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Thread: Vision SOurce

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    Vision SOurce

    Does anyone have any thoughts , opinions or at hand knowledge about this group and how they operate? I am especially interested in talking to someone who has left the group but not necessarily someone who only has an ax to grind. I am wanting to know the good, the bad and the ugly. If you want to have a private conversation, I can give you my 800 number.
    Thanks and my apologies if this has been previously discussed.
    Florida Optician;)

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    Optiwizard making films Audiyoda's Avatar
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    It's a glorified - albeit invitation only - buying group. But rather than pay an administration fee each month, you pay them roughly 2.5% of your gross (yes, gross, not net) receipts at the end of your fiscal year. So...let's say you do a foreign body removal - obviously VS isn't involved with that at all but you're still paying them 2.5% of the gross receipt from that office visit. Let's say you're lab bill is $4,000/month from a ELOA lab (they offer outstanding VS pricing on most things) - you'll still paying 2.5% of your gross receipts to VS.

    Most of the time VS pricing is as good or better than what you'll get from any buying group. They also offer rebates (Crizal, Coopervision CLs, Alcon solutions...) direct from each vendor and some vendors offer year end rebates based on total sales. And for what it's worth, it's just about the only way you'll get an Oakley discount (5%) as well as get under Oakley's standard stock requirements (20 Opthalmic, 25 Sun for VS members).

    For most doctors it's a good buy in, but for some that have supply chains they don't want to change, it wouldn't be worth it. And if you sell a lot of Acuvue products it's really not worth it if you don't switch at least some of those fittings over to Coopervision.

    Also - as I said before, it's invitation only and only open to ODs and MDs - LDO are not invited to my knowledge.

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    Master OptiBoarder DrNeyecare's Avatar
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    I was invited to join. They took me out for a steak dinner at this country club nearby. Explained everything, and then when they got to the part where I would have to give them a percentage of my gross, I wanted to leave. CRAZY!!!

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    What a great topic.

    I want to let you know up front that I run a buying group so put that into consideration when reading this.

    Audiyoda did a great job of explaining Vision Source. One fee that was not mentioned was the advertising fee. That fee ranges from 2 to 3.5% of gross revenues depending on how VS classifies your practice. This fee is not necessarily bad if the dollars are spent to advertise your practice, but this is where I have heard some frustrations. Another piece to consider is that the doctor who gets you to sign on to VS makes money on you. If you remember how Amway worked this is similar.

    VS does get some pretty strong discounts from a few vendors, but we are getting very close with most of them. For the majority of vendors the discounts are similar.

    One of the largest strengts to VS is the networking that the doctors do. Many OD's I have talked with list this as the main reason they stay in VS. It seems to me that there are much less expensive ways to network though. I feel like we are networking right now.

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    Optiwizard making films Audiyoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADO View Post
    Audiyoda did a great job of explaining Vision Source. One fee that was not mentioned was the advertising fee. That fee ranges from 2 to 3.5% of gross revenues depending on how VS classifies your practice. This fee is not necessarily bad if the dollars are spent to advertise your practice, but this is where I have heard some frustrations. Another piece to consider is that the doctor who gets you to sign on to VS makes money on you. If you remember how Amway worked this is similar.
    I did mention it - I simply didn't call it an advertising fee. And I really don't think it's fair to call it that - it's like an administrative fee - granted they are also giving you marketing and a bit of advertising along with everything, but basically it's an admin fee.

    And that doctor who signed you up doesn't make money off another doctor. But the doctor who administers that particular VS region does get a small percentage of the yearly admin fee (like 2% of the overall fee - so it's really chump change).
    Last edited by Audiyoda; 05-10-2007 at 02:26 PM.

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    Optiwizard making films Audiyoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNeyecare View Post
    I was invited to join. They took me out for a steak dinner at this country club nearby. Explained everything, and then when they got to the part where I would have to give them a percentage of my gross, I wanted to leave. CRAZY!!!
    Then you missed the point. What do you pay your buying group each month for administering your ability to purchase with their buying power behind you?

    Having looked at VS from an optician's POV - with all the discounts/price lists/rebates considered - there's no way I wouldn't join VS unless my practice did not have a retail or dispensing side.

    Assume a gross of $500,000 and a advertising or administrative fee of 3% (the highest such fee). That's $15,000 for a year. That includes a website with eCommerce functionality so your patients can re-order contacts. That right there as dramatically reduced the number of calls we get in a week asking for a CL Rx. The fee also includes multiple networking opportunities including a well financed mid-year meeting with vendor's galore and plenty of free or exceptionally low cost CE opportunities.

    Now...look at your average buying group - usually 5-7% admin fee on purchases. Let's say you're averaging $5,000/month with vendors in your buying group. That's about $4,200 right there in fees. And I can assure you having seen the VS pricing sheets that your buying group can't touch VS pricing unless all you do is extreme high-end product lines. Our lab bill went down about $1,000/month. That's $12,000 right there. Our contact lens bills each month have gone down substantially as well (close to $1,000/month less). And you can't beat Alcon kicking back $1.00 for every complimentary kit we dispense (yes, those free starter kits - as long as we display nothing else but Alcon, they'll give us $1.00 for each kit we give to our patients).

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    Master OptiBoarder DrNeyecare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audiyoda View Post
    Then you missed the point. What do you pay your buying group each month for administering your ability to purchase with their buying power behind you?

    Having looked at VS from an optician's POV - with all the discounts/price lists/rebates considered - there's no way I wouldn't join VS unless my practice did not have a retail or dispensing side.

    Assume a gross of $500,000 and a advertising or administrative fee of 3% (the highest such fee). That's $15,000 for a year. That includes a website with eCommerce functionality so your patients can re-order contacts. That right there as dramatically reduced the number of calls we get in a week asking for a CL Rx. The fee also includes multiple networking opportunities including a well financed mid-year meeting with vendor's galore and plenty of free or exceptionally low cost CE opportunities.

    Now...look at your average buying group - usually 5-7% admin fee on purchases. Let's say you're averaging $5,000/month with vendors in your buying group. That's about $4,200 right there in fees. And I can assure you having seen the VS pricing sheets that your buying group can't touch VS pricing unless all you do is extreme high-end product lines. Our lab bill went down about $1,000/month. That's $12,000 right there. Our contact lens bills each month have gone down substantially as well (close to $1,000/month less). And you can't beat Alcon kicking back $1.00 for every complimentary kit we dispense (yes, those free starter kits - as long as we display nothing else but Alcon, they'll give us $1.00 for each kit we give to our patients).
    I'm glad they're working well for you. :)

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    Wave Lets clear up some confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiyoda View Post
    I did mention it - I simply didn't call it an advertising fee. And I really don't think it's fair to call it that - it's like an administrative fee - granted they are also giving you marketing and a bit of advertising along with everything, but basically it's an admin fee.


    Using their own wording it is called a "Cooperative Marketing Fee".

    The "Cooperative Marketing Fee" is in addition to the "Royalty" fee that was described in your message. So the VS member is paying anywhere from 4.75% to 5.75% on the gross receipt of that office visit you perfectly described.

    They also have a transfer fee, renewal fee, audit fee, site improvement fees, and even a termination fee of $5,000 is you choose to quit without signing a non compete clause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audiyoda View Post
    Then you missed the point. What do you pay your buying group each month for administering your ability to purchase with their buying power behind you?

    Having looked at VS from an optician's POV - with all the discounts/price lists/rebates considered - there's no way I wouldn't join VS unless my practice did not have a retail or dispensing side.

    Assume a gross of $500,000 and a advertising or administrative fee of 3% (the highest such fee). That's $15,000 for a year. That includes a website with eCommerce functionality so your patients can re-order contacts. That right there as dramatically reduced the number of calls we get in a week asking for a CL Rx. The fee also includes multiple networking opportunities including a well financed mid-year meeting with vendor's galore and plenty of free or exceptionally low cost CE opportunities.

    Now...look at your average buying group - usually 5-7% admin fee on purchases. Let's say you're averaging $5,000/month with vendors in your buying group. That's about $4,200 right there in fees. And I can assure you having seen the VS pricing sheets that your buying group can't touch VS pricing unless all you do is extreme high-end product lines. Our lab bill went down about $1,000/month. That's $12,000 right there. Our contact lens bills each month have gone down substantially as well (close to $1,000/month less). And you can't beat Alcon kicking back $1.00 for every complimentary kit we dispense (yes, those free starter kits - as long as we display nothing else but Alcon, they'll give us $1.00 for each kit we give to our patients).
    Audiyoda,

    I invite you to PM me to get the real facts about buying groups.

    I manage a buying group and I don't know of any buying group charging those type of admin fees. If there are please let me know.

    This makes it very tempting to put my fees on here, but I am going to follow posting regulations. I can tell you that they are no where close to the fees being described above. Our members have savings very similar to VS and in some cases even better.

    I do agree that the meeting they put together is very well done.

    Alcons agreement with VS is not unique to them. In my last position I cashed checks from them every year and we were not VS. Some of the checks were in the 5 digit range.

    Using your numbers above you argued against paying the buying group $4,200 a year, but were willing to pay VS $25,000+. No way can a $500,000 practice make up that difference from us to VS. Their discounts are just not that much better.

    Before anyone makes the move to VS do some homework and check out your options. If VS is your best move that is great. If not then you will have options.

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    OptiBoard Professional Lee H's Avatar
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    ADO,
    I agree with you 100%...

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    I was invited to join this back in December 2006.

    I thought the cost savings looked impressive on contact lenses and other stuff, but then I realized that most of the contacts that we would be saving money on would be the older type of contacts that I find myself using less now because there are other better options on the market.

    It was a better option for us though only because if you have your own on-site surfacing lab, the fee goes down to 1.5% or something like that.

    Nevertheless, I didn't join, and I won't join. Any cost savings that will be generated will likely be pi$$ed away in fees.

    -Steve

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    Most of the ODs I've talked with about it really think its help quite a bit. Its a huge price to pay, and you'd have to expect them to really be helping you out for that percent of gross. Most of them talk about the practice management help they get, and the help they get from brainstorming with other docs. I think some of that stuff can be achieved through other, much less costly, means.

    I called, emailed, and never got even a response. I know for a fact there is no vision source office in my zip code.

    Who knows how they even calculate a fee for the first few years?

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    Optiwizard making films Audiyoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADO View Post
    Using their own wording it is called a "Cooperative Marketing Fee".

    The "Cooperative Marketing Fee" is in addition to the "Royalty" fee that was described in your message. So the VS member is paying anywhere from 4.75% to 5.75% on the gross receipt of that office visit you perfectly described.

    They also have a transfer fee, renewal fee, audit fee, site improvement fees, and even a termination fee of $5,000 is you choose to quit without signing a non compete clause.
    Sorry ADO - I've been through their various books over and over and unless the doctor is hiding it, there are no other fees that I can find. As far as I can see, this practice will pay 2.5% of gross to VS - period.

    But...considering we just saved an ungoldy amount on a ton of new equipment (VF, corneal topographer, new retnal photo...) we'd never have gotten those kinds of discounts from any buying group nor could the heft of those discounts have been negotiated privately. Add to that the discounts from our traditional vendors - sorry, but I've yet to find a buying group that can touch those numbers.

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    Doh! braheem24's Avatar
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    2.5% of gross including examination collections?

    An OD MAY find it helpful depending on the practice but I cannot see any way possible that an MD would benefit.

    My biggest concern would be how do they get around the anti-kick back laws from doctors that accept Medicare and other health insurances?
    Last edited by braheem24; 05-13-2007 at 10:55 PM.

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    I don't think its really geared towards MDs, or even opticians really. I thought it was almost exclusively a private OD practice thing. Am I wrong?

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    Master OptiBoarder Snitgirl's Avatar
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    Audiyoda,

    Does it say in any of those various VS books who the person/persons is/are who originally started this group? I would like to know just for my own personal reasons.

    Thanks Mucho..


    Quote Originally Posted by Audiyoda View Post
    Sorry ADO - I've been through their various books over and over and unless the doctor is hiding it, there are no other fees that I can find. As far as I can see, this practice will pay 2.5% of gross to VS - period.

    But...considering we just saved an ungoldy amount on a ton of new equipment (VF, corneal topographer, new retnal photo...) we'd never have gotten those kinds of discounts from any buying group nor could the heft of those discounts have been negotiated privately. Add to that the discounts from our traditional vendors - sorry, but I've yet to find a buying group that can touch those numbers.

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    Optiwizard making films Audiyoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snitgirl View Post
    Audiyoda,

    Does it say in any of those various VS books who the person/persons is/are who originally started this group? I would like to know just for my own personal reasons.

    Thanks Mucho..
    As I understand it, this is the practice where it all started. Specifically I believe with Dr. Ellisor.

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    Master OptiBoarder snowmonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audiyoda View Post
    But...considering we just saved an ungoldy amount on a ton of new equipment (VF, corneal topographer, new retnal photo...) we'd never have gotten those kinds of discounts from any buying group nor could the heft of those discounts have been negotiated privately. Add to that the discounts from our traditional vendors - sorry, but I've yet to find a buying group that can touch those numbers.
    This is totally accurate, the equipment purchase discounts are huge. My friend in the VS network just saved us $5,000 on a Zeiss Stratus OCT.

    -Steve

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    On the Sunset Tour! Framebender's Avatar
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    It was my understanding that . . .

    gross excluded professional fees since all these folks are ODs. I could be wrong, but that used to be the way it worked when my wife managed a Vision Source office.

    I hope you're all having fun and making money!!

    :cheers:
    Days where my gratitude exceed my expectations are very good days!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snitgirl View Post
    Audiyoda,

    Does it say in any of those various VS books who the person/persons is/are who originally started this group? I would like to know just for my own personal reasons.

    Thanks Mucho..

    Principal stock holders at incorporation were, Glenn D. Ellisor, O.D., Kevin McDaid, O.D., and Bobby Christensen, O.D. On July 24th, 1997 they merged with TLC.

    As of Dec 31, 2002 key employees, including Glenn D. Ellisor and Bobby Christensen are fully vested in 49% of common Vision Source stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Audiyoda View Post
    Sorry ADO - I've been through their various books over and over and unless the doctor is hiding it, there are no other fees that I can find. As far as I can see, this practice will pay 2.5% of gross to VS - period.

    But...considering we just saved an ungoldy amount on a ton of new equipment (VF, corneal topographer, new retnal photo...) we'd never have gotten those kinds of discounts from any buying group nor could the heft of those discounts have been negotiated privately. Add to that the discounts from our traditional vendors - sorry, but I've yet to find a buying group that can touch those numbers.

    Audiyoda,

    Dr. Ellisor may or many not be paying it as an owner, but if you were to look at the "other fees" section of a franchise agreement you will see 2.5 pages dedicated to the fees I described plus a few more that I did not mention.

    I am glad that there are doctors offices that feel they are being well served by VS. My goal to all of this is to show that there are options.

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