Hoya Wide testimonials

[mike]

Thanks to Bob Rihl in Augusta, someone has mentioned the success in fitting the new Hoya Wide progressive. While Hoya is brand new to the US market, their posture in the world wide ophthalmic market is well known. The Hoya Wide design offers a wider reading and intermediate area than any PAL and the minimum fitting height is a legitimate 18mm. The availability in CR39, 1.60 and the new 1.71 should be attractive to every optician who wants to satisfy the needs of their presbyopic customers. Would like to hear some of your comments.

[Clive Noble]

I've already mentioned recently somewhere on the board how pleased we are with Hoya Wide.

Actually we were 'pushed' into using it as one of our suppliers was taken over by Hoya, and the Varilux range was dropped quite suddenly, but this 1.71 material is quite something, the AntiReflex is included in the price and it has a great 'feel' to it.

We are still using Panamic, which is fitted similarly to the Wide, and between the two brands all the options of materials and indices are available.(apart from Transition3 in CR39 1.5)

[karen]

For those of you who are skeptical about the Wide let me pass on some technical stuff that impressed me. There was recently some testing done by a well known testing lab on the Wide versus most of the other major players in the field. They measured things like corridor width and length, the amount of distortion in the corridor, the amount of reading RX actually present in the lens, It very defintely is wider in the intermediate and near and coincidentally has some of the least distortion in the corridor and at near. Above the 180 it had less unwanted astigmatism.
Yes, I do work for the newly formed Hoya Labs of America but having little or no knowledge of this lens when this all started I was just a skeptical of it as most everybody else. Between the results of these tests and the extremely favorable feedback I am getting from the field I feel confident that this lens is going to make a huge dent in the competition- as it has done everywhere else in the rest of the world

[Jeff Trail]

Karen,


I like the Hoya as well but the thing that torks me is that they are playing "politics"
If you were or are a "varilux" lab then you can't get Hoya's unless you want cut off from varilux... and vice versa...

That and Hoya is going about it the same "stab you in the back" way Varilux did and they are "setting" a price you HAVE to sell at wholesale.. well they say "recomend" but I know a few Hoya distributers it "recomend" means you BETTER do it :)
Last but not least they are not opening up to the whole wholesale market but keeping it to only letting certian labs do it..
I don't know if any of you guys (opticians) know it but to be a Varilux lab , which I was going to be , till they told me I had to SHOW them my books and give them my account names etc. etc... THAT'S BS..
I am only a medium sized lab so HOya won't even talk to me
I just see it as one more way that they (big boys, Essilor, Hoya) is squeezing us out of the market place..Hoya even started into the market with the plan to even skip us wholesalers completly, they have a large molding plant up in Ohio and came in with the idea that they could just put "tracer" units in offices but found out that wasn't going to work that well :)
I still like the lens but hate the company. You guys that are figuring "oh he's just sour grapes because he can't get em'" .. let me tell you you guys are the ones PAYING more for the blanks because it is a closed market.. same as with Varilux...
You figure it cost that much more to produce those two brands then any of the others in compariable materials?.. nope.. It costs no more to produce a Natural then a Comfort but in my area (wholesale) the Natural goes for around $XX and the Comfort is $XX...
Still, even though the thread was started as a self serving post by someone that handles the Hoya it is a good design.. just wish they left the politics to the politicians ..

Jeff"Hoya if you hate "Essilor" so much then give us ALL a chance" Trail :)

[Jim Seebach]

Hi Ya'll;

We have been using the Hoya Wide for a couple months and have yet to have a non adapt. I should probably knock on wood. I have not seen a Hoya rep and no one has tried to tell me how much to sell the lens for. I think Varilux made a big mistake pulling their lenses out of the Hoya labs. It looks to me like they are turning out to be big losers with the success everyone seems to be having with the other premium lenses.

Jim Seebach

[Texas Ranger]

Jeff, So far as Natural being $xx and Varilux being $ xx, which "design" are we talking here? Are we talking edged or uncut? Are we talking paying net xx or at a discount?, net xx? None of the labs my market are selling say a Comfort uncut for $xx, they probably wish they could! So what's the reasoning about having a major vendor seeing "the books"? When a retailer leases space, he generally pays an over ride over base sales, so the landlord can look at the books , my account, banker and probably anyone else that wanted to, can. It's a boundry issue. But every vendor has some conditions about the business stability of their distributors, since you function in a loose "partnership". Do you handle Rodenstock Life2 or Zeiss Gradal TOP lenses? Do they have conditions of being a distributor lab? Look, I am a big Varilux fan, 85% of our presbyopes wear them, and we've been fitting them sine '78. The new Panamic's Global design management concept is unique and allows for better equilibrium wearing the lens. I guess we'll stick with what brung us! Al.

[Bob Rihl]

I just had a lady pick her new Hoya Wides up an hour ago, fitted 15 High,in a Neostyle College 114 she had gotten from me a few years ago in S.V. Her insurance forced her to go to a chain in the mall. They sold her a larger frame claiming it "couldn't be done" in the little Neostyle. I bumped the add +0.50, fit them 15 High and she claims she has a much wider field of near vision with the Hoya Wides fit low than with whatever they sold her at the mall fit high, plus no edge distortion, which had been bothering her with the mall lenses. So I offered to dye them into sunglasses for her. But guess what? Some slimey looking AR coat plus polycarb, so she's on her way over there to get her money back. She feels cheated. I've had a lot of returns on the Panamic, but every one was a polycarb, and my customers aren't used to polycarb. I've done OK with the 1.6 Panamic, but it's sort of ridiculous to put somebody with one or two diopters in a mucho expensive lens like that. Varilux goofed when they didn't come out with the Panamic in CR-39 first. I'll probably never use it now anyhow, because I'll betcha it'll be more expensive than the Hoya, and not quite as good. The Hoya Wide I can get in any material imaginable. I'm wearing a pair of 1.71s myself in a little Aspex PC 162 also fit 15 High and have more reading area than my 1.6 Panamics in another frame fit 18 High. I tried the Panamic in Polycarb, with Crizal, but colours appeared faded and my reading wasn't so good. I don't think you can fit those Panamics 18 High without bumping the add, although they say you can. I guess we'll never know who kicked who's product out of their lab first, but I kinda think Essilor threw the first ball. Maybe it was mutual. I wish they both could get along and cooperate like the old B&L and AO labs used to. If you were ordering a couple of jobs from the AO lab, but wanted G-15s on one, they'd get the blanks from B&L. If you were ordering fom a B&L lab and wanted Cosmetan from AO, they'd get it. If you wanted Univis Sentinels and called it into a B&L OR AO lab, they'd get it.....FAST TOO. And I cry every time I think about that Univis "Specials" lab down at Vision Park, Ft. Lauderdale. All you had to do was draw them a picture of a lens and they'd make it. If they were still in operation, I'll betcha THEY could figure out how to make a progressing prism, invisible slab-off progressive lens, like I've been harping about for 20 years.

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[Jeff Trail]

[quote]Originally posted by Al:
Jeff, So far as Natural being $xx and Varilux being $ xx, which "design" are we talking here? Are we talking edged or uncut? Are we talking paying net xx or at a discount?, net xx? None of the labs my market are selling say a Comfort uncut for $xx, they probably wish they could/QUOTE] <<
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Thats what they are gettting here in FL for the comfort..$xx!!... but another lab on the west coast of FL. is selling them for $xx now...and yes its "uncut".. the point is that when you have a "closed" market, like Varilux had then you "inflate" the prices..didn't you notice you can get a Comfort cheaper now then you could 5 years ago? ..same labs, same lens.. it's because of an "open" market now.. Same could apply to the Hoya.. Thats the whole point if you limit it then you control it, ask those guys spending $2.25 or more for a gallon for gas in the mid west :) about how control means "$$$"


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So what's the reasoning about having a major vendor seeing "the books"? When a retailer leases space, he generally pays an over ride over base sales, so the landlord can look at the books , my account, banker and probably anyone else that [/i]

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My banker? sure I don't have a problem..my accountant?..HE BETTER he keeps them for me :) ... but my landlord?..HE#$ NO.. I have had two retail stores as well as the wholesale lab and I REFUSED to let them see my books and they still gave me a lease..


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SNIP>>>

It's a boundry issue. But every vendor has some conditions about the business stability of their distributors, since you function in a loose "partnership". Do you handle Rodenstock Life2 or Zeiss Gradal TOP lenses?.[/i]

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I sell Zeiss , but I sure am not going to give MY client list to any company (ESPECIALLY) one that is in the SAME business I am in (Essilor Labs, Hoya Labs) and if they wanted to know anything about me I'm listed with Dunn&Brad as well as HAVE accounts with SILOR and about every other lens company out there so (in the Varilux case)if they were interested they could pull up my monthly balance with ESSILOR and see I pay that $10 or so thousand bill I GET from them every month gets paid on time.... not counting the other 5 or so vendors I deal with (tack on another 10 to 15 th. in lens bill)
It's just not the books ($$) they want to KNOW who you are selling to as well.. would you show your patient records to a compeitor? NO.
Do they do that stuff ? YES.. I had a Silor rep that was supposed to be working with me (the wholesale client) but as he was visiting my accounts telling them about "Silor" product he was telling them all about the ESSILOR LABS..thats supposed to be helping me out? .. I maybe a small lab and probably be put out of business by these guys but I sure am not going to hold my throat out and let them slit it . :)

Oh well I guess this was off of the subject of the thread, like I said I think the Hoya is a good design, I like the lens just not the politics. :)

Jeff "going going ...gone" Trail






[This message has been edited by Jeff Trail (edited 06-30-2000).]

[PBS]

I've been wearing a pair of the 1.7 Wides for about 3 months. There is a good near field, but I have blur off to the sides above the 180. I don't have to turn my head very far to see it either. I just got a new pair of Panamic 1.6 yesterday. It also has blur, but not as much. I should be recieving my Gradal Top's next week. I have a feeling the blur will be even less with Zeiss.

[Steve Machol]

PBS,

It's possible that the blur you're experiencing is at least partially the result of chromatic aberration. I'm curious - do you know the abbe value of the Hoya 1.7?

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Steve
OptiBoard Administrator

[karen]

.
Still, even though the thread was started as a self serving post by someone that handles the Hoya it is a good design.. just wish they left the politics to the politicians ..

Jeff"Hoya if you hate "Essilor" so much then give us ALL a chance" Trail :)[/I][/QUOTE]

Jeff, I am confused...does the person who started this thread work for Hoya? Admitedly I did jump in and give my two cents but didn't start it. I do agree that the politics of all this is frustrating. Suffice it to say that it is even more interesting to be right smack in the middle of it. I have to say that sometimes all this corporate stuff is a little too much for me. It was easier when we had just ourselves to answer to.

P.S Steve- the abbe value of the 1.71 is 36

[Jeff Trail]

Karen,

Check out Mike's profile.. "consultant" and "ophthalmic products".. that and tooting the horn for one certian brand..hmm.. think maybe one of his "products" happens to be HOYA :)
Oh I like the design.. but you figure, besides the ORI group (which Hoya bought) consists of 10 labs .. and they only have 18 other labs getting access to it then it's all a political game.
Then you have Essilor on the other side of the field with it's group of wholesale labs it owns.. taking away any of those OSI labs Varilux lens as well as Crizal...everybody else is stuck in the middle..
Me? .. I'm just about fed up with the whole mess of wholesale, I get calls for "why don't you carry this brand".. or "this brand" .. I could sell a ton of those.. then you drop $10 or $15 grand putting in the stock, which alot of the companies are making you do now to carry a certian line.. then the lens gets ignored for the new flavor of the day and I'm stuck with all those lens
You figure between ORI (Hoya's labs) and ELoA (essilor's labs) they control what? Probably close to 40% of the TOTAL wholesale market..What I figure is when you own the companies that distribute as well as produce, what keeps you from controlling the pricing ?
I have an advantage in that I have a group of OD's that have been trying to buy me out for a while and I can always go back into retail after my non compete runs out in three years from the two retail stores I did sell, so either way I'm not really worried..
The ones that SHOULD be worried is the independant opticians.. you can only try to pass along the higher cost of lens so far to the patient and still stay compeitive to places like WalMart or Lenscrafter or any of the rest... I know that right now they have started increasing the costs of lens to me and I have not raised my prices in close to 4 years..
As for any of you guys thinking.." oh he is just being a baby" :) .. I don't blame Essilor or even Hoya.. in fact it is a rather shrewd business deal the way they are doing it and if I had the money they did I'm sure I would have done the same thing..
I just hate to see it go back to the days when B&L had control of the market(wholesale)
Oh well it makes for interesting debates, I'll just tag along for the ride and then decide which way the wind will take me..shoot I like to tinker, maybe I'll get out of optics and go back to school, get a pocket protector and take up computer programming :)

Jeff"C++, or JAVA hmm? .." Trail

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by Jeff Trail:
[I]Check out Mike's profile.. "consultant" and "ophthalmic products".. that and tooting the horn for one certian brand..hmm.. think maybe one of his "products" happens to be HOYA :)

Well I hope Jeff is wrong about this. I'd hate to think that someone was misusing OptiBoard in this way.

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Steve
OptiBoard Administrator

[This message has been edited by Steve Machol (edited 07-02-2000).]

[LensLdy]

To those of you who question the bona fides--that means credentials--of Mike because he might be a lens consultant for a certain manufacturer, may I remind you of the employer of the person who manages this web site? Let's face it, we all have our own personal preferences as far as lenses and frames are concerned. I, for one, Have not taken even a sip of the "Varilux Kool-aid". Just my opinion, I could be wrong...

[Steve Machol]

Lensldy,

I have never made a secret of my association with Sola Optical. In fact, it's even in the 'faq' for this site (and has been for many years.) I have also never left messages on OptiBoard trying to get information for my employer, and I've never made comments on Sola or competitive products without fully disclosing who I am. I've always been scrupulously honest and forthright in all my activities, and I take my responsibilites to the members of OptiBoard very seriously.

The 'faq' clearly states that a person should disclose any potential conflicts of interest when posting a message. Therefore if Mike is employed by Hoya, then he should have stated so in his message. If not, then there's no problem.

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Steve
OptiBoard Administrator

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by LensLdy:
I, for one, Have not taken even a sip of the "Varilux Kool-aid". Just my opinion, I could be wrong...

Is this the Ken Kesey variety or the Jim Jones one? :D

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Steve
OptiBoard Administrator

[LensLdy]

Steve, forgive me if you think I questioned your integrity--that wasn't my intent. I merely wanted to state that we all have preferences and affiliations in our professional life that influence the choices we make.

BTW--Mike is NOT an employee of Hoya and i know this because I am an employee. However, 1 of the lenses he has to offer in his bag of tricks is the Hoya lens, so that gives him the knowledge to be able to discuss the lens authoritatively.

I agree with you that folks should put their cards on the table if they work for a specific manufacturer--where we get our paycheck does color our perceptions, especially when we talk about them publically.

P.S.--despite the fact that I don't like this new format, I DO like the spell check aspect of it--makes life a lot easier!

[Steve Machol]

Thanks for the reply LensLdy. It's obvious we all work for someone and have our own preferences. However, I do expect that when someone comments on a product or company they have a direct financial interest in, they clearly identify this relationship. This policy has been in place since I started this Board 5 years ago and I think it's served the community well.

And finally, I think you'll end up liking the new Board once you get the hang of it. I've only had one other person tell me they didn't like it at first, but they came around after a while. Besides as you've noted - the spell check is pretty cool!

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Steve
OptiBoard Administrator

[Karenrp1956]

I hope I get some response to this:


This past year, Essilor had a contest with selling crizal lens. I believe it was around this time last year. We have never received any of the monies that were promised to us......so I want to know, with all of the expertees in this website, is there anything better than the Crizal Alize with clear guard? I am listening.:o

[For-Life]

I hope I get some response to this:


This past year, Essilor had a contest with selling crizal lens. I believe it was around this time last year. We have never received any of the monies that were promised to us......so I want to know, with all of the expertees in this website, is there anything better than the Crizal Alize with clear guard? I am listening.:o

it is anti-static. That is a benefit. It means less junk being drawn to the lenses. That should lead to less scratches.

Is it a huge thing? No. But there is no price difference, so it is a bonus without any extra resources.

[Happylady]

The Hoya Wide is being talked about like it is a new lens, but I wore a pair five years ago. It seems to be a nice lens. I used a pair today for a drill mount in Trivex.

Is the Hoya Wide being talked about here any different then the Hoya Wide I wore several years ago?

[optigrrl]

Are you guys talking about the Hoya Wide or the Hoya GP? Two different designs...

[RT]

Why are we bringing up a 6 year old thread?