Optician Mark Ups

[Excalibur]

"When you try to open the little guy's closet, be sure your own is empty first." Okay I just made that up but it works.

Interesting quote. Thanks.

Opticianry is dying a slow death because as a 'profession' it is not contributing very much new knowledge to science. How many optician studies are being funded conducted at the university level? Probably none.

Opticians should try and develop doctoral level programs so that they can train researchers to further their knowledge base. If they do not evolve and increase their knowledge base, they will slowly become extinct.

In the future, I see optician programs being rolled into optometric programs as technical assistant programs to allow for their survival.

[LandLord]

I am not allowed to advertise to anyone but my patients. Opticians and retailers can advertise in the media as much their pocketbook will allow.

If you believe this, you must be over 50. Have you opened the yellow pages recently?

Do you also follow the written regulation that no frames may be visible through the window of an optometrists office?

You must be the only OD left in Ontario who still follows these rules. FYI, they are no longer applicable or enforced.

[For-Life]

Interesting quote. Thanks.

Opticianry is dying a slow death because as a 'profession' it is not contributing very much new knowledge to science. How many optician studies are being funded conducted at the university level? Probably none.

Opticians should try and develop doctoral level programs so that they can train researchers to further their knowledge base. If they do not evolve and increase their knowledge base, they will slowly become extinct.

In the future, I see optician programs being rolled into optometric programs as technical assistant programs to allow for their survival.

Opticianry is doing very well in every other Province. It is not about being University educated, it is a trade. These places do not have the OD pricing model as used in Ontario (or do they have the same restrictive laws).

How many of your dispensers are University educated? I bet none. You said yourself that you would hire an OA because they are cheaper than Opticians. Funny, because it would be illegal for an Optician to do the same.

[Excalibur]

Opticianry is doing very well in every other Province. It is not about being University educated, it is a trade. These places do not have the OD pricing model as used in Ontario (or do they have the same restrictive laws).

How many of your dispensers are University educated? I bet none. You said yourself that you would hire an OA because they are cheaper than Opticians. Funny, because it would be illegal for an Optician to do the same.

Opticianry is a trade-- you are correct. And opticians do hire assistants all the time, although they may not be called that. There are retail assistants working in optical shops all the time.

[Excalibur]

If you believe this, you must be over 50. Have you opened the yellow pages recently?

Do you also follow the written regulation that no frames may be visible through the window of an optometrists office?

You must be the only OD left in Ontario who still follows these rules. FYI, they are no longer applicable or enforced.

Optometrists are not permitted to advertise their prices to the public. My frames are not visible through the windows, and there are many, many optometrists in Ontario who follow these rules.

[For-Life]

Opticianry is a trade-- you are correct. And opticians do hire assistants all the time, although they may not be called that. There are retail assistants working in optical shops all the time.

The assistants cannot dispense

[Excalibur]

The assistants cannot dispense

ooops... they do it at all the retails I've cold-called.

[For-Life]

ooops... they do it at all the retails I've cold-called.

Not the ones here. I got to Winnipeg and the Chains have usually two opticians, and are far more busier. Here, they have many. Because they have to have Opticians dispense. The assistants can show frames and fill in information, but not dispense.

[LandLord]

It depends on your definition of dispense. Legally, dispensing is a controlled act. Only portions of the act can be delegated. Interpreting the prescription, verifying the appliance, and counselling the patient cannot be delegated by anyone. The other aspects can. Pd's, heights, adjustments, etc.

[HarryChiling]

I would say stop argueing with this boob and let him self distruct in his rampage. He's obviously the bottom of the barrel when it comes to optometry and does not represent their profession as a whole. His outdated thinking and dim wit has nothing of value to contribute, I am putting him on my ignore-amous list.:D

[Excalibur]

I would say stop argueing with this boob and let him self distruct in his rampage. He's obviously the bottom of the barrel when it comes to optometry and does not represent their profession as a whole. His outdated thinking and dim wit has nothing of value to contribute, I am putting him on my ignore-amous list.:D

Thanks Harry-- they have been arguing and not debating!

Looks like they've lost the debate!

[LandLord]

Trying to debate with Excalibur is like arguing with teenagers or politicians. As soon as you prove them absurd, they move on to another ridiculous argument.

[Excalibur]

Trying to debate with Excalibur is like arguing with teenagers or politicians. As soon as you prove them absurd, they move on to another ridiculous argument.

And debating with you and several other of your merchant friends has been like like mudwrestling with swine, or trying to engage in a peeing contest with skunks. :p

Most opticians are good people who just want to earn a living. They want to dispense eyewear and help people see better. Don't blame your shortfalls on others. The biggest enemy they have is corporate opticianry rather than any other profession. You have no place trying to independently work up patients, and taking a minimalist approach to eye care. You must elevate your trade yourselves-- educate better, attract the best students, develop credible research programs across all of your schools, and standardize your licensing across the country to legitimize your trade. Don't look for other professionals to help you. Do it yourself.

So peace to you and your brethren! Happy Holidays!

[hcjilson]

Interesting quote. Thanks.

Opticianry is dying a slow death because as a 'profession' it is not contributing very much new knowledge to science. How many optician studies are being funded conducted at the university level? Probably none.

Opticians should try and develop doctoral level programs so that they can train researchers to further their knowledge base. If they do not evolve and increase their knowledge base, they will slowly become extinct.

In the future, I see optician programs being rolled into optometric programs as technical assistant programs to allow for their survival.

It's been a long time since pomposity has been as well defined as it is in this post. Excaliber does, however, make some valid points about education as being the key to the salvation of Opticianry. It is interesting to note that he places the future of Opticianry firmly under the thumb of Optometry.
I'd wager if you took what the ophthalmic manufacturers contribute out of the "funding" that is creating all this "new knowledge to science" given to us by Optometry, you would not have much money left. I might also inquire to specify what the "new knowledge to science" has been.

To get back to the point of thread, I was interested that Excaliber is only allowed the cost of materials plus a dispensing fee. I was wondering if the savings of belonging to a buying group are passed along to the patients, or are the materials billed out at their MSRP. And I would ask the same of lab fees passed on the the patient. I can see an average of 20% of billable materials going into the OD's pot from that alone, while we sit here and feel sorry for the poor OD's who can't charge what they want. I think its high time to call a spade a shovel and say that everyone is entitled to make a profit, and spectacles cost what they cost, no matter how you choose to describe it.
Pardon me for butting into this conversation .

[hcjilson]

And debating with you and several other of your merchant friends has been like like mudwrestling with swine, or trying to engage in a peeing contest with skunks. :p

Most opticians are good people who just want to earn a living. They want to dispense eyewear and help people see better. Don't blame your shortfalls on others. The biggest enemy they have is corporate opticianry rather than any other profession. You have no place trying to independently work up patients, and taking a minimalist approach to eye care. You must elevate your trade yourselves-- educate better, attract the best students, develop credible research programs across all of your schools, and standardize your licensing across the country to legitimize your trade. Don't look for other professionals to help you. Do it yourself.

So peace to you and your brethren! Happy Holidays!

You may not like this Excaliber but you are a merchant as well- get over it!

[tmorse]

Are you currently a sight tester? Is this the type of outdated knowledge you are being given in your courses? If so, this is not good!

This question was answered in another thead "Ontario Opticians Refracting" in Post #154, (12/05/2007), whereafter you added your own posts, #157 and #159, remember?:hammer:

[Excalibur]

It's been a long time since pomposity has been as well defined as it is in this post. Excaliber does, however, make some valid points about education as being the key to the salvation of Opticianry. It is interesting to note that he places the future of Opticianry firmly under the thumb of Optometry.
I'd wager if you took what the ophthalmic manufacturers contribute out of the "funding" that is creating all this "new knowledge to science" given to us by Optometry, you would not have much money left. I might also inquire to specify what the "new knowledge to science" has been.

To get back to the point of thread, I was interested that Excaliber is only allowed the cost of materials plus a dispensing fee. I was wondering if the savings of belonging to a buying group are passed along to the patients, or are the materials billed out at their MSRP. And I would ask the same of lab fees passed on the the patient. I can see an average of 20% of billable materials going into the OD's pot from that alone, while we sit here and feel sorry for the poor OD's who can't charge what they want. I think its high time to call a spade a shovel and say that everyone is entitled to make a profit, and spectacles cost what they cost, no matter how you choose to describe it.
Pardon me for butting into this conversation .

Don't confuse my frankness and candidness with pomposity. Please demonstrate any PhD level programs in any opticianry programs -- there aren't any. Optometry and ophthalmology churn out a ton of vision care research whereas opticianry unfortunately does nothing to contribute to scientific evolution in eye care. Since it's unlikely you read any eye care journals beyond a few industry trade magazines, I'm not surprised you are not aware of any aforementioned peer-reviewed clinical research.

[Excalibur]

You may not like this Excaliber but you are a merchant as well- get over it!

Aren't we all merchants at least one time in our lives?

Yes, we dispense eye wear to patients who choose to use our services. But, as you are well aware, we provide diagnostic and treatment services. We follow a fee guideline set by our professional association. Opticians, on the other hand, do not follow any professional fee guideline as they are not professionals but merchants that charge what they think the market will bear.

[For-Life]

Aren't we all merchants at least one time in our lives?

Yes, we dispense eye wear to patients who choose to use our services. But, as you are well aware, we provide diagnostic and treatment services. We follow a fee guideline set by our professional association. Opticians, on the other hand, do not follow any professional fee guideline as they are not professionals but merchants that charge what they think the market will bear.

Many people would argue that the difference between prescribed objects are blurred by suggested products in said relationship. Ie: If a doctor suggests AR, the patient may see that as a prescription.

[hcjilson]

Don't confuse my frankness and candidness with pomposity. Please demonstrate any PhD level programs in any opticianry programs -- there aren't any. Optometry and ophthalmology churn out a ton of vision care research whereas opticianry unfortunately does nothing to contribute to scientific evolution in eye care. Since it's unlikely you read any eye care journals beyond a few industry trade magazines, I'm not surprised you are not aware of any aforementioned peer-reviewed clinical research.

You have absolutely no idea of what I do or do not read, or what I am, or am not aware of. I don't confuse your frankness and candor with anything other than what it is. Its pompous with a capital P. If you wish to contiune to bait people, go to one of your other forums where it may be tolerated. If you are so well read, perhaps you should re-read the posting guidelines and pay a little closer attention this time and see if you can get into the spirit of what Optiboard is about. We prefer to build, not tear down.

[MarcE]

THis has nothing to do with opticianry, optometry, or sight-testing, or "frankness". You are just rude.

I don't do sight-testing and don't try to lobby for it - you are rude.

If you are really focused on ethics, maybe you shouldn't dispense at all. You could be writing scripts for unneeded specs just to make money? You are rude.

Since you disclose your costs, I'm sure that you are showing your discounts, right? Because anything less is not just unethical, it's lying. You're not lying are you? This question has been asked before and like a child, you haven't answered. I can only assume that is because you don't want to disclose the truth.

Why are you checking if retail outlets have Optician's doing the dispense? Your office doesn't. Legal or not, it's an unfair double standard. You are rude.

The cost of doing business is rolled up in optician mark-ups; rent, utilities, etc. Your cost of doing business is rolled up in your exam fees. It's not fair to compare. Why do you question the "ethics" of an optician that makes $50K/yr when you make 2-4 times that amount? And before you pull another bait-and-switch, I do not deny that you should make more money because the entry requirements for ODs is much higher.

Based on your comments, I highly doubt that you are an ethical player. You endorse too many double standards.

I told you in my previous post that you needed to apologize. You didn't. In fact, you made more comments that you need to apologize for. If you were my child, I would punish you. Because you need to learn that this type behavior does not serve you very well in adulthood. Since you place a high value on education and learning, I'm sure that you realize that it's possible to learn something from anyone: patients, old people, even non-doctoral level opticians. Study hard and continue to learn and to improve your "Emotional intelligence"

Congratulations, you have earned my first ever negative feedback.:(

When you apologize for being rude, I will give you a green star.

[MarcE]

BTW to all the Ontario opticians. I don't know alot about your laws. But it does sound like you have a legal case against the Ontario "optometry board" or college or whatever you call it.

A recommended fee schedule is price-fixing. No other way to look at it.

[hcjilson]

MarcE,
Perhaps price fixing is allowed in Canada where things are done a little differently than here. I only come into this forum on occasion, usually to wish my northern brethren a Happy Canada Day or Thanksgiving, but on this occasion I was intrigued by the title of the thread. I was somewhat dissappointed to see the direction it took when excaliber decided to head in another direction. I would not hold your breath waiting for an apology. Excaliber will be continuing his education soon. The next lesson may well be one of entomology, it's up to him.

[For-Life]

MarcE,
Perhaps price fixing is allowed in Canada where things are done a little differently than here. I only come into this forum on occasion, usually to wish my northern brethren a Happy Canada Day or Thanksgiving, but on this occasion I was intrigued by the title of the thread. I was somewhat dissappointed to see the direction it took when excaliber decided to head in another direction. I would not hold your breath waiting for an apology. Excaliber will be continuing his education soon. The next lesson may well be one of entomology, it's up to him.

Price fixing is not allowed in Canada, but for some reason this has been. I always felt there was a case there, but no one ever wanted to pursue it. It is one thing from our government that has just made me sick and disillusioned.

[hcjilson]

It's similar to the position of our government concerning monopolies. They are against the law and yet the cranberry industry is controlled by Ocean Spray which is a monopoly! During a question and answer portion of a meeting, I asked the president of Ocean Spray how his company was allowed to be a monopoly. "Great question" he replied,......"Next question!)

I think the only way to pursue the issue is to bring suit. Surely Canada has a conusmer protection divison or something of that nature.They would be the entity to bring it to a head.