poly for kids

**Leighlee** · 08-20-2008, 08:22 AM

Hi,

I have a mom who is refusing to put her daughter in polycarb lenses, she wants plastic. Does anyone have a good form that we could use to have the mom sign, stating that she has been informed of the risks, and she, understanding the risks, has decided against poly and accepts total responsibility should something happen? We are a new practice and really this is the first child we have had to fit with glasses. A new school has opened in the area, so we expect to get more of this.
Thanks,
Leighlee

**Judy Canty** · 08-20-2008, 08:36 AM

OLA used to have a Duty to Warn package, but I don't see it on their website.

Check with Medical Arts Press at www.medicalartspress.com. I did find a form on caring for your eyewear that included a duty to warn statement and a signature box.

Hope this helps!

**Now I See** · 08-20-2008, 08:41 AM

I wonder why the pt's mom is hesitant? How about putting her in Trivex...impact-resisitant like poly, but ABBE is better.

**bob_f_aboc** · 08-20-2008, 08:55 AM

I will not put anyone under the age of 18 in anything less than polycarbonate. (with the possible exception of the rare lenticular or such...)

If a parent refuses, I will not fill the Rx. In my opinion, the safety is more important than the sale.

I do require a warranty waiver of any adult that chooses CR-39 lenses. Our retail price for both poly and Trivex is less than CR-39 with UV and scratch coating.

**obxeyeguy** · 08-20-2008, 09:01 AM

I would be careful with a waiver. A signed piece of paper where you are admitting dispensing an inferior product.

I'm with bob f on this. Try to educate them, if still no I would show them the door.

**Fezz** · 08-20-2008, 09:09 AM

Show them the door!!

**Jamelina** · 08-20-2008, 09:14 AM

I might be mistaken, but isn't poly required by law in some states for patients under 18?

**glo** · 08-20-2008, 09:26 AM

Yes, many states require it for 14 years old and younger.

**Bobbi** · 08-20-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by bob_f_aboc

I will not put anyone under the age of 18 in anything less than polycarbonate. (with the possible exception of the rare lenticular or such...)

If a parent refuses, I will not fill the Rx. In my opinion, the safety is more important than the sale.

I do require a warranty waiver of any adult that chooses CR-39 lenses. Our retail price for both poly and Trivex is less than CR-39 with UV and scratch coating.

I completely agree..if something happens to a child that you knowingly dispensed an unsafe product to, first, how horrible would you feel? And second, waiver or not, that parent is going to blame you and whoever else they can. Whether or not they can legally blame you is irrelevant, being a new business that is bad word of mouth and is extremely dangerous for your practice right now, in my opinion, you know better, don't do it.

**For-Life** · 08-20-2008, 09:40 AM

What reasons did she give?

**specti-wolf** · 08-20-2008, 09:49 AM

I never give parents the option. If they are nice and resonable, but just can't afford it, I just give it to them, no extra charge. Same with older folks who only have vision in one eye, need a balance lens, whatever. If they balk, if they truly cannot afford it, it's my way of still providing what is needed with very little cost to my practice. BUT! BUT! If I get someone in the office that just wants to be a cheap-o, and doesn't care about the safety factor, I will not do business with them. I get very tired of the general population not willing to take any personal responsibility.

**chip anderson** · 08-20-2008, 09:50 AM

You are not required to dispense "superior" product. You are only required to give the patient "informed consent."
If after being so informed the patient choses something else, so what?
You fullfilled your duty when you told them about it. Don't sweat it, this silly regulation was a result of a court order, is not a law. And Informed consent is just to protect the optician from lawyers.
We fit children in glass and CR-39 with problems so infrequent as to be less than the likely hood of being hit by lightning.

Chip

**specti-wolf** · 08-20-2008, 09:51 AM

I just give it to them

That would be poly or trivex.

**Johns** · 08-20-2008, 09:54 AM

The easy way to solve this is to charge more for Cr-39 than you do for Poly.

End of story...

**Chris Ryser** · 08-20-2008, 09:55 AM

Chip is totally right............and I dont see why all this fuss about this issue that was started by LC in the late 70s or early 80s.

**specti-wolf** · 08-20-2008, 10:03 AM

You can say "what is all the fuss about", but if there is "fuss", why not just go ahead and match the safest lens to the situation. That is

"least fuss". :cheers:

**Johns** · 08-20-2008, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by specti-wolf

I just give it to them

That would be poly or trivex.

That really is the easiest. (If you're truly concerned about the child, and not the extra poly charge)

**HarryChiling** · 08-20-2008, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by glo

Yes, many states require it for 14 years old and younger.

Please point me int e direction of this "requirement"?

Just eat the few extra bucks and dispense a poly anyway, forget losing the sale next time don't offer her any other option.

**drk** · 08-20-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by bob_f_aboc

I will not put anyone under the age of 18 in anything less than polycarbonate. (with the possible exception of the rare lenticular or such...)

If a parent refuses, I will not fill the Rx. In my opinion, the safety is more important than the sale.

I do require a warranty waiver of any adult that chooses CR-39 lenses. Our retail price for both poly and Trivex is less than CR-39 with UV and scratch coating.

We have a winner.

**orangezero** · 08-20-2008, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by drk

We have a winner.

I'm surprised with you drk. are you just commenting on the first sentence?

I'm sure the only problem the parent has is price. To totally avoid this issue make your plastic/poly/trivex all the same fee then it won't seem like upselling like it does now (to the general public).

waiver for an adult cr39?? Are we really at the point now of having to explain that something someone wears on their face may cause injury during an accident or if a large flying object comes at the front of their head?? Why not make a disclaimer for any frame as well? (not trying to give you a hard time... sorry).

I try to remember what patients unfortunately have to deal with at some other opticals (too many around me it seems). A patient came in today who was told at another optical that his warranty didn't cover horizontal scratches on his lenses caused by his eyelashes rubbing on the backs of the lenses (????). Now, I'm no rocket surgeon, but I've never seen eyelashes that tough or that could move so smoothly in the horizontal direction.

For those who have been doing this longer than I've been alive, do you think these odd stories/explanations/cop-outs are increasing in frequency or staying the same? I constantly hear of patients having "vision insurance" but still paying hundreds of dollars for everything by the time they leave and are upset about it.

The thought of buying glasses scares most people, emotionally (picking them out) and financially. I'd bet most patients think the poly upgrade for children is a little fishy even if they don't make a deal out of it in the optical.

**finefocus** · 08-20-2008, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by orangezero

I try to remember what patients unfortunately have to deal with at some other opticals (too many around me it seems). A patient came in today who was told at another optical that his warranty didn't cover horizontal scratches on his lenses caused by his eyelashes rubbing on the backs of the lenses (????). Now, I'm no rocket surgeon, but I've never seen eyelashes that tough or that could move so smoothly in the horizontal direction.

I think this hits the nail on the head: why shouldn't some people think we're selling the useless underseal like the used car guys, when they have evidence of it from schlocky optical operations (and yes, there are many). That we are protecting their child by using/selling the right material is lost on them. Whether just stupid or actually dishonest, these snake-oil salesmen queer the pitch for us all.

**HarryChiling** · 08-20-2008, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by orangezero

I constantly hear of patients having "vision insurance" but still paying hundreds of dollars for everything by the time they leave and are upset about it.

That's not because the opticals are fooling them it's the discount plans that are fooling them, they shouldn't be classified as insurance IMO it just adds to the confusion. And Yes I do see the frequency of complaints abotu other opticals increaseing all while the patient asks for more discount please.

**Johns** · 08-20-2008, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by orangezero

Are we really at the point now of having to explain that something someone wears on their face may cause injury during an accident or if a large flying object comes at the front of their head?? Why not make a disclaimer for any frame as well? (not trying to give you a hard time... sorry).

Yes, we are....

Have you purchased a cup of coffee from McDonalds, a fishing pole, a hoodie w/ a drawstring, garbage bags, or any other benign and seemingly harmless item recently? Ridiculous? You bet, but if the big guys don't think they can afford a lawsuit, why should we.

As far as waivers go, I don't do them. If I feel that strongly that what they are wanting me to do is wrong, then I just don't do it. Can you imagine a waiver in court? So you admit to the court that what you did was unsafe, and then made it certifiable by having the patient sign a form?:hammer::finger:

No thanks. Just say no.

**CME4SPECS** · 08-20-2008, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Leighlee

Hi,

I have a mom who is refusing to put her daughter in polycarb lenses, she wants plastic. Does anyone have a good form that we could use to have the mom sign, stating that she has been informed of the risks, and she, understanding the risks, has decided against poly and accepts total responsibility should something happen? We are a new practice and really this is the first child we have had to fit with glasses. A new school has opened in the area, so we expect to get more of this.
Thanks,
Leighlee

Why not promote your business by offering kid's poly at cr39 prices? Maybe you can corner the kids market! Just a thought. Think outside the box!

**bob_f_aboc** · 08-20-2008, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by orangezero

waiver for an adult cr39?? Are we really at the point now of having to explain that something someone wears on their face may cause injury during an accident or if a large flying object comes at the front of their head?? Why not make a disclaimer for any frame as well? (not trying to give you a hard time... sorry).

The waiver is for UV protection and scratch protection. It also states that there is no warranty against chipping or cracking. If an adult wants to buy CR lenses that is fine and his/her right. It is also my right to not replace the lenses the first time they are dropped and the lens shatters.

If they purchase UV and scratch, then they have paid $20 more than the poly price. Again, these individuals are free to do as they choose.

I stand by my previous statement that I will not put anyone under 18 in anything less than polycarbonate.