Maui Jim Progressive

[AWTECH]

Digital Surfacing

Yes
I did describe a solution - not the only solution, but a viable one - it's up to Maui Jim to find the right one -- if they chose to go that path.

It is not simple to explain the many issues with wrap around digitally surfaced lens designs.

Having a lens design from any lens company for digial surfacing is like having the avionics for an FA 18 airplane, (used by the Navy Blue Angels). Having the avionics does not mean you can fly with the Blue Angels. Having the lens design software does not mean you can make a lens. Freeform lenses are not as simple as plug and play.

A big issue with wrap around sunwear and PALs is the location of the optical center compared to the geometric center.

[Fleming]

It is not simple to explain the many issues with wrap around digitally surfaced lens designs.

Having a lens design from any lens company for digial surfacing is like having the avionics for an FA 18 airplane, (used by the Navy Blue Angels). Having the avionics does not mean you can fly with the Blue Angels. Having the lens design software does not mean you can make a lens. Freeform lenses are not as simple as plug and play.

A big issue with wrap around sunwear and PALs is the location of the optical center compared to the geometric center.

Allen
The F/A-18(A or C) Hornet as well as the F/A-18(B or D) (two place pre show aircraft) used by the Blue Angles are usually the older blocks (versions), They are generally stripped of most of their avionics and armament simply because it is not needed to perform at air shows (all the aircraft needs beside excellent maintenance is a extraordinary pilot – not avionics as you say); in this form they are simply aerobatic high performance aircraft NOT attack/fighter/bombers that the designator refers to. What the consumer wants is an extraordinary high performance lens.
This thread was started with a simple rumor of Maui’s new lens. I never said making a quality freeform (maybe I shouldn’t use the word freeform – it has been overused I know) lens to satisfy the hi wrap Rx sunglass consumer was easy or simple – I just said it was a solution. I agree with you about soft ware/hard wear – no matter how good your equipment/ system is – it finally comes down to WHO uses it and how competent they are (design team down to dispensers -- the human factor). Maui Jim needs to determine what their solution will be - not me.. and the consumers will cast their vote on how good their solution is by buying it or not buying it..
I agree with you about optical center and geometric center. Sorry this was so long.
I also agree with hipoptical - Maui might feel more comfortable with something they are already familiar with.
Just to give you an idea of where my head is - I would prefer Maui make a hi wrap Rx bifocal for a lot of my Maui Jim patients (they need to read a navigation chart and see the dock, they don’t care about their instrument panel)

[Barry Santini]

Just to give you an idea of where my head is - I would prefer Maui make a hi wrap Rx bifocal for a lot of my Maui Jim patients (they need to read a navigation chart and see the dock, they don’t care about their instrument panel)

Oh gosh, yes! And please....PULEASE make that bifocal WITHOUT polarization (to see the LCD-based instrumentation).

Barry

[HarryChiling]

Oh gosh, yes! And please....PULEASE make that bifocal WITHOUT polarization (to see the LCD-based instrumentation).

Barry

Barry your the man, I can't tell you how many times I have saved a remake by asking them what they are using their suns for. Polarized isn't the best choice for everything.

[CaOpticalGoddess]

I have used the current PAL Maui uses with little success. But I have heard from my rep that they have been talking Shamir about a free form lens and that would be great. Their SV lens is out of this world.

[Craig]

What issues have you had with Maui Jim Rx?

I have used the current PAL Maui uses with little success. But I have heard from my rep that they have been talking Shamir about a free form lens and that would be great. Their SV lens is out of this world.

We use the progressive and have no problems; do you compensate for the Base Curve change?
If not the patient will not see with the comfort they should expect from a wrap sunglass.
Craig

[HarryChiling]

I will probably get killed for this, but here we go anyway.

IMO, Maui Jim has been in the dark with Rx wrap eyewear. They have never compensated their lenses for the effects of tilt, base, or vertex. I have ordered many a lens from Maui and in many other frames and if the lens is not compensated often the patient complains. Maui may be looking for a solution to this compensation issues and I believe that and the fact that they have a limited availability in Rx's right now is thereason why they are pursueing the change to FF. Plus they maret thmselves as a premium company and if they are to keep up with that market they are going to have to get with the times and offer compensated solutions.

[Craig]

I could not agree more!!

I will probably get killed for this, but here we go anyway.

IMO, Maui Jim has been in the dark with Rx wrap eyewear. They have never compensated their lenses for the effects of tilt, base, or vertex. I have ordered many a lens from Maui and in many other frames and if the lens is not compensated often the patient complains. Maui may be looking for a solution to this compensation issues and I believe that and the fact that they have a limited availability in Rx's right now is thereason why they are pursueing the change to FF. Plus they maret thmselves as a premium company and if they are to keep up with that market they are going to have to get with the times and offer compensated solutions.

I started with Maui Jim as they launched the RX program 3 years ago and told them the same thing. They did not feel the accounts would understand the modifications to the RX. I had many quality issues with them originally, but lately the service is EXCELLENT!!

We fax in an order that is already compensated by me, using an optiboard calculator, and it arrives in 3-4 days exactly as ordered. They have gotten the thickness on plus lenses, PD's, seg hts. and finish quality at a very high level. ;)
If they only compensated on there own, it would be a perfect program.

I know they are a few months away from releasing the new free from lens designed by Shamir.

Just order them compensated and let your patients enjoy the benefits of properly compensated optics.

By the way, Pech Optical will compensate RX's for you on any base curve modification. I order many 6 base lenses to match the frame curve and also compensate for the curve change. It works great and can't be done on most free form yet; changing the base curve and adding prism to compensate.
I actually send all the Maui Jims that Maui will not RX for us to Pech and they never have a problem making it work. Allen at Ice Tech can also do this work and compensates for all the curve changes.

Keep changing the world one pair of glasses at a time.

Craig

[bob_f_aboc]

We fax in an order that is already compensated by me, using an optiboard calculator, and it arrives in 3-4 days exactly as ordered.

Which calculator is it that you use? I am starting to sell more and more MJ's in PAL and getting comfort complaints.

This would help a lot.

Bob

[Barry Santini]

As I have mentioned in many other posts, I think most low-to moderate Myopes and hyperopes SHOULD NOT have their Rx'x *compensated*...unless it is fully known whether

1.the starting Rx represents full infinity correction
2. Any latent/unprescribed-for phorias (got to know this before adding wrap prism)
3. You (dispenser) can effectively *validate* a finished centration on a progressive for a frame wrap angle of 18 degress or more. THIS IS THE CORRIDOR KILLER!

The time for anecdotal stories of success and/or failure (including mine), I think, is over. We need to be MUCH more methodical about our approach to wrap eyewear, or we're gonna end up where we were with (atrocious) AR in the early 2000's.

Anyone?....Bueller?

Barry

[Craig]

Why are you against proper vision in an 8 base!

As I have mentioned in many other posts, I think most low-to moderate Myopes and hyperopes SHOULD NOT have their Rx'x *compensated*...unless it is fully known whether

1.the starting Rx represents full infinity correction
2. Any latent/unprescribed-for phorias (got to know this before adding wrap prism)
3. You (dispenser) can effectively *validate* a finished centration on a progressive for a frame wrap angle of 18 degress or more. THIS IS THE CORRIDOR KILLER!

The time for anecdotal stories of success and/or failure (including mine), I think, is over. We need to be MUCH more methodical about our approach to wrap eyewear, or we're gonna end up where we were with (atrocious) AR in the early 2000's.

Anyone?....Bueller?

Barry

We have 3 stores in Florida and do alot of 8 base wraps in any RX!!!!
We pride ourselves on offering the items most opticians tell them won't work. I was just working with a woman who was telling her optician she wanted wrap sunglasses for golf; she was told it cannot be done.
She just gave me a $1,000 order and next week she will go to play golf and show her freinds the what can be done and how much she loves the optics!
Please send me all the people who you think should not have the pleasure of wearing an 8 base sunglass. I will send you a nice finders fee and flowers.
Let's use this forum to build up new technology, not bring it back 15 years!
Craig :drop:

[Barry Santini]

Craig,

I'm *not* saying you/we should NOT do 8 BC wraps.

When they work...no other discussion is needed.

But, anecdotal success stories DO NOT, IMHO, help anyone who has has unresolvable wrap issues with certain clients.

The points I've made are valid. They were not meant to undermine the success anyone has had with wraps.

But, as with refractive surgery...the more that's done, the more problems we'll see. And word-of-mouth client complaints about wraps is the root cause of negative myth making.

FWIW

Barry

PS - Craig, I *will* refer to you any of my clients that move into your area!

[drk]

Good discussion.

I think we have discussed the problems with power changes and induced prism by wrapping a lens.

We have not discussed, as much, the increases in aberrations when going "off" best-curve design. I don't know how/if this can be reduced.

As to progressives, what exactly can they do?

• Compensate power and prism, surely
• Can they reduce unwanted aberration from going off corrected curve?
• Looking through a progressive corridor at an oblique angle sounds miserable. (Maybe Shamir knows this and that's why they use the Piccolo Attitute more than Genesis?) Digital surfacing can't help that, I don't think.
• Individualized design may be useful for no more complex a reason than trying to get everyone to a minimum crap level. I'm unconvinced that they can design a wrapped progressive that doesn't have big problems.

Allen? Harry?

[Barry Santini]

Individualized design may be useful for no more complex a reason than trying to get everyone to a minimum crap level. I'm unconvinced that they can design a wrapped progressive that doesn't have big problems.
Allen? Harry?

DRK:
wrap progressive design holds much promise if an iterated, free-form design is employed. I don't believe the minimum crap level will be anywear near what some presently-successful traditional progressives deliver.

The ultimate, of course, would be iterated, free-form *and* using both front and rear surfaces, such as Hoya ID and Definity attempt.

However, NONE of this matters until processes and procedures are standardized for measuring and vaildating MRPs on wrap eyewear.

FWIW

BARRY

[AWTECH]

Proper wrap design

Good discussion.

I think we have discussed the problems with power changes and induced prism by wrapping a lens.

We have not discussed, as much, the increases in aberrations when going "off" best-curve design. I don't know how/if this can be reduced.

As to progressives, what exactly can they do?

• Compensate power and prism, surely
• Can they reduce unwanted aberration from going off corrected curve?
• Looking through a progressive corridor at an oblique angle sounds miserable. (Maybe Shamir knows this and that's why they use the Piccolo Attitute more than Genesis?) Digital surfacing can't help that, I don't think.
• Individualized design may be useful for no more complex a reason than trying to get everyone to a minimum crap level. I'm unconvinced that they can design a wrapped progressive that doesn't have big problems.

Allen? Harry?

With a digitally surfaced lens you know the progressive design is based on the curve and position of wear of the lens; therefore the oblique angle would not be of a concern. As long as this is considered in the design. Remember the power of a prescription lens depends on managing light and if the light entry and exit are the same with two different designs the power and vision will be the same.

The problem, as you see it, is valid if you take a PAL that is designed to be worn flat in front of the patient and not at an angle of 24 degrees.