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Thread: DEFINITY,Trivex, and Transitions...........

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    DEFINITY,Trivex, and Transitions...........

    Usually a relationship with three ends in disaster, this is the one exception to that rule and has answered my prayers.

    My love for DEFINITY lenses is no secret- It's been going on since I first tried the product. The wider field of vision, useable periphery, and ground view advantage have made this lens my progressive of choice for the past 4 or 5 years. My plea's for an edition in Trivex fell on deaf ears at J&J's Spectacle Lens Group. I think they had all they could do to keep up with the demand for the product in CR-39, Poly, and 1.60.

    My love for Transitions and Trivex is not a well kept secret either. You can research this by plugging these terms into our search engine and following along the conversation. Please pay particular attention to the "Trivex" wars between Pete Hanlin vs Billy Brock and me. :D:D

    In any event, Essilor is now the source for Definity and in my opinion, have carried the product to new heights, releasing a 1.67 version, and a Trivex DEFINITY this past winter. This was an absolutely superior product to the others because of the clarity and weight, but still lacked the one ingredient to make it complete.

    A little over a week ago Essilor released the DEFINITY in Trivex Transition in grey or brown. I got mine just before lunch today and I am here to say that this lens is the best product I have ever seen......or seen through!..... That is in my career........and that started officially on August 26th 1959 so I've seen one or two come down the pike. This lens is AWESOME SQUARED! You may recommend this product with complete confidence that the wearer will still thank you for it....even after writing the check.
    Give it a try!
    Harry C Jilson
    Last edited by hcjilson; 08-13-2008 at 02:09 PM. Reason: season change
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  2. #2
    One of the worst people here
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    I do not think we are allowed to say anything good about Essilor on this forum. Trust me, I still have rope burns around my neck from it.

  3. #3
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    You should try WORKING for Essilor!

    I vary my driving routes to and from work "just in case..." ;)

    Glad you like the product, Harry. I still prefer polycarbonate as a substrate- and my blood still runs Varilux blue- but the fact that professionals such as yourself (and many others who have communicated with me over the years) find the performance of DEFINITY to be exceptional is not lost on me. Essilor International's corporate slogan is "Seeing the World Better." Anything that helps you accomplish that (be it DEFINITY, Accolade, or Varilux) works for me!

    Enjoy those DEFINITY Trivex in Transitions lenses!
    Pete

    PS- I would note my father (who has worked with blueprints his whole life) is perhaps the most visually particular person on the planet- his Varilux Ipseo in Airwear are his favorite lenses.

  4. #4
    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin View Post
    You should try WORKING for Essilor!


    PS- I would note my father (who has worked with blueprints his whole life) is perhaps the most visually particular person on the planet- his Varilux Ipseo in Airwear are his favorite lenses.
    C'mon Pete! Break down and get him a pair of DEFINITY'S,He'll never go back to the Ipseo's....and while you're at it, in Trivex so he can see more clearly and doesn't have all the weight to carry around!:D
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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    Master OptiBoarder optigrrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin View Post
    You should try WORKING for Essilor!

    I vary my driving routes to and from work "just in case..." ;)

    Glad you like the product, Harry. I still prefer polycarbonate as a substrate- and my blood still runs Varilux blue- but the fact that professionals such as yourself (and many others who have communicated with me over the years) find the performance of DEFINITY to be exceptional is not lost on me. Essilor International's corporate slogan is "Seeing the World Better." Anything that helps you accomplish that (be it DEFINITY, Accolade, or Varilux) works for me!

    Enjoy those DEFINITY Trivex in Transitions lenses!
    Pete

    PS- I would note my father (who has worked with blueprints his whole life) is perhaps the most visually particular person on the planet- his Varilux Ipseo in Airwear are his favorite lenses.
    At least until Essilor goes 100% Trivex :cheers:

  6. #6
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    Idea No more poly, use trivex lenses!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Hanlin View Post
    You should try WORKING for Essilor!

    I vary my driving routes to and from work "just in case..." ;)


    Glad you like the product, Harry. I still prefer polycarbonate as a substrate- and my blood still runs Varilux blue- but the fact that professionals such as yourself (and many others who have communicated with me over the years) find the performance of DEFINITY to be exceptional is not lost on me. Essilor International's corporate slogan is "Seeing the World Better." Anything that helps you accomplish that (be it DEFINITY, Accolade, or Varilux) works for me!

    Enjoy those DEFINITY Trivex in Transitions lenses!

    Pete

    PS- I would note my father (who has worked with blueprints his whole life) is perhaps the most visually particular person on the planet- his Varilux Ipseo in Airwear are his favorite lenses.
    You are a funny man for a techy!

    I have re-posted some info from Harry and it is clearly in favor of trivex. I was a guy who introduced poly to the world and got yelled at about all the problems, I never had a problem with poly for any reason, it WAS the material of choice for many years. This is now!:drop:

    The past 1.5 years we have used trivex products and it is the best thing we ever did in the lab. We needed to work thru some surfacing, coating and thickness issues, but it is now 75% of our lenses and will be 95% when the NXT polarized is released at Expo.
    Below is a post from Optiboard and the comparison is interesting! It shows thickness is not an issue, but Trivex is clearly superior in the weight and optics to poly and the other materials.

    This information can be made into a very compelling marketing piece and help further the cause of no more poly. Hope it helps get the marketing juices flowing.



    Craig



    RX -1.50 sphere


    Thicknesses at 50mm, using the left eye's sph equiv.

    CR-39 = 3.2mm
    Trivex = 2.6mm
    Poly = 2.5mm
    1.67 = 2.3mm

    1.67 is the thinnest by 0.2mm, let's look at the sacrifice

    Chromatic Aberration threshold of 0.1

    CR-39 = 33mm from OC = 100 percent of the lens area is below threshold
    Trivex = 25mm from OC = 100 percent of the lens area is below threshold
    Poly = 17mm from OC = 68 percent of the lens area is below the threshold

    1.67 = 18mm from OC = 72 percent of the lens area is below threshold

    Weight: This is the number one item to patient comfort in wearing the lenses and it doesn't hurt that they cannot break in any frame design.


    CR-39 = 6.7g
    Trivex = 4.5g
    Poly = 4.7g
    1.67 = 5.2g

    Trivex seems to be the best choice to me in this scenario, lighter in weight, provides crisp optics throughout a generous portion of the lens, and only slightly thicker, however if we were to surface trivex down to 1.0mm CT then it would be thinner as well so it's obviously the better choice here.



    Respectfully,

    Craig Chasnov
    Technology Broker

  7. #7
    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optigrrl View Post
    At least until Essilor goes 100% Trivex :cheers:
    I remember saying to Pete, very early on in the "Trivex War" that someday all other lens materials will become obsolete because of Trivex. Sure you will still need the specialty glass lenses for glassblowing etc but for normal spectacle wear nothing beats it. Pete, at the time, had not made the move to Essilor and I must say he was a firm believer in Poly even back when he was dispensing. Pete may well have some of the Pennsylvania Dutch still in him because, as you can plainly see, he hasn't changed his mind.

    Billy Brock made a photo of his SUV front tire on a 75MM Trivex blank, and posted it somewhere on these pages. If you decide to look for it, it is entitled "Pete's Speed Bump" i thought that would do it, but Pete remained unconvinced. You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead!
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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  8. #8
    Optician Extraordinaire
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    I have some concerns about Trivex with AR losing it's impact resistance. What can you tell me about this?

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Happy Lady, do a search on it. Somewhere in this age wracked brain of mine I recall someone posting either the pictures from the video or a link to the video showing the impact resistant proberties of CR39, Poly, 1.6 and Trivex. Far and way the data showed Trivex outperforming them all. I can't remember who produced the video but it is my understanding that its a PPG product so maybe you could start there.
    "Always laugh when you can. It is a cheap medicine"
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    honestly, I would not worry about trivex and AR. What are you going to take to the lens that putting AR on it is going to cause it to break?

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    Hey HappyLady!!!

    Trivex is awesome! I suggest that you check out this fantastic, well written, very informative, authored by a very sophisticated and learned individual, not very humble, author:


    It is was written for Eye Care Professional Magazine!

    Those guys and gals that write for this industry LEADER are BRILLIANT!!!

    http://www.ecpmag.com/1webmagazine/2...;s-eyewear.asp

    ;):cheers::D:cheers::shiner:

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    Long live trivex!!!!!!

    If that well written, enthusiastic, handsome author did not impress you, I suggest that you start at another source!

    PPG has a wealth of info!

    http://corporateportal.ppg.com/NA/ch...ptical/Trivex/

    Have fun!

    ;):cheers::D:D:cheers:

  13. #13
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    AR may affect the impact resistance of any lens material. A little research into the subject can shed a lot of light on the subject.

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    I still argue that trivex is more of a replacement for CR-39 than Poly. Of course, I am Canadian, so we have not gotten into the Impact Resistance crazy. Poly tends to be used here for its thinness. Of course, for safety, we do use poly.

    Actually, with the improvements made to 1.6, it is my go to lens. It is thin, light, very resistant to chipping, very easy to work with, and works well with AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    IOf course, for safety, we do use poly.
    Why not Trivex?

    You seem like a professional that promotes quality-why use poly? You often mention the "quality" of frames, and the "quality" of lenses. It just seems odd to me that such a well educated and forward thinking Optical Professional would use.....poly?
    Last edited by Fezz; 08-14-2008 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Busting chops! ;^)

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    I like Trivex just fine. But it is often sold as an impact resistant lens like poly is. Poly is still impact resistant with an AR. I understand that Trivex is much less with an AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happylady View Post
    I have some concerns about Trivex with AR losing it's impact resistance. What can you tell me about this?
    AR reduces IR on avg by 20%. Hard coat. reduces IR on avg by 45%. This is not just for trivex but all lenses.

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Count the day lost.....

    Dear Ocular,
    Count the day lost when you can't learn something new! I have never heard, read, or to my knowledge seen, any info on the loss of Impact resistance on an AR treated lens. Where can I find the studies?
    Last edited by hcjilson; 08-15-2008 at 04:42 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz View Post
    Why not Trivex?

    You seem like a professional that promotes quality-why use poly? You often mention the "quality" of frames, and the "quality" of lenses. It just seems odd to me that such a well educated and forward thinking Optical Professional would use.....poly?
    Because I can get poly at safety thickness for 20% less than trivex at safety thickness.

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    So should we not AR safety lenses, even poly?

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    Happylady,

    Since this thread is veering of course, how about posting that question in the general forum! I think the answers will be very interesting!

    :cheers::cheers::cheers:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Happylady View Post
    So should we not AR safety lenses, even poly?
    At 3mm thick, what is going to go through it?

  23. #23
    Master OptiBoarder rinselberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson View Post
    Dear Ocular,
    Count the day lost when you can't learn something new! I have never heard, read, or to my knowledge seen, any info on the loss of Impact resistance on an AR treated lens. Where can I find the studies?
    "Effect of multiple antireflection coatings on impact resistance of Hoya Phoenix spectacle lenses"; Clinical and Experimental Optometry (2006).

    Abstract: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0
    Full text in PDF format: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...63985/PDFSTART

    This white paper would be a good starting point for anyone who wants to research this topic.

    "Phoenix" is Hoya's version of trivex.

    Here's a paste of the article abstract..


    ORIGINAL PAPER
    Effect of multiple antireflection coatings on impact resistance of Hoya Phoenix spectacle lenses

    B Ralph Chou*† MSc OD FAAO and Jeffery K Hovis* OD PhD FAAO
    * School of Optometry, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
    † School of Optometry and Vision Science, The University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia
    E-mail: bchou@uwaterloo.ca
    Correspondence to Dr B Ralph Chou
    School of Optometry
    University of Waterloo
    Waterloo, Ontario N2L 3G1
    CANADA
    E-mail: bchou@uwaterloo.ca
    KEYWORDS
    coatings • impact resistance • Phoenix • spectacle lenses • Trivex

    ABSTRACT
    Purpose: To investigate how the impact resistance of Hoya Phoenix spectacle lenses is affected by centre thickness and the application of a multilayer antireflection (MAR) coating.

    Methods: Four groups of plano lenses were tested: dress thickness with scratch resistant (SR) coating on both surfaces, dress thickness with SR and MAR, industrial thickness with SR and industrial thickness with SR and MAR. Lenses were edged to a clear circular aperture of 50 mm with a 0.5 mm hidden bevel and mounted in a specially-designed lens support. A pneumatic gun was used to propel a 6.35 mm steel ball at the centre of each lens. Impact speed was varied using the ZEST protocol to determine the threshold breakage speed.

    Results: The threshold breakage speeds of the dress and industrial thickness SR lenses were 55.1 and 63.2 m/s, respectively and the corresponding threshold breakage speeds for SR-MAR lenses were 50.1 and 54.7 m/s. All comparisons were statistically significant using Student's t-test with a rejection level of p < 0.005. Unlike polycarbonate lenses, dress thickness Phoenix lenses do not display 'oilcanning' deformation on high energy impact and therefore are less likely to be dislodged from their mountings.

    Conclusions: We found that the mean impact resistance of the Phoenix lenses was greater than the level required of eye protector lenses by the standards AS/NZS 1337:1992, ANSI Z87.1-2003 and CSA Z94.3-02. Similar to CR39 and polycarbonate, the application of MAR to Phoenix lenses reduces their impact resistance, however, they provide an acceptable level of impact protection in industrial settings, where there is little danger of exposure to pointed or sharp-edged high-speed missiles.

    Submitted: 26 April 2005
    Revised: 5 August 2005
    Accepted for publication: 20 August 2005
    Last edited by rinselberg; 08-15-2008 at 06:11 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson View Post
    Dear Ocular,
    Count the day lost when you can't learn something new! I have never heard, read, or to my knowledge seen, any info on the loss of Impact resistance on an AR treated lens. Where can I find the studies?
    Thats what makes being in the optical business so great! There is not a day that goes by that I don't learn something new. I have learned volumes on Optiboard alone.

    The study was done by COLTS, here's the link http://www.lwwvisioncare.com/emails/...r/4/index.html

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz View Post
    Happylady,

    Since this thread is veering of course, how about posting that question in the general forum! I think the answers will be very interesting.
    Fezz, I did start a thread about this a few weeks ago but it didn't go anywhere.

    Thanks for all the links and information, people! :cheers:

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