AR not slick

[obxeyeguy]

Twice this week I had people tell me that their AR does not clean as easily as it did when new. Both pairs are about 6 months old(crizal alize CG). I could also notice a difference because one guy had 2 pair, purchased same time, only really wears one of them, big difference between them. Wondering if I should look at a product, like Chis has to try to re-coat the lenses. Will I damage them? Will it work?? Anyone else experiencing this? Any help welcome.

[optical24/7]

That's the hype with Crizal Avance'. It's supposed to hold it's hydro top coat longer. (Claims by them, not me, 20k cleanings/life of Rx.) I"ve also thought of using Chris' hydro coat to re-apply on older lenses. I'm sure Chris will chime in and let us know it won't hurt to re-coat with his product.

[HarryChiling]

I'll chime in and let you know that recoating with Chris's product won't hurt the lenses, it works on mirrors and non-AR coated lenses as well. Good product and if you like you can charge them $5.00 - $10.00 to recoat their lenses, but the dramatic difference comes when you order a non-branded AR product and apply it, then the difference is phenominal.

[snowmonster]

I've used Chris Ryser's product and it does make lenses more slick. I can't say it's as slick as Alize or Teflon, but it was definitely made a basic AR-coated lens slicker after it was applied.

On the other hand, why not just order this guy a new pair of lenses since there should be a 2 year warranty with the CACG?

[obxeyeguy]

I've used Chris Ryser's product and it does make lenses more slick. I can't say it's as slick as Alize or Teflon, but it was definitely made a basic AR-coated lens slicker after it was applied.

On the other hand, why not just order this guy a new pair of lenses since there should be a 2 year warranty with the CACG?

Because they are only 6 months old. Nothing tells me that the new pair will last much longer. Plus, warranty re-dos do really "cost" me.

[For-Life]

The one problem with the new ARs is that they are originally so easy to clean, that people are harder on them. They clean them dry with their shirts. So it does not hold up as well after that.

[Chris Ryser]

Twice this week I had people tell me that their AR does not clean as easily as it did when new. Both pairs are about 6 months old(crizal alize CG). I could also notice a difference because one guy had 2 pair, purchased same time, only really wears one of them, big difference between them.

Actually I was wondering for the last 2 years how long it would take for somebody to make this post. obxeyeguy you got the golden award.

I knew it had to come one of these days. All these slick coats are made with the same materials, the application may differ, but still the same basic materials. It is very resistant to chemicals, but nothing is safe against abrasion

The one problem with the new ARs is that they are originally so easy to clean, that people are harder on them. They clean them dry with their shirts. So it does not hold up as well after that.

You hit the nail right into the coffin. The word is abrasion, as you say cleaning with dry or wet kleenex, their shirt, their Jean Jackets and more.The layer is only filling the gaps between the crystals of the AR coating so the dirt can not go in between.

So, of course it is sensitive to abrasion and when it starts going into the gaps and reduces the even layer that originally is even with the top of the crystal you will get a reduced performance. I have known that for many years. You can preach people not to do it that way, but it will never work.

I'll chime in and let you know that recoating with Chris's product won't hurt the lenses, it works on mirrors and non-AR coated lenses as well. Good product and if you like you can charge them $5.00 - $10.00 to recoat their lenses, but the dramatic difference comes when you order a non-branded AR product and apply it, then the difference is phenominal.

Harry as you said it and here I am chiming in....................

There is absolutely no problem to just apply my coating over it, and for those who want to remove it, at least with my product a one second dip into hot ethylene glycol, commonly called regular solvent neutralizer, will remove it, and then it can be re-coated. One, one to two second dip, and a second one and it will be like new.

As snowmonster suggested use the warranty..........maybe thats OK but the patients will be out of their glasses for a few days for sure.

Suggestion, when selling the glasses you should advise the patient of what can happen after a while...........and from what.......abrasion..........but I can be redone anytime in house while he waits, for whatever you want to charge. Plus the replacement will have anti-stat and anti-fog properties the original never had.

.....................................................

[Fezz]

There was a fantastic review written by an obvious optical genius about Chris's Diamond Slick Coat a while back.



http://www.optiboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19047


;)

[HarryChiling]

I knew it had to come one of these days. All these slick coats are made with the same material, the application may differ, but still the same material. It is very resistant to chemicals, but nothing is safe against abrasion

Not exactly true there, your MSDS sheet only says proprietary under the chemical formula, but under the chemical family it says silicone. Leads me to the conclusion that it is a polysiloxane coating. The interesting thing about polysiloxane coatings is that they are an inorganic organic hybrid coating, what that means to us lay opticians is that the formulation can differ and the properties of the different formulations will differ as well.

These coatings have various draw backs such as storage, they are instable in high moisture enviornments, so if you are up north here and runnign a 90+ efficientcy furnace your air is being burned or zapped of all moisture so you will see that the bottle Chris sends you will last past the expiration date. (sorry Chris had to throw that in there :D ) I would also suspect the opposite if you are down south where there is much more humidity in the air the bottle of coating will probably expire very quickly.

[Chris Ryser]

...............................you will see that the bottle Chris sends you will last past the expiration date. (sorry Chris had to throw that in there :D ) I would also suspect the opposite if you are down south where there is much more humidity in the air the bottle of coating will probably expire very quickly.

Not so Harry...................... I guess this will become a busy thread the way I suspect. :hammer:

There are hundred of polysiloxanes used in the industrial field. They can be very complicated formulas which of course are kept proprietary. So on a MSDS sheet you don't divulge any non hazardous ingredients and there could be thousands of them.

What you are talking about are polysiloxane hard coats for thermal curing. They are sensitive to humidity and only work in perfect conditions as a clean room. They have to be shipped in dry Ice and kept in the freezer.

The there are polysiloxane polymers that do cure with humidity. Humid conditions are needed to start polymerization. Heat or cold will not affect them, but humidity will.

The CRYSTAL Clear is actually a polysiloxane that works on an air cure basis, which means it starts curing with contact of oxygen and is suspended in water. The shelf life can be extended by keeping it cold in the fridge.
I have an Optometrist in New York State, who recently purchased the 17th case of 12 L bottles because he gets a discount and orders once a year since Vision Expo 1991. He still calls and asks for a case of snake oil.

Harry you have to go back to Wickipedia and and read up some on the subject :bbg:

[obxeyeguy]

Thanks to everyone for the imput. Keep it coming. Chis, I'll be in touch next week.

[Chris Ryser]

Thanks to everyone for the imput. Keep it coming. Chis, I'll be in touch next week.

obxeyeguy...........Thank you too............why do't you edit and change the title of this thread to something mor catchy like: "slick coats are wearing down"

[HarryChiling]

Harry you have to go back to Wickipedia and and read up some on the subject :bbg:

Didn't read it on wikipedia, my bottle is still going strong a month after the expiration and it's properties look to be the same as when I opened it, I don't know about the long term durability at this point, but heck I still use it and love it.

Actually it doesn't look like anyone has written on the subject in wikipedia if you care to be the first. I did think it was funny that your MSDS didn't mention polysiloxane as their is such a vast number of possibilities for it's different formulation that it would be like saying "slick coat". Anyway I use the "snake oil" not by the case, but we definately use it.

[chip anderson]

Always save the demo lenses in the patient's record, then the patient no longer need to be without thier glasses while lenses are being re-made.

Also the average plastic lens manufacturer or for that matter most members of this board feel that plastic lenses should last only 3 years max. so what's wrong with a durability of 6 months on the super-zoomo best (most expensive, with most bells and whistles)?

Chip

[THE MEB]

as far as the patient having to be without their eyeglasses for a couple of days, fi you have a finishing lab attatched to your dispensary, we set up appointments for people to wait while we cut them, of course after the uncut lenses have come in. If you don't have that luxury, there's a good chance that the lab you used cut their lenses. WE USE 4 different labs, one primarily, but all 4 labs have archive capabilities that retain the shape and size of the original order. If that is the case, simply call lab and have them cut the lenses to the archived pattern.

[LightSpeedAway]

Visit this Eyecare biz site and scroll down to the COLTS tests. It's not tough to determine who's who on the charts. It's no wonder you're seeing a reduction in the hydrophobic properties of Alize. It's a known issue. You (and your patients) pay dearly for this great, super-slick coat that's been touted as the best thing since sliced bread. Too bad the new stuff becomes like the old stuff @ ~1/4 of the way through the avg. life of the lens:angry: I'd be mad anyway.
Good thing for unlimited warranty replacements...:hammer: But nothing is free.

http://www.eyecarebiz.com/article.aspx?article=50866

[Chris Ryser]

Visit this Eyecare biz site and scroll down to the COLTS tests.

When you go to the first post on this thread.............where 2 pairs of glasses purchased at the same time 6 month ago....but only one was used, and the observation is that the slick coat has been worn down.

The following post's have pretty well defined that this is due to abrasion of one type or another. Actually people do abuse their glasses despite the good advise of their opticians to be nice to them.

However the person that spent the money for 2 pairs of full fledged AR + slick coat is probably not a construction worker or a jobless person.

Therefore the testing lab results compared to the pair discussed in this thread might last another 2 month longer before the slick coat is no longer slick.

So we are back to the basics "abrasion" damage and how to repair it. :hammer:

[obxeyeguy]

Therefore the testing lab results compared to the pair discussed in this thread might last another 2 month longer before the slick coat is no longer slick.

So we are back to the basics "abrasion" damage and how to repair it. :hammer:

My point exactly. I personally feel that ALL of the "premium AR's" will have this occur. I'm just trying to find the easiest and most cost effecient way of fixing it.

PS. Both of these patients are full time wear, and not the PIA types we see sometimes. Both simply made the statement about cleaning when in for adjustments. Both also buy premium product, a lot of it because of my recomendation.

[MarcE]

I've seen it on my own. One pair is ARxHP from Interstate. One pair is Hoya Hi-Vision w/ view protect and another is Alize. All three lasted about 6 months before the slick coat felt like the non-slick coat. and I only wear mine about every 4th day, but I clean them often due to lens sludge and poly swarf.

I'm wearing a new pair of Avance with (gulp) Scotchguard. I will report in about a year.

[FullCircle]

Having not had any patients coming in with problems of this nture, I skimmed over this thread, kinda storing in the back of my head.

Well, as luck would have it, a patient came in this very week commenting about their A/R didn't seem to be reducing glare like it once did (metal, bottom rimless). So much so, their backup glasses (full plastic frame, poly lenses) were becoming more comfortable to wear!

I noticed the color wasn't the same as other scotchguard lenses and Pt commented that they didn't seem to clean as easily. Cleaning has always been done with spray and microfiber cleaning cloth. Pt. went on to indicate that they really liked the coating as they felt they could be more gentle with it to get it clean.

Bottom line, pt is getting new lenses and old ones will be divided between our store (for reference) and our RQC.

BUT! I have a question! What can I do (and no smarmy answers please) for this pt to help keep them clean in the future? Disposable cotton towelettes and running water? 409 and 80 grit sandpaper?:D

[snowmonster]

Am I correct in that you work for LC, who has a terrible return policy for their customers? I'm curious to see how they handle this if it continues to be a problem. Will they get a 50% replacement "warranty?"

[FullCircle]

Yes I work the LC. Terrible return policy? I guess that depends on how you look at it.

I remade these at no charge to the customer. Not too terrible, eh?

Now, do you have any assistance for me on my question or did you just want to bash my place of employment more?

[THE MEB]

about five years ago I read in a trade journal a report that colts industry did concerning the best material and liquid to use to clean all types of lenses, but especially AR. the report indicated a drop of Dawn dishwashing liquid on the lens, amke a slurry with hot water, rinse thoruoghly with hot water and wipe clean with a Bounty paper towel. Since reading the article we have told literally thousands of patients about the study, and have had no returns from cleaning, if they followed our advice.

[APV Optical]

Cleanig with the "spray cleaner" should not be done daily on AR, the micro fiber cloth daily. Use the spray cleaner twice a month when glasses get really dirty. The alcohol in the cleaner will break down even the best of coatings

[Chris Ryser]

The alcohol in the cleaner will break down even the best of coatings

The regular cheap lens cleaner that most of you sell, is made with 25%-30% iSP (Isopropyle Alcohol) and the rest is water. It cleans well but provides some long term harm to AR coatings.

Spend a little more and get a surfactant based lens cleaner that will not sttac the coating.