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Thread: Today I had a patient in with his wife

  1. #1
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    Today I had a patient in with his wife

    It seems wifey had bought a sonic cleaner at one of the upper class gift stores and decided to clean hubby's 167 index lenses in it. Instructions said use water only and she did. Partially stripped off the scratch coat. And I guess I'll have to get in touch with Chris to get something that will take the rest of it off.
    But think, how many of us have tossed complete glasses into the sonic cleaner for a good cleaning? Anyone had similarly disasterous results? Could this be one of those things that causes coating failures and we just don't realize we may have started the process in our office with our machines.

    Chip

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    Don't have an ultrasonic anymore. Stopped with them about 10 years ago. An old toothbrush and soap works fine. If not, thery are not on my face.

    Chip, try soaking the lenses in greased lightning. I have been experimenting with this to strip AR's. Works on anything I have done from the chains, but I tried a crizal, no go.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    My experience is that no good quality, intact (no pin holes) AR will come undone in an ultrasonic cleaner filler with water.


    FWIW

    Barry

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    Did the lenses have AR? I always remove lenses with AR before putting the frames in the sonic cleaner. Maybe they will be okay but I would rather not take the chance. I have not had a problem with non AR lenses.

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    No AR just SRC.

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    Chip, I feel your pain. I have had a few issues with the SRC coatings. I think everyone was on a high index lens. What a mess! I even had one lens that the coating went and the lens itself turned "milky". That was fun replacing!

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    Our ultrasonic died over a year ago. I just never replaced it. The only time it is missed is when the ladies want to clean their jewelry. A toothbrush works better. I was tired of changing and keeping up with the solution anyway.

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    Master OptiBoarder mike.elmes's Avatar
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    We use an ultrasonic cleaner daily and with a dollup of MR Clean....However it has a timer and it only goes for a minute or two. thousands of uses and not one problem with a coating coming off. Customers love how clean I get them.
    I even have a few customers who have bought their own ultrasonic cleaners.
    The one we use cost 50 dollars and is available at the Source. for 10 dollars more they'll warranty it for 3 years.I took the warranty and am on my second unit. This thing is great value! Come on you people, the coatings are better now a days....they can handle the soap solution in the ultrasonic!!

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    You can get a good one with a three minite timer (perfectly fits a pair of eyeglasses) at Harbour Frieght for $19.95.

    Chip

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    My experience is that no good quality, intact (no pin holes) AR will come undone in an ultrasonic cleaner filler with water.


    FWIW

    Barry
    Same here, it had to be a "home made" (not factory applied) coating.
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    I rarely use the ultrasonic... If I do, I always take the lenses out anyway... I mean really, the only reason to use it is to get rid of the nose-cheese, and when it's that bad, it's usually built up between the frame and lens anyway, so take em out! Little bit of markaway for the edges of the lenses, and we're good to go. :D

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    OptiBoard Professional Kyle's Avatar
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    I've pretty much gotten in the habit of removing lenses almost any time I'm adjusting/cleaning. It's a pain, but there are some cheap AR's out there that will flake/craze if you just blink the wrong way, let alone with such vibration or heat as in the case of an ultrasonic cleaner or frame warmer.

    Not having an ultrasonic unit for the eyeglass dispensary, and having not used one in years, I wonder how top coats on cheaper frames perform? Any flaking there?

    Kyle
    Last edited by Kyle; 03-11-2008 at 08:34 AM.

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    Paper Shuffler GOS_Queen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    I've pretty much gotten in the habit of removing lenses almost any time I'm adjusting/cleaning. It's a pain, but there are some cheap AR's out there that will flake/craze if you just blink the wrong way, let alone with such vibration or heat as in the case of a frame warmer.

    Not having an ultrasonic unit for the eyeglass dispensary, and having not used one in years, I wonder how top coats on cheaper frames perform? Any flaking there?

    Kyle

    I'm not sure I would want the customer to remove lenses at home (that's probably just me, though).


    Yes, the top coats on the cheaper frames will come off when exposed to ultrasonic machine (thus says the Queen of recycling used glasses for the GOS program ... I've seen many a top coat peel right off ... :()

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    Blue Jumper Not having an ultrasonic unit.....................

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post

    Not having an ultrasonic unit for the eyeglass dispensary, and having not used one in years, I wonder how top coats on cheaper frames perform? Any flaking there?

    Kyle

    I understand fully




    .........not having has one, you could not use it.

    Ultrasonic cleaning is originally meant for the frame and not the lenses. In the instructions a long time ago it was suggested to remove the lenses and the clean the frame.

    The ultrasound effect is that it shakes microscopic dirt and fat particles out of places you can not even get with your old tooth brush, like in the hinges and tiny corners.

    Using you own soapy concoction with Mr Clean is fine and dandy and it cleans, but real commercial ultrasound cleaners are made
    with different surfactant mixes that do not promote any damage on frames .....and lenses (even if you should clean them manually),,,,,,,,,,guess most opticians are too lazy to remove the lenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fezz
    I think everyone was on a high index lens. What a mess! I even had one lens that the coating went and the lens itself turned "milky".
    I would translate above confession to a home made cleaning concoction that contained some unfriendly chemicals that hate polycarbonate lenses, who then turn milky under protest.

    Some lens manufacturers like Transition use large ultrasonic cleaners and so do AR coating laboratories in their cleaning process, and all on lenses of various types, I assume they use safe and recommended chemical solutions that have been made for this purpose. :D

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    Please Pay attention

    We are talking about scratch coating only. Not ARC.
    We are talking about sonic cleaners used with Water Only!
    We are talking about high and ultra high index plastic lenses only.
    Mostly on lenses with over a year of patient use.

    Just to add to the confusion I have also have had several patients of late who were burning tree limbs, barbqueing, etc. That have ARC on relatively new lenses (usually high and ultra high index lenses) with coating failures. Should we be dispensing lenses that fail under peoples ordinary activities. Should we only sell them to socialites that do nothing more dangerous than picking the right color panty hose?


    Now that we are back on subject, any similar experiences or advise?

    Chip
    Last edited by chip anderson; 03-11-2008 at 09:38 AM. Reason: !

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    Be careful with jewelry in them, too. An employee had a small diamond fall out of her ring when she cleaned it in the ultra sonic unit.

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    Blue Jumper High index delamination..................

    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Just to add to the confusion I have also have had several patients of late who were burning tree limbs, barbqueing, etc. That have ARC on relatively new lenses (usually high and ultra high index lenses) with coating failures. Should we be dispensing lenses that fail under peoples ordinary activities.
    Chip
    Hard coats are made with different and harder plastics than the lens material. They are chemically bonded to the lens surface. As they have not the same hardness they have not the same expansion or contraction coffined.
    Therefore when exposed to sudden heat the front will heat up faster than the back side and there is a tension developing between the 2 surfaces, which then can cause delamination.

    You got to make up your own mind if you want to sell high index to people that do not really need them, just because they are thinner with flat curves that where not desirable in the old days of more perfect optics, ..............unless needed in very high prescriptions...................I guess it's all about money.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter DragonLensmanWV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    We are talking about scratch coating only. Not ARC.
    We are talking about sonic cleaners used with Water Only!
    We are talking about high and ultra high index plastic lenses only.
    Mostly on lenses with over a year of patient use.

    Just to add to the confusion I have also have had several patients of late who were burning tree limbs, barbqueing, etc. That have ARC on relatively new lenses (usually high and ultra high index lenses) with coating failures. Should we be dispensing lenses that fail under peoples ordinary activities. Should we only sell them to socialites that do nothing more dangerous than picking the right color panty hose?


    Now that we are back on subject, any similar experiences or advise?

    Chip
    You are assuming she actually did use water only. How many customers and patients actually follow detailed instructions? Answer:not that many of them.
    She could also have left them buzzing overnight. She could have put in industrial cleaner. She could have buzzed them every night for hours. I haven't ever had a coating failure in the ultrasonic. I have noted that some 1.60 and 1.67 seem to have premature coating failures and I have removed a lot of partially failed coatings, including AR.
    But let's face it - uncoated CR-39 is just not for everyone.You are perfectly able to sell your customers whatever you want. I doubt you do sell only CR-39. If only CR-39 was available, I would be in a 25 mm myodisk.
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    OptiBoard Professional Kyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOS_Queen View Post
    I'm not sure I would want the customer to remove lenses at home (that's probably just me, though).

    I never suggested patients remove their own lenses.

    And Chip, there are mentionable problems with both AR and SR in dealing with ultrasonic cleaning, though clearly yours was specific to SR.

    I haven't had a material-specific problem with lens longevity/durability since those nasty 1.6's from Sola a few years back. I think that problem may have been more related to the index than the company, though.

    What I HAVE experienced, in relation to your last post, is serious crazing issues when lenses are exposed to extreme heat, especially on some "generics". I believe that issue is primarily with mid-high index/poly (not CR39), but I haven't done a study on it. I haven't noticed that problem on premium coatings like Teflon, Advantage, CleAR, or Alize. This is, despite my using those coatings, THE main reason I remove lenses when using a frame warmer.

    As far as the socialites vs/us regular folk go, I'm sure the tires on their cars go as flat as mine if they run over a road full of nails. The problem is that consumer awareness of optics and the problems/responsibilities associated with can be summed up in a LC commercial. It sucks, but education is the key. You could always double your price and then offer an unconditional one-time replacement.

    One of our colleagues, Valerie Manso (brilliant speaker), would have you sell the backyarders a special pair of Barbeque-ing safety glasses with no coatings.

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    Hoya ECP's, Super ARC

    I put Docs ecp, 170, 1 years use, super arc into the ultrasonic and guess what, they peeled. Yes they were replaced but the thought of a pt. and of course their only pair well from that point forward no one else gets the ultrasonic treatment. I use warm water, foam dawn and toothbrush.

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    bonding not good

    We do lots of hard coat on high index/poly, the coating may come off if the lens surface is not clean. once the coating got partially off after tinting, similar like yours. The coating is a very thin layer of different material, it will come off under certain circumstance, but it is very rare.

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    Just An Optician jediron1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    It seems wifey had bought a sonic cleaner at one of the upper class gift stores and decided to clean hubby's 167 index lenses in it. Instructions said use water only and she did. Partially stripped off the scratch coat. And I guess I'll have to get in touch with Chris to get something that will take the rest of it off.
    But think, how many of us have tossed complete glasses into the sonic cleaner for a good cleaning? Anyone had similarly disasterous results? Could this be one of those things that causes coating failures and we just don't realize we may have started the process in our office with our machines.

    Chip

    I was wondering if she used something before she used the sonic like glass plus with ammonia? You know ammonia is a killer to cotes.
    just a thought ;)

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