? on any law ?

[bt5050]

hi everyone -

just wanted ot run something by you all - and see if you have any info in regards to laws ect -

I was asked by a former PT - to take some measurments - ( PT pd - and seg ht ) - so he _ ( i am guessing ) - can order them thru someone else - i would would guess on line - i was actually told up fron tby the pt - "I DON'T need to tell you why i am askign for them - you must just give them to me " - that is how the conversation started so i know it was not going to be a plesent 1

anyways - When i asked my supervisor- they informed me - that it is the company's policy not to provide these services - and i was told that there might have been a issues in the past that we got burned on -
something about a pt - ordered PAL's thru somewhere else with our measuments - and when the person had a issue - guess what ?? that on line company - said - we filled it to how you ordered it - and we are not doing them over for free - "

our company - actually look responsibilty for it - and we made the glasses over for them - and i would imagine - we did not see one penny - for it -
i was told that the pt has always in a difintity and they filled it with a ao pro- and guess what the pt did not like the blurr - he saw -

i know from working at several large retailers - this is common practice - to just give something away - to make the customer happy - when in fact i think it will not ever make the customer happy - but maybe just quiet !! LOL

anyways - when i was asked to do this by a customer - and when i explained that we do not perform these services - he was not happy - he then procedded to play it slick - and say i had to give him it - since it was part of his medical files - however - i was told this is not the case either - and that the measuments are actually company prop. used to produce the finished eyewear - and not part of the pts personal file -
when i explained the ht cheanges based on the frame - he said - he had already come in picked out the frame - and we took the measurments - and the glasses where "ON HOLD " -- OMG - now folks are coming in and trying the glasses on - having us take the measurments - and ordering them online - i never thought someone would do this - but its a new one for me -

for me - it is no big deal - and i understand where both sides are coming form - however my job is more important to me and my family - so i follow the rules -
years ago - we used to do measurments for an AO safety program - and would charge a fittign fee - but this is no longer an option - since it is out of my hands - i on't make the rules i just follow them -

anyways - this pt - says i am breaking the law - by doing this - and when i asked what law - he could not say - but i was wondering if anyone else knows about this -

In our state - the pd - is not part of the rx - and furhtermore - when i checked - he has not had a rx done in over 5 yrs - when i asked about this - he said that he had one done recently - so i took the opportunity to say mybe the MD - would give her the infomation he was requesting -
and he said - he already checked - and the md was not willing to - so what i gathered was there was no recent exam - but that is really a moot point -

he also made a odd - comment - that he only had 1 week to get this done - and that it would take longer then that to go to the doctors with his EXTREMLY BUSY SCHEDULE - ( i know - mine is not busy at all ) LOL

just wanted to throw this out there - see if anyone else had issues come up like this before- and if there are any laws pertaining to this -

[Happylady]

I was told that in Texas the pd was part of the prescription. I will write the pd on the rx, but just a binocular pd like 63/60.

I don't believe you owe anyone a seg height. I have never heard that.

[MarcE]

In Kansas, the PD is required as part of the Rx. However, I have NEVER seem one on an MDs Rx. I wonder why? Could it be that the only enforcement agency is the state Board of Optometry. An MD could not care less what the optometrists think.

Anyway, I see your point. It's loaded with problems. You could charge a fitting fee for these measurements. They are services that require skill, and should not be given away. Even VSP will pay you a dispensing fee for a POF. However, I don't know if we as a retail goods provider want to go down that road. Long term though, it may be the future. If a major company owns a huge chunk of labs AND their lenses become a household name, what would stop them from setting up a store on the internet, sell directly to the consumer and having the consumer come to you for the fitting fee.

We have a dispensing fee that is included in the frame price. If the patient doesn't buy a frame, they still get charged a dispensing fee on top of the lenses. I guess that we could have the dispensing fee in the lens price like most others do, but it's the POF that will need new nose pads, screws, and an adjustment.

I guess my point is that there is a dispensing fee service code, dispensing fees are paid by vision plans and safety programs (even if you don't sell the lenses or the frame). And whether you are aware of it or not, a dispensing fee is either included in the frame or the lens price. This guy shouldn't get it for free.

Remember that consumer research shows that 2-3% of the population are trying to get something for nothing (not just cheap or frugal, but trying to steal services). Congratulation, you just found one!

[MarcE]

What I would do is say this
"Since you are in such a hurry, and you have a current prescription; lets get started right now. You pick out a frame and I will have your glasses done today or tomorrow!

Of course he will balk, so then I will quote $35 for the PD and $10 for an Rx verification. And when his new specs don't work, I will buy them back for 20% of what he paid as credit towards a new pair.

[cocoisland58]

Your patient is nuts. There is no law that says any optician must provide anything but the prescription and even that is the doctor's responsibilty. I am responsible for the PD and seg ht of any pair of glasses that I have measured and dispensed but not any on line purchase. I have taken and written binocular PDs for our many Indian patient's who buy outside the US but never would I provide a seg ht as there is just too much room for interpretation there.

[Johns]

I was told that in Texas the pd was part of the prescription. I will write the pd on the rx, but just a binocular pd like 63/60.

I don't believe you owe anyone a seg height. I have never heard that.

Give them as many seg hts as they want!

"12, 17, 21, 33, 29, 89, 54... here you go! Anything else I can do for you!
:cheers:

[bt5050]

As for the prof. fititng fee's - The old company i worked for - we did have this service - howvever - currently - this is NOT an option - since the decission was made - NOT TO PERFORM THESE SERVICES AT ALL - and i i stated before - I don't make the rules - i follow them - and that the decission is way over my head - if the company wants to go that route -

The pt - was now just asking me for a old PD - we had on file from a very old rx - i think it was at least 4 years ago - and HE SAYS he is ENTITLED FOR ME TO RELEASE IT TO HIM - !! he says it is actually part of his file - and under law - i must release it to him -

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU - although the company has the policy not to provide this info - MAYBE IF THIS GUY WAS NOT A ***Ho** - and was not so rude - I would never break the policy - but maybe i would have left the PD written on a pc of paper or something - - - and he had happened to see the info down - I would not mind so much and i would be respecting the company's P&P - but with how rude this guy was to me - and how demanding - and actually threating me with calling the BB or the states att. general - I DON"T FEEL I SHOULD PROVIDE ANYTHING TO HIM !! WOULD YOU ??
I am not one to back down - when i hear that they are planning on reporting me to my boss- or they are going to report me for breaking the law - when in fact i am not - and I am only doing my job - and follwoing the rules of the company - as well as I feel the best interest of the customer - although he does not feel this way - I can not wait till he comes back - to ask me to check the rx - in his new glasses - from on line - BECAUSE I COULD SEE HIM DOING THIS !!!!

Like i said - this was a new one for me - with the SEG ht - along with trying on the frame and putting it on hold -
I could see he did back down a BIT when we talked about the HT - however any feelings on the PD that we had on file from years ago ?

I rather give this guy ---- ( ILL stop and not even go there )))_ before i give him his stupid PD ---- HE shoudl just go in fron tof the mirror - like one site i saw give directions - and use the printed PD stick they provide -- LOL !!!

I think it woudl be even more funny - if this guy was a -.25 or something - but he is not even close to it -

[Johns]

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU - although the company has the policy not to provide this info - MAYBE IF THIS GUY WAS NOT A ***Ho** - and was not so rude - I would never break the policy - but maybe i would have left the PD written on a pc of paper or something - and walked away to grap something - and if i came back - and he had happened to write the info down

You wouldn't break the policy, but you would? Do you talk out of both sides of your mouth on every issue, or just this one.
:finger:

So if the guy's not a jerk, you're willing to break (bend) office policy?

If you tried that in my office, I'd fire you so fast, you wouldn't know what hit you. In fact, if I even had an idea you were thinking about it, you'd be in the unemployment line.

[bt5050]

I would not break any policy - I might have been unclear - or word ed it wrong -

as for the P&P at our job - I am one that follows them - and i understand that they are there for a reason - and who am i to place the company in a bad position - i understand that they are there for a reason - and who am i to decide otherwise -

however - Maybe if he was CIVIL to me - I would go a little further - and maybe either direct him to somewhere that would help him - obtain the info he needs - but i would not outright break the policy - and release it to him -

what bothers me - is when associates follow the any company's P&P - and then the customer gets upset - and either calls your home office - or owner of the company - and complains - and then for some reason - the policy is BENT - ( as i stated before i think it just to keep the customer QT- ) - however it makes the 1st person look like they are unwilling to help - and that the Policy really means nothing -

as for talking out both sides of my mouth - i always try to be somewhat consistant - however - i have seen this concept many many times - that it actually makes the staff look bad - when we follow the rules - and all - but then the rules are broken for some - that complain to the right people -
I make it a point to treat everyone the same - so the issues do not come up that i did something for 1 person - and not another -

As i stated - I don't make the rules - BUT I DO follow them - unless i get info otherwise from one of my managers - but i think consistancy is key - and a MUST- but i think some do not feel the same as i do

sorry for appearing that i pick and choose how i treat differant folks - however when i am instructed to so call "bend or change the rules " over and over form a superior - it gets confusing to me - as well as the customers

thank you for your views and help with my issue and it helps me to see things a differant way - i appreacite it -
have a great week -
b

[Andrew Weiss]

Hmm -- is an old eyeglass order part of the patient's medical records? When the patient asks for his medical records from your office, does the office photocopy everything in the file, including the old eyeglass orders?

As a former lawyer, I'd suggest that anything an office puts in someone's medical record file is part of the medical record, and the patient is entitled to a copy of that record. And I'd take it literally -- give him a copy of the old eyeglass order, and not write out the PD. He'll have a seg height there, too, but of course it won't be for the correct frame . . .

In this office, I am careful not to put any "on hold" orders in the patient's record file; as far as I'm concerned, they've never been acted on and therefore are not part of the record, so I keep them physically segregated.

If your state is like Texas and Kansas and has a law requiring ODs/MDs to include the PD when they write out an Rx for the patient, your office's policy is in violation of the law. That's a problem for the OD/MD, not for you.

[drk]

This online ordering stuff is going to get out of hand.

First, if someone wants to spend your inventory and staff time bogus shopping so they can order it online, I guess there's no way to stop that.

But I'd only give out an internal SKU# and price and not the frame name, size, color. Never.

As to p.d., follow the state law. I think p.d. as part of the Rx is quite rare, though, and I'd never provide it otherwise.

Seg height! HA!

If someone's asking for their medical record, I'd send them the medical record, only, not the financial records or optical records. Optical records are not medical records, just examinations are.

[drk]

And MarcE:
That's a razor-sharp response. You're obviously a superb business man.

[Johns]

But I'd only give out an internal SKU# and price and not the frame name, size, color. Never.

Seg height! HA!

:cheers:

[chip anderson]

I have policy with my prosthetic eye patients who have stood me up one time too many for appointments. No appointments after the third no show under any circumstances. Occasionally I have a patient who has done same and insists or begs to see us (especially if the prosthesis hasn't been delivered, or is in my office for enlargement, etc). If they get insistent enough, I simply tell them to come by the office, start putting down 100's and when there is enough there in advance, then my secretary will book them an appointment, if they no show for this one I keep the money.
I like this answer for your mail order spec's question.

Chip

[jherman]

Customers don't share the same rights to their records as patients do, or do they?

[chip anderson]

There are "medical records" and optical product records. One may be essential to health and one may be propriatory to product manufacture.
Hell even insureance companies and lawyers, and disabilty eligablility offices, etc. will pay at least $15.00 for "copies of all records". Why not just charge $15.00 with a disclaimer "records of past treatments only, may not be applicable to future situations." Write the P.D. on a paper that says: P.D. April 1967 an nothing else on the page except the disclaimer, no signature, no other details of Rx, no interpretation for convergance (distance P.D. Only). And be done with it.
If you tell someone the diameter and a or thread of a bolt you aren't responsible for what the try to put it into.

Chip

[AdmiralKnight]

I think it depends on how your office is run. If you refer to what Andrew said, it's entirely possible that if you put the measurements of an on-hold frame in his file, he's entitled to it. I'd imagine it would depend on where you are, but here atleast, the patient is entitled to ANY and ALL information in his file. It's fairly cut and dry. I'm sure you could fight it, if it came to that point, but would your office be willing to fight for something like that?

[Andrew Weiss]

Customers don't share the same rights to their records as patients do, or do they?

At the risk of being unpopular ;):

If you are an optician working in an OD/MD office, and the optical dispensary is an integral part of the office (owned by the OD/MD or by the same legal entity -- corporation, partnership, etc. -- which owns the optometry/opthalmology practice), and the optical records are kept in the same patient record as the exam records, it becomes legally difficult if not impossible to separate out the activities of the dispensary from the activities of the exam-office. The folks who get their eyes examined or get eyeglasses there are coming to an establishment which the law recognizes as a medical establishment. The law considers those folks are "patients" under the care of the medical professional, and they don't suddenly become "customers" when they go into the dispensary.

It's a different story when the dispensary is separately-owned, and of course an independent optical shop is different as well.

To be 100% certain, I strongly suggest you check your state's laws and regulations on medical records and see what qualifies as a medical establishment. It may vary from state to state.

[Cowboy]

For Mr. A-Hole patient, remove yourself from the equation - either turn it over immediately to a supervisor, or say to him "If you can provide a copy of the law that states you are entitled to what you need, then I will be more than happy to get a supervisor to give you that information - other than I cannot help you due to our company policy. Here is the number you can call.

Johns - don't be so fast to fire someone, if you are the owner, have you bent policies to please customers? Discussion will get you more respect and longevity of a valued employee than muscle. I don't mean to offend you by this, but I hate seeing management think they are impervious to the rules they break and then try to enforce them. :cheers:

Cowboy

[obxeyeguy]

and the optical records are kept in the same patient record as the exam records, it becomes legally difficult if not impossible to separate out the activities of the dispensary from the activities of the exam-office.

Andrew, this is my situation except, I keep separate eyeglass records not filed with the medical records. Your expertise,( read in free legal advice) is welcome. Mark

[Andrew Weiss]

Andrew, this is my situation except, I keep separate eyeglass records not filed with the medical records. Your expertise,( read in free legal advice) is welcome. Mark

Hmm -- you've given me a legal research job :D I'll check into NC law on medical records and get back to you.

[jherman]

I'll throw in four season passes for the FezzJohn beer slide for information pertaining to the classification of records for a separately run, OD/MD owned optical in Texas?

[Andrew Weiss]

I'll through in four season passes for the FezzJohn beer slide for information pertaining to the classification of records for a separately run, OD/MD owned optical in Texas?

You would offer this to the only tea-tottler on the board! :bbg::bbg:

One legal research project at a time, folks. Besides, I'm local to NC and I can call a local lawyer to get a quick read on whether I'm on base in my interpretation; can't do that so easily with Texas, I'm afraid.

[Fezz]

You would offer this to the only tea-tottler on the board! :bbg::bbg:

Make that two tea-tottlers!


I don't drink.


Much!
;)

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[Bill West]

Give them as many seg hts as they want!

"12, 17, 21, 33, 29, 89, 54... here you go! Anything else I can do for you!
:cheers:

You the man, John.:cheers: