A/R Penetration

**Uilleann** · 10-01-2008, 05:01 PM

So the last US National figure for percentage of A/R lenses dispensed in our little piece of the world was something still so dismally low I almost wanted to cry. Something like 28% or thereabouts!

You always hear about Japan and the Western European countries with figures in the 90% range.

I know that many of our practices are in the 60-90% ranges, so who on EARTH is doing SO poorly to drag the national numbers down SO LOW???:drop:
What are your average %ages? What is your goal? How do you make it happen? :)

Brian~

**chip anderson** · 10-01-2008, 06:10 PM

Maybe they have AR's that don't crack, scratch, come loose in a short period of time. Maybe they can do them very inexpensively and have the capability of stripping and replaceing (which none of the labs around here seem interested in.
There must be a way do to this quick and cheap as we have all seem some frame lines that have AR on the demo lenses. You know they are not spending a whole lot getting demo's AR'd.
Perhaps we have some goverment governing body that makes it manditory that it is an expensive time consumeing process here when it can be done in Europe or the Far East without such headaches.

Chip

**HarryChiling** · 10-01-2008, 10:49 PM

AR was introduced in the US on plastic lenses, which as you have mentioned chip poisoned a lot of people and opticians. Europe and the far east still had an obsession with glass at the time which did not have the same AR issues as a plastic substrate. I think this is why we are still dealing with AR issues.

**tigerlilly** · 10-01-2008, 11:20 PM

For some reason, my AR numbers are good. This week I've made three sets of lenses without, and that's a huge departure for me. Most weeks I'm at 100%. I think part of that is due to the fact that I honestly believe that it benefits the patient. I believe it, therefore I can sell it well, if that makes sense. It also helps that we tend to package it in and then take it off if the patient doesn't want it. It's easier to remove options than to add them on and raise the price. If their total is $219 (arbitrary numbers, pulled out of my posterior), and they are happy with that, I don't then have to then say "Here's this option we can add that I think you'd like, but your total will change to $269..." I'd say less than half of the patients even question it unless they don't like the total.

I think that's really the key with all types of sales. If the final price is at or lower than what they expected to pay when they walked in, they're happy to gloss over the details. I know I've done it when purchasing something that I didn't understand very well. Does it do what I want? Do I like it? Does the price seem right? Okay, ring it up.

I do have to say that more patients seem to be requesting AR when we start talking lenses, so word must be getting out somehow.

**HarryChiling** · 10-02-2008, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by tigerlilly

I think that's really the key with all types of sales. If the final price is at or lower than what they expected to pay when they walked in, they're happy to gloss over the details.

I hope that what your talking about is assuming the sale and not just throwing everything under the sun in without ever discussing it. I think it's Ok to quote them a price for a lens package that you think will benefit them as long as you also go over everything that is in their package. Too many just tack on as much as they can and it hurts down the line in customer loyalty.

If AR is time and time again 100% then your doing something wrong. No one can sell 100% AR and claim that they are doing what's good for th patient. I work near a industrial complex and some of these guys would chew an optician out for even offering AR. I have 3 car mechanics that won't go to anyone else and refer family and friends to me simply because I won't give them AR, ask them and they'll tell you he seems to always give me the lenses that don't peel when I get brake cleaner on them.

**Chris Ryser** · 10-02-2008, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Uilleann

I know that many of our practices are in the 60-90% ranges, so who on EARTH is doing SO poorly to drag the national numbers down SO LOW???

You probably still believe in the tooth fairy. Anybody that Clim's to have such a practice that is doing 90% of AR is strongly overstating.

Harry has brought some real valid points so I don't have to repeat but add some.

The main ingredient of an AR coat is SIO2 (silicone dioxide), which is glass that is evaporated onto the plastic lens surface.

These these two materials are actually not compatible and have to be bonded with an intermediary adhesion coating for both sides.

They always will have a problem with extreme cold or hot temperatures which are encountered on this continent. There are also industrial environments that emit chemical fumes or use chemicals that can damage the coating as well as mechanical action.

If applied on glass, this does not happen. I still have a Leica FII camera made in the 1930's whith a fantastic AR coated Elmar lens that is still good and usale/

Then there is another point, that AR coatings are vry expensive and not everybody can afford them.........specially not these days.

So stop worrying about overstated AR sales figures and just do the best you can.

**Uilleann** · 10-02-2008, 08:29 AM

Interesting replies.

In response to the last poster, your opinion is noted. However you are categorically wrong. There are MANY optical dispensaries who DO in fact achieve 60-90% penetration. I haven't worked for one who had less than 45-50% in well over ten years. Certainly there will always be some considerations that proper lifestyle questioning may reveal won't lend a particular patient to A/R. But it is possible, and happens daily.

My question pertained to the *average* numbers that are reported in the US as opposed to other nations. With so many practices maintaning such high percentages, there has to be dispensaries who do none at all to drag that average down it would seem.

Many of the points raised about A/R lenses are valid - though some are not. Haven't been for several years now with the latest generation of A/R options. Education f the dispenser is the first key, but also education of the patient on proper care and realistic performance expectations. Flame on! ;)

**HarryChiling** · 10-02-2008, 09:53 AM

With so many practices maintaning such high percentages, there has to be dispensaries who do none at all to drag that average down it would seem.

No one sent me the memo sorry team USA I've been letting you down guys I'll pick up the slack. :D (the smiley face means it's a joke)

Good points about the quality of coatings being better now, but the naysayers got what they needed and that was a product that was introduced with significant flaws. We still get customers who call it the "peeling stuff", even though the new generation of coatings is far beyond that. You also don't factor in the guy down the road at the EyeSwapMeet that is still selling the inferior stuff for way way less than you, sure while your selling the good stuff and educateing your patients he's down the road putting the vodoo on AR.

**Jacqui** · 10-02-2008, 10:05 AM

At the lab here we see about 35% normally, lately it's been closer to 50%

**optical24/7** · 10-02-2008, 10:57 AM

You can call me a liar all day long. I have a 92% sales average for AR. I've had 3 coating faliures in the last year ( coating crazing) 3 is nothing! Now SRC replacement is another story, that runs around 4%. And that's mainly from a handful of patients that abuse their eyewear.

When some AR's have an unconditional warr. agains scratching/crazing, why the heck not recommend it to almost everyone? It's got a better warrenty, is that not value to the patient? Well, they think so or I wouldn't sell so much of it.

It is a part of our recommended lens packages, I always explain the benifits of it and have been selling it long enough that patients expect it here. (at least former patients do.)

If price is a concern, of course I let them know they can drop the price of their glasses by eliminating it. Invariably, they will drop something else, not the AR. Heck, there's times I throw it in if price is a concern, if I believe the patient will benifit from it. Usually, they will purchase it the next time because they enjoyed it's benifits.

**finefocus** · 10-02-2008, 12:24 PM

Lenses with antireflection coating have better optics. Period. You have a moral problem with "selling" glasses that aren't optimal? Then coat them. Get the good stuff, with a good warranty, not the cheap stuff. Your mechanic friends want to clean them with a handkerchief full of metal filings? Educate them. Do they buy cheap tools, or the best they can afford? Same with glasses. This isn't about us, it's about the patient!

**Uilleann** · 10-02-2008, 03:15 PM

Again - very interesting and good points made. I do have to wonder why some will not design their patients eyewear with Anti Glare lenses outright with the warranties and quality of the finished product available now. The scratch resistance, adhesion (somewhat akin to anodizing metal with pigment etc.) and clarity of the lens is in EVERY case superior though there are some environmental situations that are likely to show wear or damage sooner than others.

I would reason however, that if a patient is well educated on the superior quality of vision, the proper means of cleaning (yes, even mechanics and chemical engineers can manage it!:shiner:), and standing behind your product 100%. The lens (A/R) manufacturers are standing behind you - I'd say pass that same level of customer service on to the patients we all are working so hard to help...and impress. :)

Good on everyone who's got those great percentages. Even more good on those who are working hard to bring it up I say!

**chip anderson** · 10-02-2008, 03:18 PM

Warranties are just a selling point. Durablility is a sticking point. If you have a patient that you sell any "warrantied" product, no matter how good the warranty, if he has the product replaced multiple times during what he expects to be the "life" of the product. He ain't gonna be back, and he his going to think you sold him junk, and he'll be right!

Chip

**finefocus** · 10-02-2008, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by chip anderson

Warranties are just a selling point. Durablility is a sticking point. If you have a patient that you sell any "warrantied" product, no matter how good the warranty, if he has the product replaced multiple times during what he expects to be the "life" of the product. He ain't gonna be back, and he his going to think you sold him junk, and he'll be right!

Chip

I have very few warranty replacements on A/R, and I don't remember any multiple replacements. True, I use expensive A/R, but that's why it's worth it. You can't throw your computer repeatedly to the ground, you can't drive your car into light poles, you can't hang your full weight on the hinges of your cabinets, your watch doesn't go into the washing machine: you have to take care of your stuff. If you won't, then you are condemned to using second-tier stuff.

**tigerlilly** · 10-02-2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by HarryChiling

I hope that what your talking about is assuming the sale and not just throwing everything under the sun in without ever discussing it. I think it's Ok to quote them a price for a lens package that you think will benefit them as long as you also go over everything that is in their package. Too many just tack on as much as they can and it hurts down the line in customer loyalty.

If AR is time and time again 100% then your doing something wrong. No one can sell 100% AR and claim that they are doing what's good for th patient. I work near a industrial complex and some of these guys would chew an optician out for even offering AR. I have 3 car mechanics that won't go to anyone else and refer family and friends to me simply because I won't give them AR, ask them and they'll tell you he seems to always give me the lenses that don't peel when I get brake cleaner on them.

I don't get a lot of machinists or line cooks, so quite often I do have 100% AR for the week. I mostly have people who live an average lifestyle and can benefit from AR.

I never "tack on" everything but the kitchen sink. That's unethical, and unnecessary, not to mention more than a little insulting that you'd assume that's what I meant. As I've repeatedly said, my three options for materials are plastic, poly or high index. So, barring any specific needs unique to that individual (high myope, for example) I put patients in poly with AR. Scratch and UV are included with poly at no charge. That's all it's going to take to make the average person pretty happy with their glasses.

The other part of being successful with AR is explaining how to clean the lenses properly so that it holds up well. Of course the patient is going to scratch the hell out of it and be unhappy, probably thinking AR is junk, if they're not told to wet the lens before rubbing it. The majority of people I've encountered that are leery of AR for durability reasons were never taught not to use paper towels or how to avoid other bad cleaning practices.

**Uilleann** · 10-02-2008, 07:57 PM

I agree. 100% is NOT an unreasonable thing to shoot for. I FULLY believe and will ALWAYS stand behind the simple fact that an anti-glare lens will ALWAYS out perform a non AR lens optically. Period. My FIRST obligation to 100% of my patients is to improve their sight to the maximum extent possible. That means AR. Now, as discussed, not every environment is ideal for a less than durable lens. However, the AR lenses we use now have better scratch protection than even the best non AR scratch treatments we can offer. We see quite a few refinery workers, miners, aviation and heavy equipment mechanics, fire fighters, welders and the like in our practice. I have yet to fine even ONE of them who has had ANY problems with their lenses when they were properly educated about how the lens works, what it does, and doesn't do, and how to safely clean them. It simply isn't that hard.

Every practice will ALWAYS have patients who will choose a non-AR design lens. Sometimes it was a "horrible experience with that 'coating' from twenty years ago". Sometimes it was a "horrible optician or doctor". Sometimes they're just cantankerous and cranky old coots. But we believe in our product offering lines. We also believe in our patients. And we back everything up with a material and service guarantee/warranty/promise. Call it what you will.

So that's our story here. And we don't just have patients - we've got raving fans the vast majority of the time. I can't help but think, if a practice has a similar goal and mindset, that they couldn't be equally successful in their fits. It's working superbly well for us now, and has done so for me for almost twenty years.

**Craig** · 10-03-2008, 10:22 AM

Chris,
You know that it is possible to do 100%, we do it and you saw it in person. I did enjoy meeting with you by the way and please call me to visit my lab in Ft. Myers this winter.

Percent
of Total
SNAKE SILVER MIRROR
23.1%
ADVANTAGE COOL SILVR
5.7%
OTHER
2.5%

=31.4% of all lenses are coated with mirror coating- not just sunglasses

SET PLUS
39.2%
PECH MULTI-LAYER SAR
22.9%
OTHER
2.4%

ANTIREFLECTIVE Total
=64.6%

Totals as of today in the DVI system at Pech, we are at 96% and that includes some errors and samples for special edging projects.
The work we order from Kodak is 100% non glare for over 2 years!

Lets set the bar high and look for reasons to succeed with the new products!

I do agree that most coatings are overpriced and that is why we use the Pech brand and have 99% success rate. The only coating issues we have had in the past five years were from Teflon and any coating on transitions 1.6 product.

All we need is the coating to not fall off and most are pretty good at that now. It is still a problem to use poly and trivex is a much more stable base material.

Make it a great day; I am off to go see the new toys in Vegas!

Craig

**HarryChiling** · 10-03-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by finefocus

Lenses with antireflection coating have better optics. Period. You have a moral problem with "selling" glasses that aren't optimal? Then coat them. Get the good stuff, with a good warranty, not the cheap stuff. Your mechanic friends want to clean them with a handkerchief full of metal filings? Educate them. Do they buy cheap tools, or the best they can afford? Same with glasses. This isn't about us, it's about the patient!

If the best you offer your patients is a lifestyle that suits their lenses then shame on you. Your and my job is to choose and offer a lens that fits the patients lifestyle not the other way around and if you have lost site of this objective then shame on you.

**Jubilee** · 10-03-2008, 11:59 AM

Some patients, you can educate them all you want, but it about convienence.

They don't want to have to think about caring for their eyewear. They don't want to have to worry about chemical sensitivities and the like.

If I were in a practice 30miles north of here, where the majority of folk work in office type environments, then I would push AR on almost everyone. In a farming/industrial community where they come into contact with ammonia and other harsh chemicals that can destroy coatings.. it would be a nightmare.

I do make sure to tell all my patients about it, so that if they decide to have a designated pair for work, and then need a pair for the rest of life, they know that option exists.

**KBC** · 10-03-2008, 12:15 PM

[quote=Uilleann;265331]Interesting replies.

My question pertained to the *average* numbers that are reported in the US as opposed to other nations. With so many practices maintaning such high percentages, there has to be dispensaries who do none at all to drag that average down it would seem.

You are correct. We do not really do any AR coating, that is because of our location in a poor/undereducated neighborhood. People can barely afford the Chinese frame we sell for $50, let alone a lens with add-ons. They have to get glasses and basically ask for the cheapest possible. If you try to get into a protection rant, they don't have money for the glasses let alone add-ons and start telling you about being poor. So I guess it depends on your customers and the city you live in.

**Chris Ryser** · 10-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by HarryChiling

Your and my job is to choose and offer a lens that fits the patients lifestyle not the other way around and if you have lost site of this objective then shame on you.

Lets elect this one as the quote of the week or the month or even the year................................

**Chris Ryser** · 10-03-2008, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Craig

Chris,
You know that it is possible to do 100%, we do it and you saw it in person. I did enjoy meeting with you by the way and please call me to visit my lab in Ft. Myers this winter.

Craig...........I do know that it is possible in your case. You got all the professional qualifictions and some of the nicest stores in one of the richest areas of the USA.

I really want to see your lab in Fort Myers, will be another new expirience.
Have a nice weekend in Las Vegas.

**Chris Ryser** · 10-03-2008, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by KBC

If you try to get into a protection rant, they don't have money for the glasses let alone add-ons and start telling you about being poor. So I guess it depends on your customers and the city you live in.

KBC......this for sure will make a big difference, plus the economy will be a major damper for all of us from retail to wholesale and manufacturers.

Start looking into saving on your purchases on frames and lenses and just forget about AR until the horizon clears and the economy is back to normal.

**HarryChiling** · 10-03-2008, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Chris Ryser

Lets elect this one as the quote of the week or the month or even the year................................

Never happen I used:

site instead of sight, just enough to make those edumacated opticians mad at me. ;)

**kgcopley** · 10-03-2008, 12:56 PM

We receive a monthly breakdown of our lens usage both for the current month and year to date. from our Hoya lab in Modesto. The interesting thing is the coating % to lab avg, the coating % to warr. redo's. In the first instance we do 83% A/R to lab avg of 37%. However or lab warr. redo rate is 2.4% to the lab avg of 2.2%. Now I realize that we are in a geographic bubble but our clients come from all over the greater bay area. So we may have a greater number of white collar types but we also have our share of tradesmen and women, the elderly and young people. If there is a vocational or lifestyle reason that would put lenses in a position that they may not be treated in what would be a "normal" way we would not recommend an A/R coating for the working pair but would recommend it for the dress pair and backside for their sunwear. Todays quality coatings are very durable and pretty much trouble free in most lifestyle situations. Our warr. redo rates tend to reflect that.