Face To Face CE Credits

**hcjilson** · 09-06-2001, 07:12 AM

The Mass Bd of Registration completed its revision of the current Mass Rules and Regulations yesterday.The Board has decided to increase the CE requirements.I brought up the subject of distance learning and obtaining CE's over the net.There was some discussion concerning whether or not they should be allowed, and also whether a percentage should be "face to face" CE's.

At this point our legal counsel jumped in to say that according to the American with Disabilities Act if home study courses are allowed, then ALL home study or distance learning must count.You can not discriminate against those who may be incapacitated.As unlikely as the situation may be for someone requiring credits to be incapacitated, the possibility does exist, and a challenge to "face to face" will succeed.New York and Connecticut will have to change their requirement in order to comply.I can't believe their respective counsels let this go through.

Lets face it, the "face to face" requirements are there to benefit the state societies, and independent companies who offer CE courses for profit.I feel that the individual will probably gain as much, if not more knowledge, through distance learning.

Thats the view from Cape Cod this morning.

best from Harry j

**Joann Raytar** · 09-06-2001, 07:37 AM

Harry,

Tricky one here. CT does require "face to face" CE for License renewal. This includes any credits you are using to renew you CT License. You may then use your CT License renewal to renew your ABO/NCLE Certification. However, if you are not Licensed and only looking to renew ABO/NCLE credits then you may use online credits.

CT does make aquiring face to face credits simple. Twice a year the COA holds "Super Sunday." This is an event that offers quality CE courses and allows folks to get all of their renewal credits in one place if they attend both times. CT Opticians, see the following thread for info:

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...&threadid=2842

**hcjilson** · 09-06-2001, 09:00 AM

Forgive me Jo, I've only had one cup of coffee...

Making it simple isn't enough unless whomever is offering these courses is equiped, and prepared to offer these courses one on one, to any and all licensed individuals who are incapacitated.If Connecticut and New York allow ONE course to be taken at home by distance learning, they must allow them ALL, or be subject to a challenge, which they will not be able to defend.At least this was the opinion of our counsel yesterday.

hj
Remember when ADA stood for Americans for Democratic Action???That was before society turned so litigenous!:D

**Joann Raytar** · 09-06-2001, 07:11 PM

Harry,

There are folks out there giving CE lectures who are mobile, usually vendors or labs. I know these folks go out to businesses. I am sure that if more than one person was present for the lecture that something could be worked out.

I am not trying to steal your thunder; I am only saying that there is away to get face to face CE credits in many situations.

CT's problem with online courses is being unable to prove that the person claiming to take the course is actually the person taking it. It is more a matter of curbing cheaters than trying to be unaccomadating.

**hcjilson** · 09-06-2001, 09:00 PM

Partner, follow the logic!
If one didn't NEED the course why would one be taking it? Am I going to have someone take an online course for me, using my machine and e-mail address-just so I can get the certification? In the words of the late, lamented...HOMEY D. CLOWN.......I don't think so!!!!!Who checks ID's at seminars.No one has ever asked me to prove who I was at a seminar-Even at Expo (some years ago admittedly) all you needed was your name badge and paper work you signed up for.Really a needless worry.

When you submit courses for audit purposes you do so under the "pain and penalty of purgery" How does
CT certify that the individual submitting the face to face credit was the one who, in fact, took the course? We both know the answer to thatquestion.They DON'T!

If ONE or MORE courses is acceptable for distance learning.....what possible reason could there be for not having them ALL acceptable??Again,(my opinion) the ONLY reasons for face to face requirements are Profit driven rather than motivated by education.Face to face serves only the societies and organizations who offer these courses.They are looking to increase membership and to move product.I must in fainess add that they proivide a valuable service as well, but the need to get education face to face is non existant.
The view from Cape Cod tonight! from friend harry

Hey partner, lets get Steve to split this thread and put this subject up on its own.Its a great subject but our side discussion will water down the search for Online CE sources.I would love to see this in a forum with a wider audience...(if possible):bbg: :bbg:

**Joann Raytar** · 09-06-2001, 10:01 PM

I never said I agreed with face to face CE.

I wish online credits were acceptable. Think of the possibilities. The courses could be meatier and cover a broader range of topics. CT has restrictions on what % of hours each type of CE may be. You can only submit a limited number of hours for topics like business management or insurance handling; the stress is on fitting, optical mechanics, anatomy and etc. It would be good to have more choices that pertain to the appropriate categories.

I wonder how your identity is verified if you are taking a degree course online? Any idea Harry?

(I hope the preceding babble made sense. ;) )

**hcjilson** · 09-07-2001, 06:34 AM

Jo I think online degree courses are monitored reasonably closely.In post graduate courses you are usually assigned a mentor who is there to help you over the rough spots and sort of keep you on track.I met one when I was in Anaheim, associated with WMcD (who will receive a copy of this page for his comments, as well as DrRoy)I have no experience in undergraduate level courses ( the internet not having been invented in 1960-64) but I do know that undergraduate exams are administered and proctored by a librarian the Hyannis library on occasion.

Concerning online courses, and accrediting by the States: The Massachusetts board uses the same guidelines that we do to accredit face to face CE's.ABO, NCLE,anything accredited by NFOS- and we still have the leeway to accredit anything we consider to be worthwhile.Case in point, IF our current draft revision stands, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts will allow an hour credit for completing a CPR course!It really has nothing to do with Optics....but it may save someone's life someday!
Back to my 3rd cuppa! the view from Hyannis this AM
Your friend and loyal co moderator hj

**Laurie** · 09-07-2001, 07:27 AM

Hi Jo, Harry and other 'boarders...

We cannot know for sure that our student is actually on the other end of the computer...(I think it is unlikely, though, given that they are paying $$ for the information).

Each student has their own user ID, but I could not stop them from having someone else log on for them.

Students take some quizzes and exam on the Internet, but they take their midterm and final exams in person to be sure they are learning the course objectives.

Hope that helps,

Laurie

**Joann Raytar** · 09-07-2001, 07:39 AM

That does help Laurie!

How are the DL programs utilizing video conferencing? Also, if you could refresh my mind, how many credit hours make up a semester?

Do some states and the ABO/NCLE count accredited college courses towards certification and license renewal? If not, I wonder why not?

**hcjilson** · 09-07-2001, 09:23 AM

Laurie, Does your institution offer distance courses for credit? If so, how are the quiz's and exam's proctored?
tx and bst from harry j

**Laurie** · 09-07-2001, 11:40 AM

Harry and Jo (and boarders!)

We are offering our entire degree via distance learning. So far, we have marketed primarily in Florida so we can keep our students close, and because of in-state Vs. out-of-state tuition.

I will attach our e-info packet.

Harry...all course are for college credit here at HCC. The student typically takes their general ed courses (English, Math, etc) at the local community college near them and transfers the credits in.

At this point we have insisted that all students arrive in Tampa at least twice (for day 1 for computer/course training, orientation), and again to sit for the final exams.

We mail out the midterm exams to Proctors (a college, library, church) and the connect with a specific person at the institution for us to mail to.

All labs are done at dispensaries where a sponsor works with the instructor making sure hands-on learning objectives are met.

Here's more info:

: )