Maui Jim Progressive

[Craig]

As I have mentioned in many other posts, I think most low-to moderate Myopes and hyperopes SHOULD NOT have their Rx'x *compensated*...unless it is fully known whether

1.the starting Rx represents full infinity correction
2. Any latent/unprescribed-for phorias (got to know this before adding wrap prism)
3. You (dispenser) can effectively *validate* a finished centration on a progressive for a frame wrap angle of 18 degress or more. THIS IS THE CORRIDOR KILLER!

The time for anecdotal stories of success and/or failure (including mine), I think, is over. We need to be MUCH more methodical about our approach to wrap eyewear, or we're gonna end up where we were with (atrocious) AR in the early 2000's.

Anyone?....Bueller?

Barry

We have 3 stores in Florida and do alot of 8 base wraps in any RX!!!!
We pride ourselves on offering the items most opticians tell them won't work. I was just working with a woman who was telling her optician she wanted wrap sunglasses for golf; she was told it cannot be done.
She just gave me a $1,000 order and next week she will go to play golf and show her freinds the what can be done and how much she loves the optics!
Please send me all the people who you think should not have the pleasure of wearing an 8 base sunglass. I will send you a nice finders fee and flowers.
Let's use this forum to build up new technology, not bring it back 15 years!
Craig :drop:

[Barry Santini]

Craig,

I'm *not* saying you/we should NOT do 8 BC wraps.

When they work...no other discussion is needed.

But, anecdotal success stories DO NOT, IMHO, help anyone who has has unresolvable wrap issues with certain clients.

The points I've made are valid. They were not meant to undermine the success anyone has had with wraps.

But, as with refractive surgery...the more that's done, the more problems we'll see. And word-of-mouth client complaints about wraps is the root cause of negative myth making.

FWIW

Barry

PS - Craig, I *will* refer to you any of my clients that move into your area!

[drk]

Good discussion.

I think we have discussed the problems with power changes and induced prism by wrapping a lens.

We have not discussed, as much, the increases in aberrations when going "off" best-curve design. I don't know how/if this can be reduced.

As to progressives, what exactly can they do?

• Compensate power and prism, surely
• Can they reduce unwanted aberration from going off corrected curve?
• Looking through a progressive corridor at an oblique angle sounds miserable. (Maybe Shamir knows this and that's why they use the Piccolo Attitute more than Genesis?) Digital surfacing can't help that, I don't think.
• Individualized design may be useful for no more complex a reason than trying to get everyone to a minimum crap level. I'm unconvinced that they can design a wrapped progressive that doesn't have big problems.

Allen? Harry?

[Barry Santini]

Individualized design may be useful for no more complex a reason than trying to get everyone to a minimum crap level. I'm unconvinced that they can design a wrapped progressive that doesn't have big problems.
Allen? Harry?

DRK:
wrap progressive design holds much promise if an iterated, free-form design is employed. I don't believe the minimum crap level will be anywear near what some presently-successful traditional progressives deliver.

The ultimate, of course, would be iterated, free-form *and* using both front and rear surfaces, such as Hoya ID and Definity attempt.

However, NONE of this matters until processes and procedures are standardized for measuring and vaildating MRPs on wrap eyewear.

FWIW

BARRY

[AWTECH]

Good discussion.

I think we have discussed the problems with power changes and induced prism by wrapping a lens.

We have not discussed, as much, the increases in aberrations when going "off" best-curve design. I don't know how/if this can be reduced.

As to progressives, what exactly can they do?

• Compensate power and prism, surely
• Can they reduce unwanted aberration from going off corrected curve?
• Looking through a progressive corridor at an oblique angle sounds miserable. (Maybe Shamir knows this and that's why they use the Piccolo Attitute more than Genesis?) Digital surfacing can't help that, I don't think.
• Individualized design may be useful for no more complex a reason than trying to get everyone to a minimum crap level. I'm unconvinced that they can design a wrapped progressive that doesn't have big problems.

Allen? Harry?

With a digitally surfaced lens you know the progressive design is based on the curve and position of wear of the lens; therefore the oblique angle would not be of a concern. As long as this is considered in the design. Remember the power of a prescription lens depends on managing light and if the light entry and exit are the same with two different designs the power and vision will be the same.

The problem, as you see it, is valid if you take a PAL that is designed to be worn flat in front of the patient and not at an angle of 24 degrees.

[HarryChiling]

The Base in prism that's used does widen teh corridor back a bit towards normal, but as Barry mentions the tilt does have a narrowing effect on the corridor. It boils down to how bad does the patient want it more often than not. When I do wraps I tend to overemphasize the fact that these are compensated and are nto going to be perfect. I try my best to avoid offering progressives in wraps, but people do want them so what can we do but offer them. Like Barry has mentioned the Rx is often not fully corrected for infinity, and additional 1/8 usually will do the trick (before compensation), as for tilt the frame and lens tilt need to be figured out, not too difficult, but it does require someone to know what they are doing or use a lab that knows what they are doing. FF lenses could be better at reduceing some of the aberrations that are caused by tilting lenses, I am not convinced that anyone is really utilizing the technology to it's fullest capabilities yet, but one day. I might have to try Pech out for their wraps, I have started to tire of lenticular cuts with prism to reduce thickness and thought of trying FF wraps solutions to try and ease some of the burden from our in store lab as we are doing more and more wrap Rx's.

[Barry Santini]

It boils down to how bad does the patient want it more often than not.

Absolutely True! Motivation works wonders when the fashion is new and novel!

When I do wraps I tend to overemphasize the fact that these are compensated and are to going to be perfect.

Rather than "perfect", I prefer terms like "familiar"

Like Barry has mentioned the Rx is often not fully corrected for infinity, and additional 1/8 usually will do the trick (before compensation),

This is important...more than most think...

I am not convinced that anyone is really utilizing the technology to it's fullest capabilities yet, but one day.

Let's see what Maui Jim does with their free-form, iterated wraps.

Barry

FWIW

[drk]

My question is not necessarily "Can progressives be customized by the digitally surfaced process"which we all know to be true, but rather "What exactly would a progressive designer do in order to make looking though a corridor obliquely less impossible?".

It seems to me that if you're looking through a vertical slit of some width, say, 3mm, and if you tilt that slit, the effective horizontal aperture size goes down dramatically (and not to be too mathematical, probably linearly with angle of tilt...100% of 3 mm at 0 deg tilt, 0% at 90 degrees tilt, 25% at 22.5 deg tilt.) Probably, then, your corridor width is down to 75% with wrap. Now, how you gonna fix that?

You can't, I don't think. You can optimize corridor width at the expense of something else. The logical whipping boy would be near zone width in sunglasses. You wouldn't want to mess with the distance zone, nor would you want excessive astigmatism in these mongo-sized frames.

Opinions?

[HarryChiling]

My question is not necessarily "Can progressives be customized by the digitally surfaced process"which we all know to be true, but rather "What exactly would a progressive designer do in order to make looking though a corridor obliquely less impossible?".

It seems to me that if you're looking through a vertical slit of some width, say, 3mm, and if you tilt that slit, the effective horizontal aperture size goes down dramatically (and not to be too mathematical, probably linearly with angle of tilt...100% of 3 mm at 0 deg tilt, 0% at 90 degrees tilt, 25% at 22.5 deg tilt.) Probably, then, your corridor width is down to 75% with wrap. Now, how you gonna fix that?

You can't, I don't think. You can optimize corridor width at the expense of something else. The logical whipping boy would be near zone width in sunglasses. You wouldn't want to mess with the distance zone, nor would you want excessive astigmatism in these mongo-sized frames.

Opinions?

Drk,

It's funny you bring up the numbers on that, the percentage of change would be the tangent of the lens angle minus the apical angle of the compensated prism and your right this does effect the corridor as Barry has mentioned on numerous occasions. So on a 20^o tilt your looking at a reduction in corridor size of about 36%, that's huge. I have been trying to fit most of the wraps in shorter corridor lenses and I try my best to adjust the frame for as little wrap as possible, but if you get into the higher adds and couple that with a high degree of wrap, watch out cause that job will be a nightmare.

[AWTECH]

My question is not necessarily "Can progressives be customized by the digitally surfaced process"which we all know to be true, but rather "What exactly would a progressive designer do in order to make looking though a corridor obliquely less impossible?".

It seems to me that if you're looking through a vertical slit of some width, say, 3mm, and if you tilt that slit, the effective horizontal aperture size goes down dramatically (and not to be too mathematical, probably linearly with angle of tilt...100% of 3 mm at 0 deg tilt, 0% at 90 degrees tilt, 25% at 22.5 deg tilt.) Probably, then, your corridor width is down to 75% with wrap. Now, how you gonna fix that?

You can't, I don't think. You can optimize corridor width at the expense of something else. The logical whipping boy would be near zone width in sunglasses. You wouldn't want to mess with the distance zone, nor would you want excessive astigmatism in these mongo-sized frames.

Opinions?

You just hit all of the key important points for a wrap progressive design. This is what ICE-TECH Advanced Lens Technologies has focused on for years. THE DESIGN FOR WRAP LENSES

To achieve this I tell you some information. The width of the corridor is reduced without special calculations for the wrap.

The key to understanding what can be done is to consider that light must pass throught the lens and be managed by the surfaces to obtain the correct position of the rays exiting the material. With freeform this is possible.

One of the key elements to our digitally surfaced designs is that the corridor is approximately 30% wider throughout the range making it larger than any standard PAL to begin with, then we optimize this corridor for wrap designs based on each individual frame angle and shape.

[Happylady]

Hi all!

I just heard a rumor that Maui Jim are in contact with Shamir about a new progressive lens.

Has anyone else heard of this and if so, which lens would they use?

:hammer:

Just spoke to our Maui Jim rep today and she said that Younger is making a new free form progressive just for Maui Jim and she will find out more about it next month. I can't remember the name of it.

She suggested when fitting the Image in a Maui Jim that you lower the fitting height 2 mms from pupil center. She said she had two pairs made for her, one on center and one dropped and she strongly perfered the dropped one.

[HarryChiling]

I started with Maui Jim as they launched the RX program 3 years ago and told them the same thing. They did not feel the accounts would understand the modifications to the RX. I had many quality issues with them originally, but lately the service is EXCELLENT!!

We fax in an order that is already compensated by me, using an optiboard calculator, and it arrives in 3-4 days exactly as ordered. They have gotten the thickness on plus lenses, PD's, seg hts. and finish quality at a very high level. ;)
If they only compensated on there own, it would be a perfect program.

I know they are a few months away from releasing the new free from lens designed by Shamir.

Just order them compensated and let your patients enjoy the benefits of properly compensated optics.

By the way, Pech Optical will compensate RX's for you on any base curve modification. I order many 6 base lenses to match the frame curve and also compensate for the curve change. It works great and can't be done on most free form yet; changing the base curve and adding prism to compensate.
I actually send all the Maui Jims that Maui will not RX for us to Pech and they never have a problem making it work. Allen at Ice Tech can also do this work and compensates for all the curve changes.

Keep changing the world one pair of glasses at a time.

Craig

I have actually alked with a few people in their labs and have suggested that their new Rx form have a box to indicate that compensations have been performed on the lenses prior to being sent to them to avoid doubling the changes made. They seemed receptive and to be honst with you some of the calculators offered here are more sophisticate than the compensations being applied by some of the wrap solution providers currently out their, we are still in the wild west of wraps and it seems that more and more companies are bitting off more than they can chew with high wraps and not really knowing the consequences of tilting lenses, but it is a radically changing area in opticianry and at this point I would have to say that most solution providers are blowing so much smoke about their abilities to provide customized Rx's and compensations, most of what they are doign is right here on this board for anyone to search out and implement if needed, or you could go with the tried and true bull crap story that the compensation are way to difficult to explain and that you should just trust they will do it right. Of course trust your lab or they shoudnt be your lab, but as the one provideing these devices to your patients demand that the technolgoy be explained.

[Barry Santini]

Maui Jim's new lens partnership with Shamir will include compensations.

My only issue is that MJ and shamir *assume* the frame wrap angles are what they measure the planos to be. I'd like to include a box for *my* own measured wrap angles....after adjustment to an individual face. This will often lessen the wrap angle, almost never steepen it.

And frames stretch out, anyway. Big hopes here. Let's see if shamir can get it optimized.

Now, if only the starting Rxs were as good as wrap/free form is becoming...

Barry

[HarryChiling]

Maui Jim's new lens partnership with Shamir will include compensations.

My only issue is that MJ and shamir *assume* the frame wrap angles are what they measure the planos to be. I'd like to include a box for *my* own measured wrap angles....after adjustment to an individual face. This will often lessen the wrap angle, almost never steepen it.

And frames stretch out, anyway. Big hopes here. Let's see if shamir can get it optimized.

Now, if only the starting Rxs were as good as wrap/free form is becoming...

Barry

That's almost verbatim what I told them, we fit them to the patients face not the patients face to the frame so the measurements are going to have to be unique. I like the idea of a check box letting the lab know not to compensate this way the fitter has more control, chances are their will onyl be a few that utilize the option of checking that box, but it provides a mroe customized lens. My rep told me he would give me a call the next time their lab manager is in the MD/PA area and I could talk to him about the wraps if I really wanted to, I think he's just getting frustrated with my questions.

[Trevor D]

We fax in an order that is already compensated by me, using an optiboard calculator, and it arrives in 3-4 days exactly as ordered. They have gotten the thickness on plus lenses, PD's, seg hts. and finish quality at a very high level. ;)
If they only compensated on there own, it would be a perfect program.

Hi Craig,

How accurate are MJ's surfacing and can you order to say 0.12D? For example, if your compensated Rx was say -3.12 -0.62 x 180 how close would the final lens power be to what you have ordered? Normally you would need to round up or down to the nearest 0.25D.

The problem I have found with compensated powers is the labs' inability to surface more accurately that 0.25D steps. I suppose with freeform manufacture this should be more accurate?

[AWTECH]

Hi Craig,

How accurate are MJ's surfacing and can you order to say 0.12D? For example, if your compensated Rx was say -3.12 -0.62 x 180 how close would the final lens power be to what you have ordered? Normally you would need to round up or down to the nearest 0.25D.

The problem I have found with compensated powers is the labs' inability to surface more accurately that 0.25D steps. I suppose with freeform manufacture this should be more accurate?

Yes with our freeform designs we can process within 0.01 of a diopter. We are only limited by the original prescription rounded data provided. If the original Rx was provided in 0.01 steps then the compensation and surfacing would be even more accuate.

[DragonLensmanWV]

Just spoke to our Maui Jim rep today and she said that Younger is making a new free form progressive just for Maui Jim and she will find out more about it next month. I can't remember the name of it.

She suggested when fitting the Image in a Maui Jim that you lower the fitting height 2 mms from pupil center. She said she had two pairs made for her, one on center and one dropped and she strongly perfered the dropped one.

The Image 360?:D

[Craig]

Hi Craig,

How accurate are MJ's surfacing and can you order to say 0.12D? For example, if your compensated Rx was say -3.12 -0.62 x 180 how close would the final lens power be to what you have ordered? Normally you would need to round up or down to the nearest 0.25D.

The problem I have found with compensated powers is the labs' inability to surface more accurately that 0.25D steps. I suppose with freeform manufacture this should be more accurate?

I always use 1/8 th's and they are surfaced correctly, we have 100% patient acceptance.
Craig

[HarryChiling]

I always use 1/8 th's and they are surfaced correctly, we have 100% patient acceptance.
Craig

Don't you mean 1/12^th's. :D

[Craig]

Don't you mean 1/12^th's. :D

Thanks for keeping me straight!
Craig

[LiquidPolarized]

How can I launch my new product to the optical community?

Hi, I make an aluminum frame sunglass in Arizona, all 100% USA made product for the sport market. The product is used by Harley riders, law enforcement, military and other civillian use. Longstory short, the frame is aluminum and does not have an eyewear opening, so I developed a unique clear plastic 1/2 mm thick material to hold the RX lens. The insert is transparent and looks like the RX lens is floating in the air, similar how Oakley originally did on the M Frame prescription. Somepeople said it resembled two eggs fried on your face, haha!

This product is far from two eggs over easy, this is actually steak and eggs with champagne. The hardest part is telling everyone about this fantastic product that allows you to offer a minus 6 to a plus 4 without limitations.

I need opticians around the country offering this product to people who thought they could not get an 8 base full wrap sunglass that has optional foam. This product will keep the wind out better than any Wiley X or Panoptix ever dreamed. A lot of people only know about Wiley X and think their Made in Taiwan product is the best option.

See my video at www.LiquidPolarized.com click on the YouTube video at the bottom left that says RX insert foam. Then give an opinion of how you would attack the USA market for RX using this product.