to clean them with a handkerchief full of metal filings? Educate them. Do they buy cheap tools, or the best they can afford? Same with glasses. This isn't about us, it's about the patient!

I'll try one more time. I'm not "sales oriented". This isn't about the money. Got it? It isn't. It's about trusting the intelligence of your patient. Can we agree that coated lenses are better to look through? If not, then I do give up. Then the question is, can a given patient handle them? I trust them to decide after I discuss it with them. My job isn't to decide for them, it's to give them what they need, both info and context, to choose wisely. If the answer is no, OK. Again, this isn't a matter of foisting something I want to sell on some poor unsuspecting patient, it's about not withholding products based on what I think of the wearer. I don't get my dispensing philosophy from pamphlets, and I think of every eyeglass order as a clean sheet of paper. It's worked pretty well for 41 years.

They sound like two very different replies but they both share the same passion. AR is great but not for everybody, withholding products based on what I think is part of being a professional in your field. Before the conversation of lenses gets discussed I woul much rather know a few things first. I find these few questions in my arsenal are the most revealing.

Enviornment:

• Indoors
• Outdoors
• Both (consisting of 50/50)

Hazards

• Impact
• Projectiles
• Chemical

Prescription

• Myopia
• Hyperopia
• Emmetropia (or anything with sph equiv of less than 1.00 D)
• +Presbyopia
• +Hi-Power (5.00 to 10.00)
• +Super Hi-Power (10.00 +)

Some of these are givens you look at the Rx and the prescription part is done n questions needed, but for instance the hazards you need to inquire about their work and hobbies as well as if they plan on a second task specifc pair for this enviornment. I find that mechanics when presented with safety eyewear usually end up spilling the beans, their employers 9 out of 10 times offer additional dollars to cover safety pairs. Also the guy ding brakes is a diffeent animal than the guy changing oil. Bake cleaners contain HF Acids which means no AR and NO GLASS, HF chemically reacs with glass so you make them a glass pair and they're frosted in a few months, this is the same reaction with AR the SiO (glass) layer that AR is bonded too reacts and we gt the peeling effect. If you can get a second safety sale great but if they go with the one pair you'll be doing them a favor by mentioning the AR and peeling, most mechanics I have dealt with know of the problem when I mention it but have never heard from anyone that it is a reaction from their envoirnment. I have seen very little documentation about AR contraindications yet they do exist.

Another thing we all know not to do is clean our precious ARC lenses with alcohol, right? I have found that their is a significant amount of cleaners that are printed with "formulated for ARC lenses" that contain isapropanol? :hammer: I will take a picture at work tommorow if you don't believe this either.

[OptiStudent]

Hey Harry & Company...,

Recently, in the past 2 months, when I was checking in jobs I noted that my PD marker was marking on 1-side or the other of the lenses. In school I learned that ARC lenses are hydrophobic. So, I called my lab and asked them why this was occuring--pd marker not beading up. At the lab's request I sent all of the jobs like this to 1 persons attention. I was told that the lab missed the arc on 1-side. Then I was directed to a supervisor who told me the arc was on both sides--but it was only the hydrophobic coating that was missing. To me there was a big "word play" on whether or not the arc was on both sides are not. Damn it! The hydrophobic coating is part of a "complete arc lens!" The supervisor mailed me a felt pen and told me to apply the coating myself. Howerver, the pen's directions said to shake, twist till you hear glass break, apply , and throw away. This is something I had never heard off, it was a 1x use pen, and I was still recieving jobs without the final ARCoting. The problem was not resolved. I did not try the pen, deffered the issue to upper mngt., and have very recently changed companies. Is this a common occurence?

[Chris Ryser]

Another thing we all know not to do is clean our precious ARC lenses with alcohol, right? I have found that their is a significant amount of cleaners that are printed with "formulated for ARC lenses" that contain isapropanol? I will take a picture at work tommorow if you don't believe this either.

Actually most lens cleaners contain between 20-30% of ISP and heavily sold and pushed for AR coating use. They are actually the cheapest and cleanest looking cleaner liquids compared to water and surfactant based ones.

[For-Life]

Too bad we can't afford to do this. But I really believe that if we gave 100 patients a pair of AR coated and the same patients a pair of non-AR coated lenses. No hype, no sales pitch, no "education" that only 20% at best would come back and say they could tell any difference whatsoever between them (difference from the wearer's side of the lens anyway.)
10% of these would be elated and think they were wonderfull.
50% wouldn't even report back. 10% of those that could tell a difference would say it's a little better but not enough for a big chunk of a hundred dollar bill. And 10 % wouldn't like it at all or would find that the durability was inadequate after eight months of wear.

Chip

Don't forget the the extra business they gain you though. I can tell you that if I sell 10 pairs of the best frames with AR and 10 without, the 10 with will gain far more referrals.

[Chris Ryser]

Don't forget the the extra business they gain you though. I can tell you that if I sell 10 pairs of the best frames with AR and 10 without, the 10 with will gain far more referrals.

With all the problems of todays econonomy you might be wrong, people might not want to cough up $ 100.00 + for the extra luxury and be contempt with what they had up to now.

We have to be a bit more realistic and go with the times, and they are not good. When everything is back to what it was your statement will be valid.

[For-Life]

With all the problems of todays econonomy you might be wrong, people might not want to cough up $ 100.00 + for the extra luxury and be contempt with what they had up to now.

We have to be a bit more realistic and go with the times, and they are not good. When everything is back to what it was your statement will be valid.

You'd be surprised. Plus, do not forget about plans. They are getting better. I just received a $500 plan for my glasses.

[Chris Ryser]

You'd be surprised. Plus, do not forget about plans. They are getting better. .

Good for you.............................but lets not forget you are working now for the government and you new amount for glasses must be partly the result of the recent strike.

There must be plenty people in the USA that are loosing their health insurance plans along along with their joibs.

[For-Life]

Good for you.............................but lets not forget you are working now for the government and you new amount for glasses must be partly the result of the recent strike.

There must be plenty people in the USA that are loosing their health insurance plans along along with their joibs.

We have no unions in my organization.

Jobs are fighting hard for good people, and are looking at unique ways of getting them. Thus, insurance is going up.

[Chris Ryser]

Good for you..................and if you do need glasses you can still get them from the old place for zip all. How can you ever use that insurance?

[For-Life]

Good for you..................and if you do need glasses you can still get them from the old place for zip all. How can you ever use that insurance?

You pick the glasses out and the company pays the vendor. Why would I want a cheap pair when I can get my full value of my insurance?

[Fezz]

Jobs are fighting hard for good people, and are looking at unique ways of getting them. Thus, insurance is going up.

I wish the same could be said of your southern neighbors!

We got the opposite down here!

:cheers::shiner::cheers::angry:

[DavisSam]

Hello everyone,
I had a customer come in with a different take on A/R. She is 32 years old, has a stable correction (8 years) and only now needed new glasses,
-8.25 and -7.50. When presented with our sample A/R coated lenses, she said, "Yes, that's very impressive, but can you show me a sample lens after 3 years of wear next to a non-coated lens after 3 years?" She says that with a stable correction, she only wants to change glasses if her correction changes and not because the A/R coating wears off. She compared the A/R to...non-stick pans. "Yes, it's great in the beginning, a real plus, but it wears off and forces you to replace the object," what she refers to as "planned obsolescence."
You know what, folks, I had to admit that she's right.
She also said she was completely satisfied with her previous high-index, non-AR coated lenses and was thrilled with her 1.8-index glass non-AR lenses.
What's your take on this? What would you say to this customer? I have to tell you, it made me think twice about patient benefits in increasing "A/R penetration."

[Chris Ryser]

What's your take on this? What would you say to this customer? I have to tell you, it made me think twice about patient benefits in increasing "A/R penetration."

Welcome to OptiBoard.....................

After all AR is not only a good thing to have for certain people.................it is a big money maker for the whole supply chain.

From the AR coating lab to the retail optician. Specially the retailer can make a big buck with no labor involved. Just put in the order and it is delivered in a few days and we pay more but also charge a lot more. So just this aspect makes it an interesting selling point. Lots of opticians make more commissions and get spiffs.

The increased penetration is not only due to advantages, but also to line the optical manufacturer and retailers pockets.

Therefore we get insulted when somebody actually does not want it...............which actually means that greed is more powerful than than the patients personal opinion. :finger: