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Thread: Crizal Coating

  1. #1
    Doh! OptiBoard Gold Supporter braheem24's Avatar
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    Question Crizal Coating

    While I'm a firm believer in A/R, I do not believe in the hype sold to dispensers by progressive manufacturers and ESPECIALLY by A/R manufacturers.

    I've been using made in china and taiwan A/R for the past 6 years and have been relativly happy with the quality.

    This time around I pampered myself and ordered a finished pair of -1.00 SPH OU Essilor SV lenses with Crizal. (700% more expensive)

    It has been 2 weeks and both lenses have cracking in the A/R, something my "made in China" previous lenses did not have in my 1 year of wearing.

    Is it just me or does someone actually notice a reson to pay the difference between decent quality A/R manufacturers?

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    I am going to be perfectly honest here, so I do not want junk being said that I am bias or anything.

    I started in the industry 11 years ago. Through that time I have used RF99, Seiko, Pentex, no name, OSA Lite HMC, UTMC, and Nikon HCC to just name a few. Crizal is the FIRST and only one where I did not get people returning regularly. The other coatings would range from everyone returning (no name ones) to one a month to bimonthly (HCC). I get maybe once a year with Crizal.

    Where all of my competitors are using other coatings and saying they are just as good, they are also going around blaming their customers for using too much make up, spending too much time outside under the sun, and opening up ovens as the reason for crazing. I do not need to. That is why I use Crizal.

    Is it that Essilor is just better? No. I am sure your Chinese coating is just as good. Here is the problem, there are so many independent coatings out there, and many of them have failed for me. How do I know to trust coating XYZ next time? It is a risk. To test it out I have to put them on many customers and wait several years to see the results. I cannot treat my customers like guini pigs to try that out.

    So when it comes down to it I use Crizal. I also use Super Hi and I am sure that Carat Advantage holds up. But trust wise, I have to use what I know.

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    Crizal and Alize hold up, period. Three years on my own pair and not a scratch nor wear. If your's are already crazing there is a defect in coating so send them back. There are some in house coatings that we use when turn around needs to be quick. They are ok but for smudge proof lenses, Alize is great. You can just shake the water off and they're clean. We wear it, we like it, we trust it,we sell it.

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    OptiBoard Professional bren_03825's Avatar
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    Premium vs in house/non premium AR

    Quote Originally Posted by braheem24 View Post
    While I'm a firm believer in A/R, I do not believe in the hype sold to dispensers by progressive manufacturers and ESPECIALLY by A/R manufacturers.

    I've been using made in china and taiwan A/R for the past 6 years and have been relativly happy with the quality.

    This time around I pampered myself and ordered a finished pair of -1.00 SPH OU Essilor SV lenses with Crizal. (700% more expensive)

    It has been 2 weeks and both lenses have cracking in the A/R, something my "made in China" previous lenses did not have in my 1 year of wearing.

    Is it just me or does someone actually notice a reson to pay the difference between decent quality A/R manufacturers?
    Are those airwear lenses, where they finished in house or at the lab? In 16 years, I have used almost every coating, in house, up to Alize clearguard, Carat Advantage, and I have noticed one thing. While all seemed good, and under normal wear and tear ( not cleaned on shirts, not used in an industrial enviroment, etc.. ) lasted about the same, Zeiss, Essilors, and Hoya's premium AR coatings have outshined and outlasted the competition. My AR percentage is around 75-80 percent, and I will use an inhouse coating only for the patient needing glasses the very next day. Depending on the lens, I will choose one of the three I mentioned above.
    :cheers:
    Brendan :cheers:

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    Doh! OptiBoard Gold Supporter braheem24's Avatar
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    I have CR-39 Finished lenses from Essilor ordered thru optigenics and received in an essilor finished lens package.

    I should mention the scratches are not noticable to the average person you have to hold the lens at a 60-70 degree angle in a high contrast light enviornment (night time with 1 light source) and you will see horizontal striations throughout the lens.

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    OptiBoard Professional bren_03825's Avatar
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    Sounds more like a lens defect

    That sounds more like a lens defect or a defect in the first layer or two. Never use a stock lens coated, my lab manufacturer told me that, there have always been some problems. Whenever they (the coating lab) coat a lens, I have no problems period, but when I have received a stock coated lens, it hasn't been good. Don't know why, you would figure it to be the same.
    :cheers:
    Order the lenses as a non stock lens, and when you call Optogenics, ask for Kendra. Tell her Brendan said hi, and will get a hold of her soon...
    :bbg:
    Brendan :cheers:

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    Quote Originally Posted by bren_03825 View Post
    That sounds more like a lens defect or a defect in the first layer or two. Never use a stock lens coated, my lab manufacturer told me that, there have always been some problems. Whenever they (the coating lab) coat a lens, I have no problems period, but when I have received a stock coated lens, it hasn't been good. Don't know why, you would figure it to be the same.
    :cheers:
    Order the lenses as a non stock lens, and when you call Optogenics, ask for Kendra. Tell her Brendan said hi, and will get a hold of her soon...
    :bbg:
    I'm normally not rude and blunt; but that is TERRIBLE advise. And look at your source. THey are NOT unbiased. I have the best luck with stock AR. I ALWAYS order a stock, factory coated lens when the Rx is available. The factory coating is more consistant, the room is cleaner, the humidity is constant, etc, etc. The good brands have matched hardcoatings. I would dare say that if you order a Crizal -1.50 lens you are probably getting a stock lens half of the time. You just paid 3x as much as I did.

    Had a guy come in after 3 months w/ his Crizal lenses all scratched up from cleaning. I already replaced them once. I am amazed at what fabulously great luck you guys have with Crizal and ALize. My most durable AR is stock, most any brand except the cheapest are great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by For-Life View Post
    I am going to be perfectly honest here, so I do not want junk being said that I am bias or anything.

    I started in the industry 11 years ago. Through that time I have used RF99, Seiko, Pentex, no name, OSA Lite HMC, UTMC, and Nikon HCC to just name a few. Crizal is the FIRST and only one where I did not get people returning regularly. The other coatings would range from everyone returning (no name ones) to one a month to bimonthly (HCC). I get maybe once a year with Crizal.

    Where all of my competitors are using other coatings and saying they are just as good, they are also going around blaming their customers for using too much make up, spending too much time outside under the sun, and opening up ovens as the reason for crazing. I do not need to. That is why I use Crizal.

    Is it that Essilor is just better? No. I am sure your Chinese coating is just as good. Here is the problem, there are so many independent coatings out there, and many of them have failed for me. How do I know to trust coating XYZ next time? It is a risk. To test it out I have to put them on many customers and wait several years to see the results. I cannot treat my customers like guini pigs to try that out.

    So when it comes down to it I use Crizal. I also use Super Hi and I am sure that Carat Advantage holds up. But trust wise, I have to use what I know.
    The problem with AR in our market as I have seen it is that most or many dispensers/practice owners don't really care about the quality but more about price. This is why there are so many coaters now. What you ALL need to notice is that you can put coaters in two categories. The first is those that have been around for many years with quality product, a research department and a product that is controlled. The second category is those that haven't been around a while or may actually be a lab needing to fill a machine cycle. I think we all know the corners that labs typically cut to get lenses out. There is science in AR coating and I typically question the science in lens surfacing if you know what I mean.

    It is most important to know what an AR is and the difference between products before trying one. You need to understand lens materials, hard coats, AR stacks, top layers and how they all work together. And remember, just because a manufacturer has been in the lens business for a while doesn't mean that they can produce a quality AR as past and recent history shows us. Ask questions about your AR and if you can't get quality answers or answers at all then look elsewhere. There are too many coaters now that product JUNK.

    There is a new coater in a SE state that will AR for cheap with a two year warranty. I have called for information and their product should hold up just like Walmart AR. I don't know about you but I don't care about a two year warranty if it will need to be used. I would rather not see the patient back!

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    We here a lot on this board about aparant "brainwashing" from the big guys, but I do think a lot of the cheap guys are more guilty of that. I remember a guy coming into my store and telling me how his stock AR lenses hold up just as well as Crizal and the price of these things were less than a cup of coffee. Well, I am not stupid and did not fall for it, but I know others who have because now I have their clients.

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    If you choose to buy the inexpensive lenses, be sure to ask for COLTS test results. For impact and adhesion. I have seen problems with both in these cases. Some are very brittle. I have also seen the AR come off with the leap pad. Who is to hold these companies responsible (almost all lens companies now are off shore). If there is a problem with impact resistance these companies may no longer be existent.

    As for the ordinal post. Maybe, I have met low lives that , when you request a certain product, supply these fraction of cost products. If there is a problem they replace the lens with as many cheapies as necessary, or maybe the top quality one requested in the first place. What did they lose. The cost of the cheapie product. If you have this suspicion ask for box tops or packages some type of proof. .

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    Redhot Jumper Matching the others....................

    I am just wondering how many "glory singers" in the Ar Reflex choir are influenced one way or another by some of these corporations, that they can't leave a good hair on other products or brands or makes.

    Have you ever heard that if you make a product that is not matching any better ones .................you don't stop improving your own until it matches the glorified one or better.

    So whoever had a product that was not up to par a few years back might have a quality that surpasses the glorified one.

    So don't be one way opticians............the road goes both way's !
    Chris Ryser
    ________________________________________
    DLO. NA.IC.I.T.PO

    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    I am just wondering how many "glory singers" in the Ar Reflex choir are influenced one way or another by some of these corporations, that they can't leave a good hair on other products or brands or makes.

    Have you ever heard that if you make a product that is not matching any better ones .................you don't stop improving your own until it matches the glorified one or better.

    So whoever had a product that was not up to par a few years back might have a quality that surpasses the glorified one.

    So don't be one way opticians............the road goes both way's !
    I would say approximately 0 percent of these Opticians are influenced by the "glory singers" especially since all gave examples of other products they have dealt with and compared it to their standard.

    As I pointed out, I think it is more of the cheap guys who are the "glory singers."

    We speak from experience, not from advertisement. Of course this is said over and over again and tends to fall on deaf ears. Too bad really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gemstone View Post
    If you choose to buy the inexpensive lenses, be sure to ask for COLTS test results. For impact and adhesion. I have seen problems with both in these cases. Some are very brittle. I have also seen the AR come off with the leap pad. Who is to hold these companies responsible (almost all lens companies now are off shore). If there is a problem with impact resistance these companies may no longer be existent.

    As for the ordinal post. Maybe, I have met low lives that , when you request a certain product, supply these fraction of cost products. If there is a problem they replace the lens with as many cheapies as necessary, or maybe the top quality one requested in the first place. What did they lose. The cost of the cheapie product. If you have this suspicion ask for box tops or packages some type of proof. .
    It may be a good idea to ask for COLTS results but for manufacturers it is big $$ to have COLTS test your lenses and so many manufacturers do not have their lenses tested by COLTS due to the cost. They may also not want a record of their good lenses compared to other good and great lenses. My guess is that labs with coating capabilities, small coating facilities and off-shore suppliers don't ever go to COLTS. There is a very large company that does coating that you will never see advertise COLTS results or their own findings. I know how they stack up due to others testing their lenses just as COLTS would and lets just say, they are OK and absolutely nothing special.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joptician View Post
    It may be a good idea to ask for COLTS results but for manufacturers it is big $$ to have COLTS test your lenses and so many manufacturers do not have their lenses tested by COLTS due to the cost. They may also not want a record of their good lenses compared to other good and great lenses. My guess is that labs with coating capabilities, small coating facilities and off-shore suppliers don't ever go to COLTS. There is a very large company that does coating that you will never see advertise COLTS results or their own findings. I know how they stack up due to others testing their lenses just as COLTS would and lets just say, they are OK and absolutely nothing special.
    Most lens manufacturers use standard or proprietary test methods for developing new technologies and quite frankly don't need an outside laboratory for this purpose. However, independent labs such as COLTS offer validation of performance that can assist in commercialization of new products and be very powerful in the marketplace, especially when comparing performance against competition. For that COLTS is the best. I've used COLTS services for a couple of projects and have found their prices very reasonable and the data reliable.

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    Wink Pardon me while I grab my pitch pipe . . . . !

    I looked around for a couple of years looking for a decent inexpensive AR on stock. I put a pair on a baby Doc and let her bang it against lane equipment for a year. I put a pair on my wife's son who works as a commercial electrician. I left a pair on my dashboard for a year. Guess what?? Within 3 suppliers I found what I was looking for. For less than a double cappacunio. I offered the same warranty as the majors and had less than 1% return rate.

    I believe that everyone has a right to their own opinion and mine is that there is money to be made with some no name ARs!! I hope you're all having fun and making money!!

    :cheers:
    Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!

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    Doh! OptiBoard Gold Supporter braheem24's Avatar
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    Framebender, I would love to give it a try, PM me or post some details plz.

    -Ibrahim

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Framebender View Post
    I looked around for a couple of years looking for a decent inexpensive AR on stock. I put a pair on a baby Doc and let her bang it against lane equipment for a year. I put a pair on my wife's son who works as a commercial electrician. I left a pair on my dashboard for a year. Guess what?? Within 3 suppliers I found what I was looking for. For less than a double cappacunio. I offered the same warranty as the majors and had less than 1% return rate.

    I believe that everyone has a right to their own opinion and mine is that there is money to be made with some no name ARs!! I hope you're all having fun and making money!!

    :cheers:
    I agree, and that is what I was getting at in my previous post. There are some very good stock ARs. It has to do w/ quality control and matched hardcoats, not price. Lab applied AR on the other hand is a totally different deal. I know what you mean about having bad luck w/ these coatings. I was using one with great luck, and then on one pair, it peeled off with the leap pad. Just like the poster said above, no exaggeration. Just a bad batch due to improper quality control, or the wrong hardcoat.
    If you edge, do what Framebender has done and find a good stock AR. Stock lenses are thinner, spot on Rx, more consistant coatings, almost always available overnight, and you save $.

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