Do you pass on the savings on budget PAL's?

[ilanh]

Currently we only have one set price for PALs and then add on standard extras for poly, transitions, polarized etc. We make a big point of completely guaranteeing that a patient will adapt and be happy with them. However, we do not necessarily pass on the savings if we use a budget PAL. For example, we charge the same for physio 360 as we do for Image (even though our costs are different). Sometimes we will even go with a budget lens such as Concord (which is not warrantied by its lab)but we will self-warranty it fully. If the patient isn't thrilled with Concord, we will redo it at no charge even if we had to pay. This has not been a problem since most patients do not seem to care if they've been fit with Concord or with Physio 360 as long as their vision is optimal.

[Golfnorth]

Currently we only have one set price for PALs and then add on standard extras for poly, transitions, polarized etc. We make a big point of completely guaranteeing that a patient will adapt and be happy with them. However, we do not necessarily pass on the savings if we use a budget PAL. For example, we charge the same for physio 360 as we do for Image (even though our costs are different). Sometimes we will even go with a budget lens such as Concord (which is not warrantied by its lab)but we will self-warranty it fully. If the patient isn't thrilled with Concord, we will redo it at no charge even if we had to pay. This has not been a problem since most patients do not seem to care if they've been fit with Concord or with Physio 360 as long as their vision is optimal.

We use a pricing structure for our PAL's based on their aquisition cost.
We find that you can give customers a choice of lenses based on their needs, wants and budget.
We point out the differences between the different PAL's and their respective retail prices and let the customer decide. We use a good/better and best scenario as to keep the process simple.

Regards,
Golfnorth

[jnelson.sve]

We use the same type price system. Good, better, best to relate to various PAL designs. Then off of each of those, we give options for materials/Transitions/etc.

[Happylady]

We charge more for more expensive progressives. We have 4 price points and then upgrade based on material.

[braheem24]

I setup my price list with different price points based on performance NOT price.

The fact that we get an excellent performance lens for the same price as our house PAL does not mean we should give it away.

Jus like you know which medications are a bunch of hot air when the rep comes along asking you to push it on the patient, you should also know the frames and lenses that are being sold to you based on name recognition in the industry and perceived higher quality.

Always sell based on performance and features and you wont go wrong, dont make the mistake of buying overpriced trash and forcing the patient to pay for your optician's buying mistakes.

Good Luck,
Ibrahim

[chip anderson]

We charge by our costs, we do not sell cheap lenses at all But we charge a lot more for Hoya in 174 than we do for comfort.
Charging premium prices for cheap lenses smells like price gouging to me.

When you tell a patient he is getting the best available, charge for the best available, it seems highly unethical to supply the lowest priced product and charge the same amount you would for a premium product.

Now if I am able to purchase a product at a discount, I do not pass the savings on to the customer unless I am having a slow period and trying to have a sale. I mark up list price, not price paid. But then I am not doing and cost + dispensing fee for a government or other entity.

However those of you that "have more ethics in thier little toe" are far more qualified to set your own prices.

Chip

[MarcE]

We also do all the same price. Here are the PALs we dispense mostly.
Image
Ovation
Accolade
House brand
Minuo
Definity

Patient gets what we think is the best, pays for material upgrades. I feel like we should update the pricing. However my hesitation is based on return vs. simplicity. I think it all averages out in the end. On average, for every Image we dispense, we also dispense a Definity. The average of these lens costs is about the same as an Accolade.
If I go to a Good/better/best price structure, am I increasing my net? Probably not. Am I increasing the complexity for the frame stylist and the patient? Yes. Am I offering the patient a more customized price vs performance lens design? Probably, but what if they pick wrong?

However I find that the optical customer is easily petrified by all the choices - both frame and lenses. Much of our job (as I see it) is to hack through the choices and only offer 2 recommendations. It makes the experience less mentally exhausting.
If you think that I am calling my customers stupid, I'm not. Picking out eyeglasses is not a fun experience for most people, therefore they put it off. Not good for business.
Also, I don't want the one presenting lenses to hesitate when quoting a price. Or to have to answer the question "how much are lenses", with a barage of retalitory questions.

So, for better or worse, you know my thoughts. But with the advancement of lenses, we need to reevaluate our system. Our patients need to know about the latest and best, and I can't just price them into our normal structure with the Ovation, Accolade and Image.

[cocoisland58]

since most patients do not seem to care if they've been fit with Concord or with Physio 360 as long as their vision is optimal.

I don't even know what the Concord is but if it performs as optimally as you say it does and you are making a large profit using it, why are you offering anything else? You could then simplify even more than you already have.

We offer one "generic" progressive (Image) and the Varilux lineup for everything else. The Image performs just fine in many situations but we like to give the customer the option of "choosing better technology" and They understand that technology costs more. The customer also likes the "option" of going cheaper. They get more satisfaction out of their purchases when they are allowed to make buying decisions.

[karen]

Dr H, folks in your neighborhood are getting a pretty penny for the 360, are you competitively priced?? And most of my accounts charge less for the Image than the 360, they have at least 2 pricing tiers for PAL's


I was going to post some pricing examples but I can't do that in this forum, right??

[Johns]

I was going to post some pricing examples but I can't do that in this forum, right??

I was going to mention what a great topic this would be for the "invisible" forum, but figured it would come out on it's own. There is an excellent, ongoing thread in that forum that you'll find worth the price of admission.

[Fezz]

I was going to post some pricing examples but I can't do that in this forum, right??

Karen,
Below are the posting guidelines:

Optiboard is a public discussion forum. We are composed of eyecare professionals and the consuming public. In this regard, it is inappropriate to publish wholesale prices, or other propriatary information which might compromise the relationship between professionals and consumers. If you have questions of this nature, or information to provide, please use the Private Message system to ask the question or to diseminate the information. Posts containing pricing information deemed inappropriate, will be removed.



It mentions wholesale pricing. I would assume a VAGUE presentation of retail pricing would be appropriate. Maybe the moderators could chime in as well.

[Diane]

Everyone has choices. These choices should be based on performance not the bottom line for the ECP. Pricing every lens the same may seem simple, and in a perfect world, maybe the ECP would steer the patient based on what would be best, not how it affects their bottom line, but I don't see that happening.

Let's look at this scenario. Owner/Manager..."Let me think...patient doesn't know the difference. If I try the cheaper lens and they don't complain, then all is right with the world and I make more money." How do you decide who gets the premium lens and who gets the cheaper lens? The problem is multifold. First of all, every patient won't let you know they have difficulty, they just go somewhere else. Second of all, every lens is NOT the same. A premium lens performs for the majority of people significantly better than a less expensive lens. I know, there are some out there that may have fewer challenging visual tasks, and could adapt to most of them. Third, people have a right to choices based on performance and make their own decision based on value and what it costs.

Fourth, fifth, etc...ethics will ultimately be compromised. Business decisions based on bottom line can impact the patient's vision whether you admit it or not. If the owner sets the price of everything the same, then I want Premium Filet Mignon...not chopped ground beef.

Diane

[Uncle Fester]

Ilahn- If VSP sets up different price structures why wouldn't you? I think it's only fair. We also charge extra as the powers go over 4 sphere or 2 cyl.

PM your fax and I'll show you how we've set it up if you'd like.

Kind regards

[HarryChiling]

We use a price structure of House and Lab supplied, the house brands ar elenses we get blanks for and are the best in terms of COG's and yes we pass that on, then their are lab supplied, if the lens is lab supplied we price it higher, but don't differentiate between lens brands although we tend to aoid certain manufacturers brands. Then if a patient asks for a FF or customized progressive we price it as a specialty and have purposely left it off our price list so that we can price accordingly and we don't discount or use those prodcuts willy nilly as they take too long to get and often cost too much to play the return or remake game with. Often times we try to determine if they have been seen by the doctor they have a script from before and if they have been satisfied with those scripts, if not we recommend they see our doctor before ordering since they are specialty. Most people will either see our doctor or order something else.

[karen]

Amen Diane!!!!!!

[HarryChiling]

A premium lens performs for the majority of people significantly better than a less expensive lens.

Please elaborate on that, or stop perpetuateing that misconception. Premium and less expensive are not comparable traits.

[For-Life]

Hmm, I do not like the idea of one price for all. I assume you would be looking at an average for all included. So someone getting the Definity would get a real bargain and someone getting the Super Noline would be getting not as good treatment.

The question then is, why not just offer the best if the price is the same? If the answer is to gain a better mark up and then why not just offer the worst?

I think a mark up based on a percentage increase is a fair way to do it. With the higher priced items you may curve that percent to help keep the price in line. Maybe a flat dollar increase is good too. So the cost of each plus $100 or $1000 or $1 (to throw people off who think I am posting real prices). So you know when you sell a PAL you will always make $abc.

[Diane]

Please elaborate on that, or stop perpetuateing that misconception. Premium and less expensive are not comparable traits.

Ouch... Change the words as you see fit. I won't complain. Perhaps Premium and non premium should be used???

Diane

[HarryChiling]

Ouch... Change the words as you see fit. I won't complain. Perhaps Premium and non premium should be used???

Diane

Sorry I apoligize for that may have come off a bit more harsh then I intended, but I hear that comparison a lot. I would love to see a more concrete definition of premium for progressive lenses, especially since it's a term thrown aorund a lot in our industry. What defines premium? Is it cost? Is it the factors used in determining the progressives characteristics? Is it the wide range of availability in material and options? Is it the wide range of base curves? I think this may need a new thread of it's own to be honest with you.

[Jubilee]

I believe what the idea is that even though the Shamir Creation is cheaper than the Physio 360, it doesn't mean that it is any less of a "premium" lens or is somehow any less of quality...

Or in many cases (such as my own office) we price the Image, Creation and the Definity the same, though there are obvious jumps in our wholesale price. In our case, we are trying to keep things simple. Typically we don't use the Image except when dealing with certain 3rd party plans and the patient wants the "standard pal" or in cases where I need a material such as trivex that isn't offered by the others.

I will admit that I am starting to notice the difference in pricing where I use more variety of lenses than our other office that uses primarily Definity. The difference in cost over the course of the year adds up. However, as I told the owner, it costs less to use the right thing to begin with even if the initial investment is higher, than to remake and have to do things a second. Even with a "generous" remake policy from the lab, the time it takes for us to trouble shoot, reorder and the amount of patient confidence lost due to these issues cost us more in the long run.

[HarryChiling]

I will admit that I am starting to notice the difference in pricing where I use more variety of lenses than our other office that uses primarily Definity. The difference in cost over the course of the year adds up. However, as I told the owner, it costs less to use the right thing to begin with even if the initial investment is higher, than to remake and have to do things a second. Even with a "generous" remake policy from the lab, the time it takes for us to trouble shoot, reorder and the amount of patient confidence lost due to these issues cost us more in the long run.

I have switched Definity patients over to Shore Balance at 1/4 the price and have had patients that were extremely happy. Which goes to show you the right thing does not equate to higher cost. These phrases are ones that are perpetuated and most people don't realize the nuances in them, for instance your statement hints at the higher priced lens being the right one. I am amazed at how many variations of this same philosophy I hear. The right lens is the one with the correct design characteristics that match the patients visual needs. So if a manufacturer spends tons of money on R and D to create a lens for a couch patato, the active person may hate that lens no matter how much it costs. Also I have seen a few instances recently where the patient has had some wicked DPD/NPD, the inset of some of these progressives can be a large factor in the adaption.

[MarcE]

Fourth, fifth, etc...ethics will ultimately be compromised. Business decisions based on bottom line can impact the patient's vision whether you admit it or not. If the owner sets the price of everything the same, then I want Premium Filet Mignon...not chopped ground beef.

Diane

I don't think accusing someone of compromising ethics is right. Do we question the ethics of retail surfacing labs that are more likely to dispense what they have instead of what is "best for the patient"? The patient says NOW is "best" for me. The problem with dispensing what is "best for the patient", is that we don't know what is best. We may know what has worked OK or well.

Seems like every time I call my wholesale lab for an opinion on a lens, the answer is always "Physio". Is that the best lens for everyone? Even the person that wants to pay only $100? Or is it that the wholesale labs are contractually obligated to recommend a Varilux lens first? Is that ethical?

And BTW, business decisions should ALWAYS be based on the bottom line. That is why we are in business. Many in this industry seem to forget that. Low COG are good for the bottom line. A highly satisfied patient is good for the bottom line.

My wholesale price list is a 10 x 35 matrix, then you flip it over for more choices in polarized and photochromic. I have to simplify it for the patient. When is it "ethical" to stop the simplification. My choice was at one price. Others stop at 3 or 4 or 6 prices. It's not a choice of ethics. It's just a choice.

[HarryChiling]

And BTW, business decisions should ALWAYS be based on the bottom line. That is why we are in business. Many in this industry seem to forget that. Low COG are good for the bottom line. A highly satisfied patient is good for the bottom line.

Well put, if our business doesn't thrive then we are no good to the patient. It is a rule that as a business you have to make money. There are certain products that many of our offices don't offer because of the business consequences.

Solder vs. Restyle (Re-edge)
RGP polishng inhouse vs. sending out
Soft lens vs. RGP

In many cases the decisions in these cases are based on whats good for the business not what's immediately good for the patient. I say immediately because as the patients ECP if you are not doing what you need to do to make sure your business is here 5, 10, or 50 years from now you are wastign your patients time by provideing care that you wont be here to continue. I have had patients go to an office that all of a sudden folded and left patients that purchased these fancy coatings with 2 year warrantys hanging with nothing. I ultimately have to make a decision what's good for the patient and the business. In some cases there are certain brand lenses that hurt our business and they would ultimately provide the patient with expensive lenses that I won't be here to service tommorow so in those cases I try to get my labs to give me better pricing so that I can still offer the lens to my patients, but if they insist on offering the lenses at high prices then I can't use their lenses.

I ahve also suggested in the past that adaption studies have a price component, becuase maybe every one here may be sellign eyewear to the wealthiest of americans, but last I checke the majority isn't wealthy and I try to cater to the majority. I have patient non adapts to price, yet no one has addressed thi issue or tried to quantify it.

[Jubilee]

I have switched Definity patients over to Shore Balance at 1/4 the price and have had patients that were extremely happy. Which goes to show you the right thing does not equate to higher cost. These phrases are ones that are perpetuated and most people don't realize the nuances in them, for instance your statement hints at the higher priced lens being the right one. I am amazed at how many variations of this same philosophy I hear. The right lens is the one with the correct design characteristics that match the patients visual needs. So if a manufacturer spends tons of money on R and D to create a lens for a couch patato, the active person may hate that lens no matter how much it costs. Also I have seen a few instances recently where the patient has had some wicked DPD/NPD, the inset of some of these progressives can be a large factor in the adaption.

Let me explain.. Harry Believe me I am on your side on this..Re-read the post prior to that "offensive" quote...

While the lower cost lens can be and often times is the best thing, sometimes the higher option can be better. I choose the best lens for the balance of my patient's and my business's needs. If they are not an extensive computer user, nor an avid golfer, etc looking for one lens to do it all, I will use a cheaper lens. However, sometimes we get patients who are very finicky about their vision, unhappy with whatever they were previous wearing and happy with their current definity, I will keep them in the lens that costs more, to avoid headaches and additional costs later. Just like sometimes I will use a slightly higher priced lab to order jobs from that I think will have issues (flaky patient who never is happy, or going against my recommendations) so that I have a more forgiving warranty.

What I meant, and maybe I didn't clarify it.. is that I use a variety of lenses and not just one. I choose what I think will work best for my patient's needs and not just fit them into a one lens fits most mold. Sometimes I use the Definity, but I also use Creation, Piccolo, Ellipse, Image, and some Kodak lenses based upon what the height, material, rx, options, and my patient's visual needs are.

In my previous post when I was talking about cost of goods, I meant it as in the other office's costs are higher cause they use the more expensive all the time through a higher cost lab. I use 2 labs regularly and I use a variety of lenses..and my costs are lower.

[HarryChiling]

Let me explain.. Harry Believe me I am on your side on this..Re-read the post prior to that "offensive" quote...

While the lower cost lens can be and often times is the best thing, sometimes the higher option can be better. I choose the best lens for the balance of my patient's and my business's needs. If they are not an extensive computer user, nor an avid golfer, etc looking for one lens to do it all, I will use a cheaper lens. However, sometimes we get patients who are very finicky about their vision, unhappy with whatever they were previous wearing and happy with their current definity, I will keep them in the lens that costs more, to avoid headaches and additional costs later. Just like sometimes I will use a slightly higher priced lab to order jobs from that I think will have issues (flaky patient who never is happy, or going against my recommendations) so that I have a more forgiving warranty.

What I meant, and maybe I didn't clarify it.. is that I use a variety of lenses and not just one. I choose what I think will work best for my patient's needs and not just fit them into a one lens fits most mold. Sometimes I use the Definity, but I also use Creation, Piccolo, Ellipse, Image, and some Kodak lenses based upon what the height, material, rx, options, and my patient's visual needs are.

In my previous post when I was talking about cost of goods, I meant it as in the other office's costs are higher cause they use the more expensive all the time through a higher cost lab. I use 2 labs regularly and I use a variety of lenses..and my costs are lower.

Got you, well that's all good stuff then carry on. :bbg: