Drilling edgers and drill hole layout - how does it work?

[snowmonster]

I'm entertaining the idea of buying an edger capable of drilling.

Can somebody tell me how you set up either the Briot Axcell CL-D or National Optronics 7E or Santinelli ME-1000 edger to drill a job? What I mean is, how do you tell the edger where to drill? Can it just trace the demo or pattern?

I've searched a bit on here but can't really figure much out.

Thanks!

-Steve

[Chris Ryser]

By the time you can figure that one out..............I have drillled a lot of holes by hand, with the good old touch and always a sharp drill.

[Jubilee]

Most rely on coordinate system. Your drill layout patterns, etc will provide that information or you can get it in a downloadble format from many frame manufacturers.

[snowmonster]

Great post Chris. Thanks for missing the point.

Hand-drilled holes don't always come out perfectly straight, and overly-analytical people like myself don't dig it when my Silhouette holes are crooked and look stupid, or drilled at the wrong angle. I made a pair of Silhouettes myself with a Bosch power drill and it came out pretty good, but I wouldn't want to attempt that on a 1.67 PAL transitions with AR.

Thank you to Jubilee for her info though. :)

-Steve

[shanbaum]

I'm entertaining the idea of buying an edger capable of drilling.

Can somebody tell me how you set up either the Briot Axcell CL-D or National Optronics 7E or Santinelli ME-1000 edger to drill a job? What I mean is, how do you tell the edger where to drill? Can it just trace the demo or pattern?

I've searched a bit on here but can't really figure much out.

Thanks!

-Steve

Some finishing systems (e.g., Kappa CT) can identify drilled feature locations from demo lenses (using a camera) which can be stored on the finishing system, or uploaded to other software systems together with the tracing where they can also (or alternatively) be stored.

And some software systems (e.g., Innovations) allow you to specify drilled features on tracings, which can then be downloaded to drills or drilling edgers using a standard interface.

Frames Data has a subscription service (called "Drilling Points") that comprises tracings and drilled feature locations which can be imported into some software systems.

[Leo Hadley Jr]

Drilling edgers have limitations and are by no means perfect. They require ultra-precise calibrations and a lot of maintainance. Remember, the more bells and whistles a machine has, the more things can go wrong.
I love the technology of the drilling edgers, especially the ME-1000, but I would definately have a back-up plan. If you are planning to do other accounts it would be wise to have more than one edger.

For example, lets say you get a piece of debris stuck in your groover assembly and it burns out the bearing. "this will happen" Your edger is completely down until you get that replaced. By the time a technician gets to your office, you may not be able to produce a single pair of glasses for a week or two.

I would highly recommend a stand alone drill like the less stress from Santinelli or the Smart Drill. They are extrememly precise and YOU are in control. I personally will stick with my trusty hand dremel

One last thing,
It would be best to hear what the owners of this equipment have to say about it. I know there are many on OptiBoard that can chime in here. We have bought several drilling edgers from customers who love the machine, but wanted to sell it before the warrantee or service contracts are expired. These are HIGH maintanance machines and without pricey warrantee or service contracts. You are dead in the water. You will probably be paying for the edger anywhere from 3-6 years, be sure your contract outlasts the payments. If you only buy 1 year of protection at a time, The price will spiral out of control and you will be selling your edger at a loss.

[snowmonster]

Good insight. I love this forum!

I'll consider a Less Stress or SmartDrill with this input, still curious to hear specific advice from the 7E and Axcell and ME-1000 owners.

-Steve

[mike.elmes]

I own a Kappa CTD, and I have found it to be an incredible tool!! I love doing drill mounts, they are fun for me now that I have a tool (machine) that makes fast work of it. I have had mine for a year and a half. Took a few months, no, many months, to get the hang of. I could do a clinic on drill mounts now(on this one). Mine even gives me control over drill angle on higher base lenses. I used to do drill mounts by hand too. This IS the cats *ss. Silhouette drill mount start to finish 10 minutes. That includes programing the hole locations and plug mounting. I own the company record in fact....Eye test a client followed by a frame selection, Silhouette of course, made to measure, ready for client in 46 minutes....money in till. :cheers:

[Leo Hadley Jr]

I own a Kappa CTD, and I have found it to be an incredible tool!! I love doing drill mounts, they are fun for me now that I have a tool (machine) that makes fast work of it. I have had mine for a year and a half. Took a few months, no, many months, to get the hang of. I could do a clinic on drill mounts now(on this one). Mine even gives me control over drill angle on higher base lenses. I used to do drill mounts by hand too. This IS the cats *ss. Silhouette drill mount start to finish 10 minutes. That includes programing the hole locations and plug mounting. I own the company record in fact....Eye test a client followed by a frame selection, Silhouette of course, made to measure, ready for client in 46 minutes....money in till. :cheers:

Excellent post!!!
I really miss the days of taking a patient through the entire process.
The Kappa CTD is a great piece of technology. Just keep it very clean and it should last a long time.

[gemstone]

Stand alone drills are best. Just my opinion. The smart drill is a cheap sub, I'd recommend the Berkshire drill. It is light years ahead of the smart drill. It does cost more. I have used both.

[snowmonster]

Do you have a link to the Berkshire drill? I've not heard of it.

Thanks.

-Steve

[gemstone]

I am no longer in the lab. But used the Berkshire on my last job. It stores driil points and is very easy to use and program. It's is fun figuring out the drill points for the stuff that was not already stored. The one I used came from Salem Distributing.

[braheem24]

Do you have a link to the Berkshire drill? I've not heard of it.

Thanks.

-Steve

http://www.berkslabs.com/

[Craig]

I'm entertaining the idea of buying an edger capable of drilling.

Can somebody tell me how you set up either the Briot Axcell CL-D or National Optronics 7E or Santinelli ME-1000 edger to drill a job? What I mean is, how do you tell the edger where to drill? Can it just trace the demo or pattern?

I've searched a bit on here but can't really figure much out.

Thanks!

-Steve

I have owned the ME-1000 for over 2.5 years and had the second machine in the US market; it has been beyond amazing. We do at least 10 drill jobs per day and this machine makes it possible to reproduce an exact copy of the right lens from 2 years ago. If you want to see what it can do in action, please go to the following website http://www.santinelli.com/products/Fashionlab.aspx and see the real key to the machine, the Fashion Lab software at the bottom of the page to see a demo. We have had the pleasure of using the software for almost 18 months and it gives us a template for all drilling measurements by frame chasis (saves a Silhoutte and puts on any shape) and job pattern with or without the drill holes. We then get to save 100% of our patient jobs by our job number. We can program a seg ht change or an RX change in less than 30 seconds.
This is the future and the only way to maintain any consistency on drill work over time; one must take the time to learn what the equipment can do and will then realize that drill jobs in the right mounting are actually the easiest eyewear to make and maintain. Yes we prefer drill mounts for all prescriptions.
Hand drills are for folks who have yet to take the time to see what drilling at the proper angles and speeds can do to ensure the best job possible; not the best job you are capable of building with limited equipment.
Great Thread!
Craig
www.eyetopian.net

[gmanlook]

Just an additional note. I have for years drilled many jobs by hand, what you will find out is that you need to control the angle of the hole (most common being straight, angled to be perpendicular to the front curve). Using the Santinelli ME 1000 in conjunction with their Fashion lab software makes it so easy I can't believe it!! If you have ever drilled one of the Daniel Swarovsky shapes you know that the two holes drilled temporaly are 1/10 of a millimeter seperation. If this is off - the temple will tip up or down quite substantially. With the Fashion Lab software these holes are placed exact. Also the calibration and maintenance is quite easy. Love the machine and the software, I would reccomend it highly.
Gary

[eyeboy]

Is there an easy way of calculating the amount a hole should be angled, when the base curve of the fitted lens is different from the demo lens. Looks like it should be simple geometry but I'm struggling.

[lab fly]

I have the Kappa CT and after the initial quirks, I can knock out drill mount lenses in minutes. Hole location layout is very easy and precise. Highly customizable.(Word?) Keep a sharp bit and I have had no problems. I do hovever chamfer by hand finished holes but that is just something I prefer to do but only take a couple twist of the dremel bit.

[eyeboy]

To visualise it draw the diagram for deriving the sag formula from Jalie (not got it in front of me so please bare with)

1. Draw a right angled triangle so that the, short side/opposite = y, hypotenuse = radius & middle side/adjacent = radius - sag.

2. At the intersection of the y line draw a perpendicular line. This could represent a side drill insert in the dummy lens assuming the dummy is straight!

3. If the hypotenuse is extended it creates an angle, A, with the line in (2.).
This angle is also the same as the angle between adj and hypot.

4. To calculate y. Measure the distance between the holes and divide by 2. Add the inset.

5. Angle A can then be calculated for the dummy (or existing lens).

6. Calculate angle B using the new base curve, y should stay the same.

7. Difference between A and B should give the approximate angle of drilling.

I know I haven't allowed for nasal drill points and probably a load of other stuff.

[Fezz]

I am surprised that our very own rimless expert=Billy Brock has not chimed in. If anybody knows a thing or two about drilling, its Billy! Maybe you could contact him for some advice, or questions.

www.BillyBrock.com

I am not affliated-just in awe!

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

[Craig]

Is there an easy way of calculating the amount a hole should be angled, when the base curve of the fitted lens is different from the demo lens. Looks like it should be simple geometry but I'm struggling.

This is a great question; I would first have done my best to order a lens in a similiar base curve to the frame and just compensate the RX using Mr. Meisters' formula. This is ideal and you get to drill the lens perpindicular to the front curve and maximize tensil strength thus ensuring the frame also fits like the demo they tried on.
For your question we would need to know what we are working with and come up with the best compromise based on mounting system and lens type. You always need to stay as close as possible to the drilling angle of the demo to ensure the temples are not too wide or narrow, depending on the BC direction of change.
Hope I can be of help.
Craig

[eyeboy]

I normally do match the base curve as close as possible. I was really looking for a calculation for the angle of drilling when this can't be achieved. Is this what you mean by Mr Meisters formula and where can I find it? I did an approximate calculation above and I'm wondering if anyone thinks its right or if there is a simpler way from Daryl?

[Fezz]

[quote=eyeboy;191972Is this what you mean by Mr Meisters formula and where can I find it? [/quote]

www.opticampus.com


Some other calculators are on another Obtiboarders site= "thedude"


www.opticiansfriend.com


:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[HarryChiling]

If you use the formula for circle in geometry you have

(x-h)² + (y-k)² = r²

with the center of the circle being set to (h,k) = (0,0) you can further simplify the formula to:

x² + y² = r²

this should look familiar at this point, but I had to explain it from the circle equations because it only really makes sense this way to me anyway. Now how is that going to help with the drill angle, you'll see.

Now lets say you have a point that you are drilling 15mm away from the optical axis on an 8base lens, n = 1.5:

an 8 base lens has a radius of:

r = (n - 1)/D
r = (1.5 - 1)/8
r = (0.5)/8
r = 0.0625m or 62.5mm

So know we got the radius of the circle (lens) and we will set our x coordinate to how far from the optical axis (y-axis) we are drilling:

(15)² + y² = (62.5)²
225 + y² = 3906.25
y² = 3906.25 - 225
y² = 3681.25
y = Sqrt (3681.25)
y = 60.67

So our drill point is at the coordinate (x,y) = (15,60.67) now if we used this point along with the center of the circle (h,k) = (0,0)(now we see why we started with the circle equation) and found the slope of the line that intersects these two points in our grid

m = (y_{1 - y}2)/(x₁ - x₂)
m = (60.67 - 0)/(15 -0)
m = 60.67/15
m = 4.04

Now again the reason for doing it the long way is so you could actually see whats going on geometrically sure you could have just taken the point and used the coordinates, but then I wouldn't actaully be showing you anything at all.

Now the tangent of an angle is know by a shortcut in trigonometry as tan = opposite end over adjacent end, which refers to a triangle. If we were to apply this triangle to our grid, the angle would be equal to the rise (y) over run (x) or the y/x, hey wait a minute that menas the slope is the same thing as the tangent of the angle

tan(angle) = m
tan(angle) = 4.04
angle = tan^-1(4.04)
angle = 76^o

Now this angle is the angle from the horizontal plane and we use the angle from the optical axis so the angle from the optical axis is 90^o so the difference is the angle we are looking for.

90^o - 76^o
14^o

From this point if you want to make any shortcuts to the equation that you want it's yor perogative, but don't tell me I never told you nothing.:bbg:

[gmanlook]

Since I use the ME1000 with the Fashion Lab software I have found that a simple way to come very close to hole placement when differing from the demo base curve is that if your demo lens is say a 6 base and you are going to drill a 8 base for every diopter of base curve change there is approximately 1mm movement that you should move the hole. So for a 6 base that is say 5mm inset on a 8 base you need to inset the hole 3mm. This is what I do and it is always real close. Also I picked up some cheap poly 8 base from Pech Optical to use as my test lens to make sure everything lines up. I hope that this helps and good luck to you. Gary

[HarryChiling]

gmanlook,

I am only familiar with the ME1000 by demo and have never actually worked with one in production, but are you saying that the software in the equipment doesn't compensate the placement for you automaticaly? That would suck. Your aproximations sound about correct, but you will find that the compensation for changes in base curve will be less when closer to the optical axis and will increse when moving further from the optial axis, although I am not sure if the difference would be of any significance.