Succeed vs Autograph

[Crickett13]

Any opinions on either the Sieko or Shamir lenses using the new free form technology would be welcome.

Which do you preffer and why?

[Fezz]

My opinion is that they are over hyped and over priced.


But, if you like that kind of thing....have at it!



:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

[Perry]

Alot of interesting disscussion here on which brands are best.

One thing dispensers might want to consider is the fact that
much of your sales are to patients with vision insurance and
you are payed at a dramatically different rate depending on
which brand you fit.

In some cases you get a lower fee for fitting lenses that cost
you more. This will wreck your COG.

Dig deep into your insurance manuals and you will discover
which lenses to fit.

[lensman2007]

I haven't worn the Autograph, but the Seiko freeform are by far the best lenses I have ever worn. Not even close to anything else. And if I was a consumer and wore my glasses every day for a year or so definitely worth the extra cost.

[Freedom]

Seiko PALs is better quality and better coating with ORGATECH.
But higher price than Autograph.

[nate509]

We've used a good amount of both. I have spoke with some people in the know regarding these lenses (not just the company reps), and from what I gather they both have their target groups. The Seiko was designed with first time and early presbyopes in mind, while the Autograph was designed to cater to an experienced prog. wearer. We have dispensed probably a couple hundred Succeeds with really great results, previous non adapts and just about every other type of situation...We get them at a better price than any Essilor freeform out there too.


Nate

[Craig]

[quote=Fezz;195445]My opinion is that they are over hyped and over priced.


But, if you like that kind of thing....have at it!/quote]

We have dispensed a few thousand free-form lenses and the clients seem to love them; what more needs to be said.
I hate to see such a negative attitude towards technology when it is the future of the industry.
Don't knock it if you don't have any real experience. The past 4 years has yielded many happy clients who love progressive lenses and free-form is a major reason.
We don't use bi-focals just because they were wearing them before and we don't put people back in an old progressive design.
You might not like the future; but the past is past.
Craig

[Craig]

Any opinions on either the Sieko or Shamir lenses using the new free form technology would be welcome.

Which do you preffer and why?

We have dispensed hundreds of each lens and they are both great products; being true free-form lenses is the key to them being succecssful.
I would use choose by ease of delivery and then price of the materials you are interested in using.
You can't go wrong with any real free-form lens!

NO VARILUX 360 PRODUCT IS TRUE FREE-FORM, IT IS A MOLDED LENS SURFACED ON NEW EQUIPMENT. THE RESULTS ARE NOT THE SAME AND THE INDUSTRY NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.

I use many Kodak Uniques now and they are available in the most materials at the most reasonable price.
Craig

[Fezz]

[quote=Craig;209688]

My opinion is that they are over hyped and over priced.


But, if you like that kind of thing....have at it!/quote]

We have dispensed a few thousand free-form lenses and the clients seem to love them; what more needs to be said.
I hate to see such a negative attitude towards technology when it is the future of the industry.
Don't knock it if you don't have any real experience. The past 4 years has yielded many happy clients who love progressive lenses and free-form is a major reason.
We don't use bi-focals just because they were wearing them before and we don't put people back in an old progressive design.
You might not like the future; but the past is past.
Craig

Craig,

Thanks for calling me out. I am not really that experienced in optics and dispensing progressives. I'm more or less a newbie. I am learning everyday. One of these days, I might be as knowledgeable as MOST others on this great resource. I have tried a few of the "Free-Form" lenses. I don't really understand the technology, marketing, manufacturing, or the BS of said lenses. Could you give me some insight? Thanks for schooling a eager student!!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

PS. Thanks for your insight on the Ophthonix lenses(in other threads). What was your issue with them? You have them on your website(which is very nice), have you changed your tune?

[Craig]

[quote=Fezz;209712]

PS. Thanks for your insight on the Ophthonix lenses(in other threads). What was your issue with them?

The issue with Ophthonix was we had over 100 pair of their Izon progressives returned to us by our clients. We put them all in another free-form lens without the "magic goo" and they could all finally see and read. They produced the only free-form lens we ever had any problems with; and we have done thousands of the them over the past 4 1/2 years.

Utilizing a custom design lens and the ability to base-curve match the frame we are utilizing, gives us the ability to produce cosmetically good looking glasses and the optics are awwesome. The custom lenses offer the ability to continually:

GUARANTEE THAT THE CLIENT GETS THE BEST PROGESSIVE LENS DESIGNS POSSIBLE IN THE BEST MATERIAL FOR THE JOB!!

Just make sure you are gettting true free-form and not the Varilux 360 product, it only utilizes the technology in the distance portion of the lens.

Get your self a pair from from Pech and let me know what you think of the lenses.

Craig

[Crickett13]

Hey!!! fezz wait a month or two and get them from me instead! Pech indeed.:finger:

[Fezz]

Hey!!! fezz wait a month or two and get them from me instead! Pech indeed.:finger:

Keep me posted!

[Chris Ryser]

Alot of interesting disscussion here on which brands are best.

If you still believe in Santa..................that's it. Progressives are all in the same family whatever brand or NO brand.
Some have a longer or shorter channel or larger or smaller near field.

But all of them have an area of 65% distortion or any fancy names the term "distortion" has been baptised with.

[Andrew Weiss]

I am not really that experienced in optics and dispensing progressives. I'm more or less a newbie. I am learning everyday. One of these days, I might be as knowledgeable as MOST others on this great resource. I have tried a few of the "Free-Form" lenses. I don't really understand the technology, marketing, manufacturing, or the BS of said lenses.

Fezz,


It's hard for me to think of you as a novice in anything having to do with practical optical dispensing. But just in case, here are some thoughts about freeform progressives, based on my limited experience in dispensing and wearing them.


Where I notice the greatest benefit with freeform progressives is with patients with moderate to high cyl (especially with oblique axis), anisometropia, and with higher adds (2.50 and up). Freeform technology allows the lens manufacturer to modify base curves, powers, corridor and seg placement, and the (what Chris R rightly calls) “distortion” to give the best possible result for that particular patient's Rx, viewing habits and frame dimensions and fitting characteristics. You've already read that elsewhere in this forum, so that's nothing new.


My experience is primarily with the Zeiss Individual and Individual Short; with the earlier, and only partially-free-form, Rodenstock Multigressiv II, and with the (again) only partially-freeform Vision Source TrueClear HD (seemingly a modified version of the Accolade Freedom). The other lenses I wear are the Definity and Definity Short (which I don't call “freeform” because they use preset curve plots and do not individualize the lens for the individual patient's Rx and measurements, even though they use freeform surfacing equipment to make it), Rodenstock's XS and Life 2, and Shamir's Creation. My Rx is moderate hyperope, 1.00 of cyl on the left eye, and a 2.50 add.


I notice, especially with the Zeiss Individual/Short, cleaner optics in the distance periphery, smoother transitions (almost unnoticeable; things are either in focus or they aren't), and virtually no waviness or “swim” in the periphery around the corridor and seg. They give me generally cleaner and more precise vision; they feel natural and easy to use. My eyes seem to relax more with these lenses than with any of the others. I have been prone to migrane headaches, and when I would get one, I'd find that the Zeiss Individual/Short were the only lenses I could tolerate for more than 30 minutes or so.


I have found this experience borne out with my patients, especially those with more challenging Rxs or more unusual visual needs (longer reading distances, shortened vertexes, face planes which prohibit proper panto, etc.). I would also say that if I wanted to have the best chances of success with a new multifocal wearer, regardless of cost, the freeform lenses will give me that extra edge.


The only drawback I've heard of with freeform lenses is that some of them seem to have relatively smaller reading areas, but I have not verified that from my experience. The Zeiss lens especially seems to have one of the largest reading areas I've encountered in a progressive.


I know this is not scientific; I'll leave all that to Darryl, Harry C, Bob M, Adam C. and our other incredibly knowledgeable advanced/master opticians. Fezz, I think you already know all of this,but if you have any questions you think I could answer, fire away.


Thanks, all.

[Fezz]

Great Post Andrew!

Thanks!


;)

[Craig]

The only drawback I've heard of with freeform lenses is that some of them seem to have relatively smaller reading areas, but I have not verified that from my experience. The Zeiss lens especially seems to have one of the largest reading areas I've encountered in a progressive.

Thanks, all.

Excellent post, please keep it up and we can promote free-form as the future to allowing our clients to see as well as possible.
I have done many free-form lenses and have found the only issue that may be perceived in the near is a result of the flat base curves used by some designs. The Pentax/Seiko comes on very flat base curves while others run on a higher curve; this can cause the need for some extra face-form and panto. The flat curves will flatten the front of frame and change the way the client wears the eyewear, thus the need for extra adjusting.
I now order all my jobs and try to match the bc with the frame curve as best as possible. This gives us a frame that fits like the demo and the lenses look better mounted in the frame.
Craig

[Andrew Weiss]

I now order all my jobs and try to match the bc with the frame curve as best as possible. This gives us a frame that fits like the demo and the lenses look better mounted in the frame.
Craig

Nice idea, Craig. I'm interested to know whether the Shamir lab you use (Pech?) is ok with your specifying base curves on the Autograph. Also, do you try to match the frame curvature to the patient's facial curvature and eye-socket orientation?

I've clocked my Zeiss Individual and ShortI and the base curves are within 1.0 of the base of my Shamir Creation. Interesting.

[Craig]

Nice idea, Craig. I'm interested to know whether the Shamir lab you use (Pech?) is ok with your specifying base curves on the Autograph. Also, do you try to match the frame curvature to the patient's facial curvature and eye-socket orientation?

I've clocked my Zeiss Individual and ShortI and the base curves are within 1.0 of the base of my Shamir Creation. Interesting.

They can modify the BC to some degree to match the frame as close as possible. Most frames are a 4 base and we want to avoid a 0.50 base in there to avoid flattening it out. We try to be within one BC to get the fit as symetric as possible. Itis a little more difficult to get minus rx's in a 6 base free-form lens; then we go to a traditional lens and compensate the RX to match the 6 or so base we are using. The clients love the compensated optics and the frame fits like the one they tried on.

When we get to higher minuses we encourage them to pick a drill-mount and this allows us to give them the thinnest lens possible in a flat curve.

We only match the frame curve and let the job look as much like a plano as possible.

Please let me know if I can be of any help; I get my jollies making sure my stores send out the best possible work. The more people on board, the more changes we can effect in the indusrty.

Craig:)

[mikki]

I tried the autograph and fell in love with the lens.
Can anyone tell me what the freeform lenses they sell are retailing for?