Online frame sales - dilemma

**HarryChiling** · 02-18-2008, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by rbaker

Harry,

As we speak, two young nerds are working in a garage in Palo Alto, California on an inexpensive miniaturized phoropter that plugs into the USB port of any PC. The accompanying "number 1 or number 2" software will illicit an Rx from the end user in about a minute. The final implementation will go on line in a few years from some third world hell hole with no optometry laws and will lead to the demise of refraction as practiced by optometry and merchant opthalmology as we know it today. Getting a pair of glasses will be like getting a pair of shoes. You don't need no stinking help from a health care provider to get a good effective fit.

You just wait and see. He who laughs last, laughs best.
.

I hope that's not the future but when you paint a portraint like Van Gogh it's hard not to see it going that way. Ultimately the refraction is tied to the eyewear not the health exam like optometry likes to have everyone believe, so I could see eyeexams being given online with some sort of device especially since the task has already been sucessfully automated. You'll know when Dicks prophecy is going to come true when Microsoft start to bundle the drivers with the new operateing system for plug and play.

We may laugh last but it won't be funny.

**Jacqui** · 02-18-2008, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by rbaker

Harry,

As we speak, two young nerds are working in a garage in Palo Alto, California on an inexpensive miniaturized phoropter that plugs into the USB port of any PC. The accompanying "number 1 or number 2" software will illicit an Rx from the end user in about a minute. The final implementation will go on line in a few years from some third world hell hole with no optometry laws and will lead to the demise of refraction as practiced by optometry and merchant opthalmology as we know it today. Getting a pair of glasses will be like getting a pair of shoes. You don't need no stinking help from a health care provider to get a good effective fit.

You just wait and see. He who laughs last, laughs best.
.

This wouldn't surprise me a bit and wouldn't be that hard to do.

**HarryChiling** · 02-18-2008, 12:13 PM

You would just need a company with more legislative dollars than optometry to seperate the refraction and deem it harmless and whalla, the equipment is already their they would just need to make it smaller, more disposable, and easy to use for the layman.

**tonyl** · 02-18-2008, 04:33 PM

I agree with you guys that that an automated subjective refractor could easily happen. Glasses are already made using autorefractor prescriptions in Asia. You seem quite happy about it yet you are scared of online dispensing. All of these threats are only going to be a small part of the market. People will still buy from shops from skilled dispensers and they will still pay for eye exams from optometrists.

All I was saying was that I think it is silly to refuse to measure PDs for a fee or to refuse adjustments for a fee. Once the fees are taken into account the cost of glasses may not be cheaper for the client than buying from you. Each time they come in they can be reminded that this service is free for frames purchased from the store.

How is charging fee for service wh-oring out services? If the service fee is built into the price then is this somehow more honourable?

**HarryChiling** · 02-18-2008, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by tonyl

I agree with you guys that that an automated subjective refractor could easily happen. Glasses are already made using autorefractor prescriptions in Asia. You seem quite happy about it yet you are scared of online dispensing. All of these threats are only going to be a small part of the market. People will still buy from shops from skilled dispensers and they will still pay for eye exams from optometrists.

All I was saying was that I think it is silly to refuse to measure PDs for a fee or to refuse adjustments for a fee. Once the fees are taken into account the cost of glasses may not be cheaper for the client than buying from you. Each time they come in they can be reminded that this service is free for frames purchased from the store.

How is charging fee for service wh-oring out services? If the service fee is built into the price then is this somehow more honourable?

That's fine to charge for your services, but let me ask you what if the patient gets the PD's from you and the online vendor tells them the measurement was off, do you remake their glasses? It was your measurement?

It's amazing how you can't seperate a refraction from a medical exam yet you feel comfortable seperateing the measurement from the fabrication.

**tonyl** · 02-18-2008, 05:48 PM

I never said that refraction cannot be separated from an eye exam. As optometry becomes more medical in nature, I have no doubt that other professions will develop for refraction. In Australia it will be orthoptists, in Canada maybe opticians will have the lobying strength to do it. I doubt that refraction will be completely unregulated though.

Professions historically have changed to improve themselves. Opticians may soon be doing what optometrists were doing 25 years ago - refraction and making glasses - optometrists were then called opticians. Then the natural progression will be for refracting opticians to develop further in understanding what the see. Then they will be the same as optoms now. Professions that don't develop die out as technology changes. Nowadays, Any process worker can surface and edge lenses. However, I think there is too much subjectiveness in a large proportion of refractions to automate the process for everyone.

As far as liability, maybe you are right. If the PD is incorrect then are you liable for the cost of new lenses? How often do you get the PD wrong and how likely is it to be the problem even if it is wrong? How is the online dispenser going to check the PD? I don't see much risk, but it makes sense that it may not be worth the effort.

**Barry Santini** · 02-18-2008, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by tonyl

However, I think there is too much subjectiveness in a large proportion of refractions to automate the process for everyone.

Agreed!

As far as liability, maybe you are right. If the PD is incorrect then are you liable for the cost of new lenses? How often do you get the PD wrong and how likely is it to be the problem even if it is wrong? How is the online dispenser going to check the PD? I don't see much risk, but it makes sense that it may not be worth the effort.

But then, as Darryl Meister has correctly pointed out, it's not really the PD we're (they're?) interested in after all, is it?

It's the MRP! (?)

Barry

**Paul E. Carbonate** · 02-18-2008, 06:26 PM

The vast majority of people still don't buy shoes and jeans online. If a small percentage of people buy glasses online:
A) It's a small percentage. Big deal.
B) If what we believe is true, they'll be unhappy and quit doing that.
C) If we're wrong and the quality and vision from an auto-refraction and online purchase is as good as what we provide...Well, time for new job training. I for one don't think that will happen just as I don't think idiots who wear off-the-shelf suits without proper tailoring will ever constitute a majority of suit-wearers.
If someone wants their PD, I'll take it with a stick in three seconds and send them on their way with the caveat that they're responsible for what they do with it as it's not part of an Rx.
Online eyeglasses appeal to the cheapest and most moronic people out there. If I lose a few drooling idiots with no money to the online crowd, I'm not sure I even care.

**Optician Magician** · 02-18-2008, 11:09 PM

I had a person come in our location asking for his PD, Our policy is that we don't give it out. He then says that the web site said it was FEDERAL LAW that we HAD to give it to him. I explained that he was misinformed, at which time he told me that that same website gave him instructions for taking his own PD and measurments anyway and that he didn't really need us. I wished him luck and told him that once he realizes that his online glasses were not working for him, we would be happy to provide him a pair of quality made eyewear and insure fit, comfort, and optical quality.
Where does this website get off saying it is a Federal Law???? I can't understand how they can provide glasses online. Mailing them across state lines shouldn't supercede state laws requiring licensed dispensing opticians should it???:finger:

**legaleagle10** · 10-07-2010, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by allanon

We chared 3 people $25 for their PD's. I've decided the policy will now be that we only do PD's on in-house orders for "liability" purposes. Further explanation won't be offered.

Aren't patients entitled to their full records, and couldn't denying them access or giving them false information be a serious legal issue especially when doing it for reasons of personal gain?

**MikeAurelius** · 10-08-2010, 07:59 AM

Why do these old threads keep popping up?

**MasterCrafter** · 10-08-2010, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by legaleagle10

Aren't patients entitled to their full records, and couldn't denying them access or giving them false information be a serious legal issue especially when doing it for reasons of personal gain?

Since when are pd's part of the patients medical records? I can go into thousands of Opthalmology offices and i bet pd's are not anywhere in the record.

**Wes** · 10-08-2010, 08:57 AM

I agree Mastercrafter, in my experience, the pd is not considered to be part of the record, nor a part of the rx. However, we have a Federal system of govt, and laws vary from state to state. The founding fathers likely didn't take into account the mobility of the modern healthcare provider, or their usage of online discussion forums, just as most of the providers and forum users don't really think about what kind of govt they have, and assume their laws are THE LAW EVERYWHERE.
Most of the inane responses on these forums serve to demonstrate the overall lack of education of most American "opticians". You don't see much of that nonsense in the Canadian forum, eh?

**CuriousCat** · 10-08-2010, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

Why do these old threads keep popping up?

Random searches, probably.

**DragonLensmanWV** · 10-08-2010, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by legaleagle10

Aren't patients entitled to their full records, and couldn't denying them access or giving them false information be a serious legal issue especially when doing it for reasons of personal gain?

Are you a lawyer researching for a class action suit?

**Happylady** · 10-08-2010, 05:04 PM

Give them their PD in inches not mm.

**racethe1320** · 10-11-2010, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by For-Life

Chris, they are offering glasses for $6.00, including AR. You cannot counter that.

One thing you can do, is let them duke it out. They are trying to reach critical mass, and are using a price penetration strategy to gain that mass. They will drive each other out of business.

You don't have to counter $6. I explain the entire process and how a fitting is done by my team up front. It's that fitting that is just as important as the hardware. Just look them dead in the eye and ask them what they expect to see as a difference between our final price vs the online price. I make them answer it. That slight uncomfortable moment is them trying to feel 110% comfortable with you.

I've lost very little to the way of online. I've had folks take my script to a local Optician Owned shop that I guess you could say competes with me. That's okay. Let them provide the PD and fitting and in some cases sell the product. There's a place for everything and everyone. I can't win on both fronts all the time. My focus is on the patient not what they buy or who they buy from. That's not the "why" of me doing what it is I do.

Even those that do go online and have done so in the past, I usually sell them their next pair and in most every case, I do see them again for an updated exam or related eye concern.

People are savvy and people are sometimes cheap. I'd even say some are dumb. However, at least when they leave me they make an informed decision. Whether it's the best one, that's ultimately their call. I can say either way, I've done my best and upheld my part of the oath I swore to.

I worry less about the pair they are not buying from me than I do the subsequent visits and likely pairs I know I will sell them. More and more folks from online stores and local cheap crap-shops are coming back to me in less time than before. I know that's due in part to my integrity, openness and education I've provided them. I keep the door open as I know more often than not they will be back. Helping them save face insures that happens.

Yes, I do provide it after we go through the above. Those that push adn fight will not be who you want in your Rolodex anyway. Just my two cents.

**racethe1320** · 10-11-2010, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by HarryChiling

what if the patient gets the PD's from you and the online vendor tells them the measurement was off, do you remake their glasses? It was your measurement?

I have yet to have that happen. However, if an online shop tells one of my patients the PD was off, and the patient came back to me for a remake, I'd say that I would gladly remake them if I "made" them in the first place. However, not having done that, I can't. Now if they pull crap that the PD was off, I'd say, then go to the place that made your glasses as it's them that should use their PD to make glasses. If they are relying soley on my Measurement then that's their fault, not mine. Burden is on them to prove my PD was wrong and even then, I still didn't make them, thus will not take accountability for paying for the work if I didn't do it. I'm not liable for something I didn't make, the one who made it is liable for insuring the specifications are accurate. If NAPA tells me the color white on my car is A213 and it's not and I go buy online, the burden is still on me, not NAPA. I made that choice not them. That's how I see it and will see it unless a small claims court case is going to be filed against me and prove otherwise. Even then I still won't change my opinion. Besides, I can't see messing up a PD.