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Thread: Essilor's progressive Identifier Engravings

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    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Essilor's progressive Identifier Engravings

    I have discovered a disturbing trend by Essilor. It seems that they have decided to engrave the ellipse 360 identically to the regular ellipse. They did the same thing with the Physio and the Physio 360. Ditto with most of the newest designs. WHAT ARE THEY THINKING??

    As an independent Optician, I can do little but boycott them:angry:. If a new client walks into my shop and wants new lenses or new glasses, the first thing I do is determine the type of progressive they are wearing. If they are wearing a Physio or Ellipse, I would NOT be able to tell if it's a regular or 360 design. Also if I sell one, I would not be able to VERIFY THE LENS TYPE.

    I know of no other manufacturer that has done this.:hammer:
    Last edited by mike.elmes; 03-29-2008 at 04:09 PM.

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    Same with Ovation and Ovation ADS

    It is dumb

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes View Post
    I know of no other manufacturer that has done this.:hammer:
    You might soon, if you take into consideration that the 360 is just an ellipse or physio blank digitally compensated on the back you can probably figure out why this is happening. The balnks already have markings fresh outta the mold. On other digital products (eg Seiko and Shamir) you can use any SV lens blank so the lens has to be marked anyway which means you will be able to distinguish it from others. In the case of definity it only comes in a digitaly surfaced product so their is no need to distinguish the processing technique involved, after all that would be like the lab marking the lens to show it was edged with 3M pads vs others.

    I would be curious to know if the Varilux 360 comes with different markings?
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    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    All manufacturers should be forced to identify their product for verification, otherwise,
    the consumer could receive the much cheaper but identically marked non digital lenses. Case in point, I ordered a pair of ellipse 360's last week for a client.....Four days later the lenses show up. I'm thinking wow, great service....but wait a minute, did I order these wrong? Nope, says the lab these are the new lenses but share the old markings. Hmmm what the heck could it cost to add a letter to the standard engravings for verification purposes, like Nikon did with their new digital i and digital Go progressives. Perhaps Essilor is poising the original designs for discontinuation? This seems unlikely.
    Last edited by mike.elmes; 03-29-2008 at 02:28 PM.

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes View Post
    All manufacturers should be forced to identify their product for verification, or
    the consumer could receive the much cheaper but identically marked bretheren.:idea:
    The free form version is just optimized, their are no markings on the Rx that show anyone if they have been vertex comp'd or tilt comp'd. If an optician is worth their weight in salt a lensclock would tell them if the back surface was traditionally surfaced or not. It's far easier to apply knowledge than have the manufacturer engrave every lens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes View Post
    All manufacturers should be forced to identify their product for verification, or
    the consumer could receive the much cheaper but identically marked bretheren.:idea:
    It is not just that, but lets say a client comes in looking for glasses. You read the lenses and find that they are Ovations. Do them up, and now (s)he comes back and says that they cannot see through them. After further information, you find that it is not that they cannot see out of them, but they cannot see as clearly as the ones before. You check the rx's and they are the same. You over-refract, and you find it is dead on. They leave with a tongue in cheek and look down on you for not providing what they are used to.

    Why? Because the last person put the patient in ADS and you put them in regular. The difference is slight, but it is noticeable.

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    It is not just that, but lets say a client comes in looking for glasses. You read the lenses and find that they are Ovations. Do them up, and now (s)he comes back and says that they cannot see through them. After further information, you find that it is not that they cannot see out of them, but they cannot see as clearly as the ones before. You check the rx's and they are the same. You over-refract, and you find it is dead on. They leave with a tongue in cheek and look down on you for not providing what they are used to.

    Why? Because the last person put the patient in ADS and you put them in regular. The difference is slight, but it is noticeable.
    For-Life,

    A simple change in the way you would check these lenses would give you the information you would need to determine which flavor oavtion the patient was wearing and avoid Essilor having to pass the additional cost of laser engraving every lens onto the opticians that can and will take the time to figure it out.

    I understand the point that the lenses look identical but will behave differently, but that could be said about any traditional lens as prgressives have a tolerance for warpage as 1.00 D here in the states.
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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    The free form version is just optimized, their are no markings on the Rx that show anyone if they have been vertex comp'd or tilt comp'd. If an optician is worth their weight in salt a lensclock would tell them if the back surface was traditionally surfaced or not. It's far easier to apply knowledge than have the manufacturer engrave every lens.
    But then, what if the lens clock showed traditional standard base and cross curves while the invoice indicated a "premium" product.

    With the skill of the opticianry craft declining and the marketing of lens products increasing the labs have a wonderful opportunity to foist of inferior product on the unsuspecting eyewear sales person. There is only one solution and marking ain't it.



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    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    I would like to hear directly from an Essilor rep as to why this is being done. I will contact the OLA and see what the rules and regs are.

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    But then, what if the lens clock showed traditional standard base and cross curves while the invoice indicated a "premium" product.

    With the skill of the opticianry craft declining and the marketing of lens products increasing the labs have a wonderful opportunity to foist of inferior product on the unsuspecting eyewear sales person. There is only one solution and marking ain't it.

    Then they say it's too subtle for your lensclock to pick up, theri lenses are that sophisticated. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes
    I will contact the OLA and see what the rules and regs are.
    ?
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    OptiBoard Professional RT's Avatar
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    I will contact the OLA and see what the rules and regs are.
    The OLA (Optical Laboratories Assocation, www.ola-labs.org) is a trade association represeting laboratories. They would have no rules or regulations concerning the engraving marks on semi-finished lens blanks. The OLA does, however, compile a reference guide to those markings for member labs and their customers.

    The VCA (Vision Council of America, www.visionsite.org) has both a Direct Surfacing Task Force and a Lens Marking Task Force. Both of these committees are working toward voluntary standards that might relate to your concern of identifying products that have customized or non-traditional surfaces (including back-surface-only progressives), among other topics. The next meeting of both committees is prior to Vision Expo East, April 9-10, 2008.
    RT

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    Bad address email on file Freedom's Avatar
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    In Thailand have ... the same ploblem
    I cannot Identified between Physio and Physio 360.

    I avoid this ploblem by ... I NOT sale the product Physio.

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    Just wondering.

    If you know the brand and you know the RX, won't you have a pretty good idea which one it is? Also, if it is a lesser RX and in a 360, can they really tell the difference anyway?

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.

    Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.

    How to tell the difference, USE A LENS CLOCK ON THE BACK SURFAEC OF THE LENS.

    If the lens surface is spherical or toric, then it's the Physio.
    If the lens surface it aspheric or atoric, then it's the Physio 360.

    You know I used to catch flack fro not believeing the hype about digitally surfaced lenses since the manufacturere's don't provide me with enough information to determine when it is necessary and when it's not, and then I hear opticiasn complaining about markings?

    You Canadian guys especially since the Alberta Standard of Practice page 3 first bulleted list item 3 is a lens guage. I am sure they would want you guys to use it, this would be a great way to seperate the weak from the flock. Let them complian about fitting patients in the wrong lens and all you need to do is clock every physio to see which processing was employed. It might be nice to even set this as a price on a price list, traditional vs. digital. I have a feeling real soon we will start seeing aspheric and atoric surfaces applied to every progressive on the market.
    Last edited by HarryChiling; 03-31-2008 at 12:03 PM.
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    One eye sees, the other feels OptiBoard Silver Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.
    Ok.

    Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.
    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it can be aspheric or atoric? In other words, might the 360 line of lenses use spherical or toric curves even though that surface is generated with free-form technology?
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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    Ok.

    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it can be aspheric or atoric? In other words, might the 360 line of lenses use spherical or toric curves even though that surface is generated with free-form technology?
    You might be right there, heck if the base is right and the Rx is right you might even get a spherical curve on the back of a physio with no difference. The point is that it should be easily identifiable if a little knowledge is applied. The use of these highly sophisticated lenses should not be put in just anyones hands (For-Life and mike.elmes I know you guys are great opticians). I just think it would be nice to leave some thinking in our industry.
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    Just An Optician jediron1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    You might be right there, heck if the base is right and the Rx is right you might even get a spherical curve on the back of a physio with no difference. The point is that it should be easily identifiable if a little knowledge is applied. The use of these highly sophisticated lenses should not be put in just anyones hands (For-Life and mike.elmes I know you guys are great opticians). I just think it would be nice to leave some thinking in our industry.

    I think you and Robert are basically saying the same thing. I think what it comes down to is that when in the office setting at times it gets busy and you would like an easy way to tell the slight differences between the lenses without having to pull out your protractor and trying to calculate the angles and curves to see if it's a physio or physio 360. just my take :cheers:

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jediron1 View Post
    I think you and Robert are basically saying the same thing. I think what it comes down to is that when in the office setting at times it gets busy and you would like an easy way to tell the slight differences between the lenses without having to pull out your protractor and trying to calculate the angles and curves to see if it's a physio or physio 360. just my take :cheers:
    I don't think it's too dificult to figue it out, but who knows a couple people seem to be irratated enough to not use the lenses so it must be a nuisance, right. Anyway leave the protractor out of it and grab the lens clock. ;)
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    Just An Optician jediron1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    I don't think it's too dificult to figue it out, but who knows a couple people seem to be irratated enough to not use the lenses so it must be a nuisance, right. Anyway leave the protractor out of it and grab the lens clock. ;)

    Oh come on Harry that old protractor I had to dust off and your right some do seem a little agitated over it I'm not I was just trying to give a reason why some might be. just my take

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    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    Physio = Traditional Surfacing, which means back side will be spherical or toric.

    Physio 360 = Digital or Free Form Surfacing, which means the back will be aspheric or atoric.

    How to tell the difference, USE A LENS CLOCK ON THE BACK SURFAEC OF THE LENS.

    If the lens surface is spherical or toric, then it's the Physio.
    If the lens surface it aspheric or atoric, then it's the Physio 360.

    You know I used to catch flack fro not believeing the hype about digitally surfaced lenses since the manufacturere's don't provide me with enough information to determine when it is necessary and when it's not, and then I hear opticiasn complaining about markings?

    You Canadian guys especially since the Alberta Standard of Practice page 3 first bulleted list item 3 is a lens guage. I am sure they would want you guys to use it, this would be a great way to seperate the weak from the flock. Let them complian about fitting patients in the wrong lens and all you need to do is clock every physio to see which processing was employed. It might be nice to even set this as a price on a price list, traditional vs. digital. I have a feeling real soon we will start seeing aspheric and atoric surfaces applied to every progressive on the market.
    Harry, I doubt its quite as simple as you might think....toric back surface or atoric?? I mastered the use of a lens clock 25 years ago. It wasn't invented for that purpose I can assure you. The consumer is at risk of being sold digital and being duped for regular. Now the Comfort digital is out and let me see.....the same markings as the regular comfort.:finger: I spoke to a rep who suggested maybe a holograph like Nikon uses.

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    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes View Post
    Harry, I doubt its quite as simple as you might think....toric back surface or atoric?? I mastered the use of a lens clock 25 years ago. It wasn't invented for that purpose I can assure you.
    Mike,

    It was invented to measure curves, if you move the clock across the back surface and it changes the lens in aspheric which can only be applied by use of FF processing, if you get a spherical or toric curve then it can be processed by either FF or traditionla surfaceing. As for the customer being duped, there is a right Rx for every base physio that will perform just like the physio 360, and the manufacturer doesn't feel it necessary to let you or me know which Rx this is, how's that for duped.
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    OptiBoard Professional Mauro.Airoldi's Avatar
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    CX an CC

    The esy way to verify if you have a standard progressive lens (progression on CX) or a freeform (progressione on CC) is verify where is the laser sign. On standard are on CX, (because the RX is done on CC).
    The freeform sign is on CC, because the laser is used only ad the end of the costrudtion (before deblocking the lens) and the CX face is cover from the blocker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauro.Airoldi View Post
    The esy way to verify if you have a standard progressive lens (progression on CX) or a freeform (progressione on CC) is verify where is the laser sign. On standard are on CX, (because the RX is done on CC).
    The freeform sign is on CC, because the laser is used only ad the end of the costrudtion (before deblocking the lens) and the CX face is cover from the blocker.
    Mauro,

    Let me be sure I understand. Are you saying for the Essilor Physio (not 360) you can look at the convex side of the lens and the engraving will read left to right: "H" - " e with rays pointing to the left" - "Pi" (Greek letter) but if it is the Physio "360" the engraving will be on the concave side and therefore when reading it from the front (convex side) it will be reversed: from left to right: "Pi" - "e with rays pointing right" - "H"

    Is that correct? Thanks.

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    OptiBoard Professional Mauro.Airoldi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickJohnson2008 View Post
    Mauro,

    Let me be sure I understand. Are you saying for the Essilor Physio (not 360) you can look at the convex side of the lens and the engraving will read left to right: "H" - " e with rays pointing to the left" - "Pi" (Greek letter) but if it is the Physio "360" the engraving will be on the concave side and therefore when reading it from the front (convex side) it will be reversed: from left to right: "Pi" - "e with rays pointing right" - "H"

    Is that correct? Thanks.

    Then you read from cx side you read correct every time(freeform or not) because in std. progressive laser sig is on cx and is write in correct way.
    on freeform laser sig is on cc but is write in opposite way.
    to be clear
    if yo look from cx you see
    it is a std shamir progressiveClick image for larger version. 

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    the same is for Click image for larger version. 

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    it is a shamir freeform

    but realy the laser printing, done on cc is Click image for larger version. 

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    it's not easy understand the side where is done the laser but you can angolate the lens in reference of the light and it became esy.

    I hope to be understandable, if not let me know.

    Mauro

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    Identifying Physio 360

    Mauro,Thank you for the detailed explanation.I probably confused this issue because I "assumed" (INCORRECTLY) that the Varilix Physio 360 was ground on both convex and concave surfaces like the Shamir you mention.I have learned that it is NOT! The Physio blank is used for the Physio 360 and both are ground only on the concave surface. Apparently the "360's" surfacing (concave side) is different from the regular Physio and incorporates additional wavelet digital surfacing but there is no way for a consumer to tell the difference because the identification is on the convex surface of the blank (from the mould which casts in the wavelet design).After this was explained to me I looked back at the Varilux website and their statements are consistent with this explanation but in my first reading I certainly got the impression they were "ground" on both front and back as I believe a few other forum members seemed to think so I wanted to correct my remarks before I reinforced that misinformation.

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