View Poll Results: What Should Be Done?

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27. You may not vote on this poll
  • Convict her and put her to death.

    16 59.26%
  • Have mercy on her she is mentally ill.

    4 14.81%
  • Sterilize her so this can't happen again.

    1 3.70%
  • Put her in a mental hospital for the rest of her life.

    6 22.22%
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Thread: Texas Mother

  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    Texas Mother

    Mother says she thought about killing for months
    She considered children damaged, blamed herself
    06/23/2001
    By Lee Hancock / The Dallas Morning News

    HOUSTON – Andrea Yates told police she began thinking several months ago about killing her five children and finally did it this week because she believed she was a bad mother and they were hopelessly damaged.

    Without emotion, Mrs. Yates also described how she methodically drowned the children Wednesday morning in her Clear Lake home, chasing down her oldest son, Noah, after he saw his baby sister floating lifeless in the bathtub and tried to get away, said a police official familiar with the case.

    She told police she had already drowned her three middle sons and carried their bodies to a back bedroom when her 7-year-old son walked into the open doorway of the bathroom and saw the full tub where 6-month-old Mary lay, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    "The kid asked, 'What's wrong with Mary?'" said the official familiar with the details of Mrs. Yates' taped confession. "The mama turned and told him to get in the tub. The kid took off running."

    Mrs. Yates chased the boy and "grabbed ... and wrestled him" back to the bathroom. There, she told police, she forced him down into the water beside his dead sister.

    "She essentially said she had realized that she was a 'bad mother' and she felt that the children were disabled – that they were not developing normally," said the official, recounting details of Mrs. Yates' 90-minute interview with police. "She told us that she had thought about doing this for several months."

    Even in a city that has seen more than its share of sensational murders, the horrific details of the Yates slayings have stunned veteran police and law enforcement officials.

    "I've been here for 15 years," said Joe Ownby, the Harris County assistant district attorney assigned to lead Mrs. Yates' prosecution. "This is the most horrendous thing that I have ever seen."

    Court appearance


    The 36-year-old mother made a brief court appearance Friday morning and was given a court-appointed defense lawyer. After shuffling into a closed courtroom with arms tightly folded, she softly answered "yes, ma'am," and "no, ma'am" to the judge's questions about her inability to pay for an attorney.
    Mrs. Yates stood slightly slumped in front of the judge's bench during the hearing, her long hair askew over an ill-fitting orange jail jumpsuit. She stared vacantly as she was led from the courtroom, clenching her arms to her chest as if fending off a blow.

    Authorities barred the media from the courtroom, allowing reporters to watch only from a nearby room where a poor audio feed made it impossible to hear much of the proceeding.

    Assistant District Attorney Kaylynn Willford gave state District Judge Belinda Hill a brief summary of the probable cause that led to Mrs. Yates' being charged with capital murder. But the prosecutor's account was inaudible and she later declined to speak to reporters.

    Judge Hill declined a request by Ms. Yates' court-appointed attorney, Bob Scott, to impose a gag order in the case. Mr. Scott could not be reached for comment Friday.

    But late Friday afternoon, prominent Houston defense attorney George Parnham visited Mrs. Yates in the jail along with her husband and other family members and emerged to tell reporters that he is now the attorney of record.

    Houston police have said that Mrs. Yates readily told one of their officers what she had done when he arrived at her home Wednesday morning to answer a call for assistance. A police spokesman said the shocked officer later recounted how Mrs. Yates, wet and breathing heavily, first told him she'd killed her children and then led him to their bodies. Noah, the oldest, was still in the bathtub, and his four younger siblings were in a back bedroom, shrouded in a sheet.

    After killing the children, authorities said, Mrs. Yates summoned police by phone and then called her husband, Russell Yates, a NASA computer engineer, to tell him he had better come home.

    Mr. Yates told reporters on Thursday that he was frightened by her tone and then devastated when he asked if someone had been hurt and she replied, "Yes. ... The children. ... All of them."

    Severe depression


    Mr. Yates and other relatives of the woman said she had been suffering from severe depression for several months and had not responded to several brief hospitalizations, multiple combinations of anti-depressants and a round of an anti-psychotic drug.
    Mr. Yates said his wife's emotional spiral mirrored a bout of depression in 1999 after the birth of their son Luke, a months-long ordeal in which she tried to kill herself with an overdose of pills and was briefly hospitalized.

    He and her oldest brother, Houston resident Andrew Kennedy, said they believed her latest downturn was triggered by the death of her father in March after a long and agonizing illness.

    "She'd gotten better for a while," Mr. Kennedy said. "But recently, you could kind of tell by looking at her. I'd say, 'How are you doing?' And she'd say, 'OK.' But I could sense that it wasn't OK. My sister, she didn't open up."

    He said he and other family members had noticed "changes" in Mrs. Yates demeanor even before she began having children in 1994.

    "I think it was a slow process," he said. "Both she and her husband, we talked to them a lot. But they were kind of – you know how some people don't like to ask for help? It was kind of that way. They didn't want to talk.

    "I also think it may have been a big mistake with them taking her off one of the medications a week or two ago. Maybe it was just a misdiagnosis," he said. "I think she needed a combination of medication and some therapy, but that didn't happen."

    Mr. Yates told reporters Thursday that his wife was taken off the anti-psychotic drug Haldol about two weeks ago, and had gone to a doctor on Monday to have dosages of several anti-depressant medications adjusted and to discuss starting therapy.

    She now faces a capital murder charge for the "death...by drowning" of her two oldest sons, Noah and John.

    Supportive family


    She is being held without bond in the Harris County Jail's mental health wing, where she is under round-the-clock supervision.
    Her Friday morning arraignment was postponed after Mr. Scott was appointed as public defender, and the hearing was reset for July 24.

    Mr. Ownby, the prosecutor, told reporters after the brief morning hearing that additional charges may be added later, after authorities decide whether to pursue the death penalty. He said he expects the case will be presented to a grand jury in about 30 days.

    Mr. Yates and other family members – including Mrs. Yates' mother Mrs. A.D. Kennedy and her brother Pat – declined to comment Friday afternoon when they came to the Harris County jail to visit Mrs. Yates.

    Mr. Parnham told reporters after he and Mr. Yates met with Mrs. Yates that she was "doing as well as could be expected."

    "The family is very supportive of the mother," he said. "This includes the father of the children ... they are unifying behind her."

    He declined to discuss his legal defense strategy, telling reporters he would defer such comments until after the children's funeral.

    Family members said the five children will be buried together Wednesday. Services will be at 10:30 a.m. at the Clear Lake Church of Christ.

    Staff writer Laura Heinauer contributed to this report.

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    I cannot begin to fathom how this could happen. It is a case of everyone knowing the woman was in trouble, but nobody figuring out how to help her. I saw her husband, the department of children's services and others being interviewed last night on Dateline. All said they knew she was in trouble, but never believed she was a danger to her children. I cannot remember hearing if she was under psychological care at the time, but had been previously.

    I am stunned by this. First Marie Osmond makes it a national issue, then this. I don't know what we should do with her honestly. I wondered about your thoughts and wanted to post the poll.

    Let's all pray for the husband, grandparents, aunts, uncles and other relatives. I am sure they need it right now!

    ~Cindy

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder stephanie will become famous soon enough stephanie's Avatar
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    Crier

    Ok maybe since I have no children I don't have any right to say anything, but that has never stopped me from sharing my opinion in the past. With that said....I am absolutely sickened by this. I heard she said she killed them because the were not developing properly and she felt that was her fault and that made her a bad mother. No killing your children makes you a bad mother. Lots of women suffer from post pardum depression but don't kill their kids. If she didn't want them anymore why the hell didn't she just give them up for adoption or give them to her husband? That is so sick. Obviously she is mentally ill but does that mean she doesn't have to be responsible for her actions? This is definately a very sick world we live in.
    Steph

  4. #4
    Formerly Jackie O Jackie L is on a distinguished road Jackie L's Avatar
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    In tears

    Cindy.....how horrible a death for the children. I voted to execute her. What is the difference between the Oklahoma bombing and mothers drowning their children. Nothing. Malice aforethought is murder.
    __________________
    "...and dance like nobody's watching"

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter mullo is a jewel in the rough mullo is a jewel in the rough mullo is a jewel in the rough mullo's Avatar
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    Crier Sad.

    Truly a sad event. I had heard on the radio that she chased the oldest boy around for a few minutes before drowning him. What a sick feeling it gave me. I have no more to say as I am truly sickened by this.........Mullo

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    Jackie,
    I agree that this is on the caliber of the Oklahoma tragedy, but I can't wrap my mind around the why. I cannot begin to understand the kind of mental illness that could produce this kind of hideous act. I want to believe that she loved her children, but as the article said she was damged and she believed them damaged as well.

    I have spent time sitting and trying to understand what makes a mother commit this kind of act. To chase down your oldest son and then systematically drown him? I cannot imagine the fight that boy must have engaged in to live! I cannot imagine his horror at walking in on the aftermath of his sister's drowning.

    That is the part that stumps me. That is the part that makes me feel she is mentally ill. No mother in her right mind could rationally commit such an act. The one thing that I have not heard is that she didn't care for her children. I have to beleive she is sick! I guess she must either be committed for life (but we all know that they eventually are released) , so I must side with the death penalty here.


    ~Cindy

  7. #7
    Bad address email on file John R is a jewel in the rough John R is a jewel in the rough John R is a jewel in the rough John R's Avatar
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    Redhot Jumper System

    This is one subject that really gets my back up, we palce childrens lifes in the hands of people who have no life experiance WHY.

    Once again the system thats supossed to protect the young and vunerable fails... This seems to happen far to often not only in usa but also over here, Just when are folks going to learn that getting a degree in some subject or other does not make you an expert in matters like these. I think it time for a major shake up of systems like these that are supossed to care for others welfare. Put thoes who have real experiance in life and caring for others in charge like, mothers and fathers of children who can spot problems like these not some jumped up uni i know all type, who spent 3 years in the uni bar learning how to get ****** on their grant.

  8. #8
    Master OptiBoarder Maria will become famous soon enough
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    Well, this case has been covered in our press. I voted for the option of sectioning her indefinitely. She is clearly mentally ill, and has in fact been treated for such problems. If anyone should be on trial it is the person who prescribed the anti-depressants. In doing so, he/she recognised that there was a problem, but did not follow it up sufficently to protect those around her.

    If she had a brain tumour, and it had been diagnosed as headaches, there would have been uproar when she dies of it. But, because it's a mental illness instead of a physical one, the patient is expected to self-diagnose and be responsible for their actions.

    Interestingly enough, my paper today said that no American has ever been acquitted on the grounds of post-natal depression, so it looks like she will fry.

  9. #9
    OptiWizard Suzy W is on a distinguished road Suzy W's Avatar
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    I have heard alot about this on the morning news as I am getting ready for work. I'm also someone without children who probably should not be saying anything, but I have to. The woman had to chase the last child around the house!!! Goodness! Should we put her in prision and let her live a "nice" life? I know I don't understand post-partum depression since I have never had children, but..... I can not understand how she could have done this. Everyone, I'm sure, has gone through some sort of depression in their life. That doesn't mean that we do things like that. I just don't understand why we should forgive her for this.... one thing I saw on the news was her husband forgiving her. WHY? I don't understand it.

    Thanks for letting me vent.

    Suzy

  10. #10
    OptiWizard Jim G has a spectacular aura about Jim G has a spectacular aura about
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    Well, first I'm surprised that any kid lives into adulthood! (Just kidding folks but those of us with 'em have certainly entertained the thot on occasion.)

    Under the category of "For What It's Worth," Haldol is considered a major tranquilizer and has been used primarily with schizophrenics. And, schizophrenia can be the basis for a legal defense. Schizophrenia would be much more likely to explain her actions than depression.

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter karen has disabled reputation karen's Avatar
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    Maria raises a very interesting point...Medical diagnosis vs. mental health diagnosis. I am a mother of one very wonderful 8 year old boy that I can honestly admit has made me want to at least put him somewhere where he will be quiet for more than one second. I guess the difference is that the part of my brain that knows what is right and wrong is functioning normally and won't allow me to choke the heck out of him. I just go somewhere and count to 10- or 1 million if the need arises. I am not denying that this woman is obviously ill and needs help but I don't think it excuses her behavior. Especially since there were signs that she needed help long before this happened. I am wondering why she couldn't have called the police BEFOREHAND. She obviously knew she had done something wrong. This whole thing just makes me want to cry.
    Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

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  12. #12
    OptiBoard Apprentice mikev is on a distinguished road
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    I just heard on the news that she's now being
    tested to see if she's pregnant again!

    The husband enters into this situation at this point! If you suffer severe mental problems post-partum, and you continue making babies, isn't it also the husbands responsiblity to help
    her?

    Many people look at the "choice" to have children
    with less thought than adopting a pet!



    Mike

  13. #13
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless will become famous soon enough Darris Chambless will become famous soon enough Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Hello everyone,

    Allow me to blunt, as well as harsh for a few minutes. Here we have a case where the mother (mentally ill or not) premeditated the killing of her children. We know from the reports that she had been "suffering" from post partum depression for four years and was being treated for this with drugs used for more extreme mental cases. I don't know about the rest of you, but this would send up a BIG red flag to me.

    A) You don't leave your children alone with a person (parent or not) that is taking medication to alter their mental state.

    B) You don't leave your children alone with someone that has emotional or mental problems of any kind.

    C) If you know that a person is mentally unstable or even mentally incompetant, you don't entrust them with anything let alone your own children.

    This woman is a waste of human skin and must be put to death. She is not useful to society nor will she ever be. If they should pull her out of whatever mental closet she's in she will never be able to live knowing that she killed her own children. She needs to die.

    The husband should be held as accountable as his wife. Why? Because he knew she had problems. I will make a prediction that it will all come out that the wife had made threats of killing her children for quite some time and that the husband just let it go in one ear and out the other never once thinking that his wife would actually do something like that. Basically he ignored it. He's an idiot and also a waste of human skin.

    I'm sorry but if you can stand by a person that killed your children and be supportive of them, you are a sick puppy. If this had been my wife, she would have been dead by my hands the moment I found out what had happened, police or no police. That doesn't make me macho, it makes me human.

    For those that think she should be committed for life; let me give you a little information. No matter how long you put a person like this in an institution you will never get a result conducive to living in the real world. They have already proven that they can't handle it even with counciling and medication. In an institutional environment these people will be "studied". Ask yourself a question. Why would you want to study a person such as this? So you can get a better understanding of this behavior? So that you might be better equipt to recognize this behavior and the warning signs? So that you can profile this behavior? Let me answer this for you. Psychiatrists and psychologists make a living by "studying" these people. They may gain some insight but it's useless insight. You can't "help" people like this woman, ever.

    Granted he's just a ficticious character in a novel but Hanibal Lecter is a good example. Psych docs study him because he is so facinating. The reality is that he is a diseased animal and the reality is that Mrs. Yates is a diseased animal and needs to be Euthenized. People like this are, and always will be, useless to society and should be irradicated. "Studying" them only gets you more material to use to train more psych docs. It's like Amay with a track team

    Anyway, that's my thinking on the subject.

    Like I said in the beginning it's harsh and blunt, but it is also reality.

    Darris C.

  14. #14
    OptiWizard Jim G has a spectacular aura about Jim G has a spectacular aura about
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    Schizophrenia. Def: Any of a group of psychotic disorders usually characterized by withdrawal from reality, illogical patterns of thinking, delusions, and hallucinations, and accompanied in varying degrees by other emotional, behavioral, or intellectual disturbances. Schizophrenia is associated with dopamine imbalances in the brain and defects of the frontal lobe and is caused by genetic, other biological, and psychosocial factors.

    Acute mental disorders are physical. Schizo's don't "think" the way "normal" people do. To believe that a true schiz has "logical" control over their thots and actions denies reality (isn't that a symptom of schizophrenia).

  15. #15
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol's Avatar
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    I'm going to go against the grain here. This woman is undoubtedly mentally ill. Put her away for life - obviously! Make sure she can never have children again - absolutely!

    But I have strong moral objections about putting people to death who have a mental disease that keeps them from thinking and acting rationally. If she is truly schizophrenic, then I believe it would be wrong to execute her - no matter how horrific her crime.

    Just my $0.02 (or $0.365 Canadian)


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  16. #16
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute
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    I agree with you, Steve. I'm also curious about the extent of her medical care. Who decided to stop/change her medical treatment? Was it her doctor or her medical plan's accountant? I have a very personal understanding of how deeply even mild depression can affect your life, your perceptions and reactions, and how even those you love the most can fail to grasp its impact. The depression that developed following the birth of my daughter more than 20 years ago, deepened after the birth of my son 5 years later and went undiagnosed for another 9 years. I was advised by my doctors to "change my lifestyle" or to "develop a more positive outlook". I don't know what finally prompted me to seek a mental health professional, but the team I chose helped me save my own life.
    While I am not philosophically opposed to the death penalty, I belive that in this case, it simply isn't warranted. Killing her won't bring back the children or ease her grief, nor will it lessen the agony of her family.

  17. #17
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    Judy,
    Here's an article about her medical treatment and current mental state:

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Texas mother said to be suffering from postpartum depression and who confessed to drowning her five children in a bathtub is in a ``deep psychotic state'' and on 24-hour suicide watch in jail, said her lawyer on Monday.

    George Parnham, attorney for 36-year-old Andrea Yates, said he had seen his client over the weekend at the Harris County Jail where she has been held since the murders last Wednesday.

    ``She is in a very deep psychotic state. She is being cared for very, very well by mental health professionals in a jail facility and is obviously heavily medicated ... and is on a 24-hour suicide watch,'' Parnham told ABC's ``Good Morning America'' program.

    Parnham said he had not yet been able to have a rational conversation with his client.

    ``I anticipate that eventually the medication she is on will kick in and there will be some ability to have a rational conversation with her. That moment in time has not yet arrived,'' he said.

    Yates, he said, had been under psychiatric care for some time, adding that he was studying her medical history closely before deciding to proceed with a defense of insanity.

    Prosecutors have not yet decided whether to pursue the death penalty against Yates, but legal experts say they could have difficulty doing this if her husband opposes it, as he has done so far.

    TAKING MEDICATION IN RECENT YEARS

    The husband, NASA (news - web sites) computer engineer Russell Yates, has said his wife suffered from severe postpartum depression and had taken anti-depressant and anti-psychotic medication in recent years.

    According to newspaper reports, Yates told police she drowned her children one by one and chased her oldest son around the house before wrestling him into the water to kill him.

    The children, four boys and a girl, ranged in age from 6 months to 7 years. A joint funeral is scheduled to be held in a Houston area church on Wednesday.

    Parnham said it was important to remember that tragedies of this magnitude did not happen in a vacuum.

    ``This is not a situation where a husband and wife sit at a the breakfast table, kiss each other goodbye, he goes off to work, she has a cup of coffee and then decides that it is time to drown the kids. There is a progressive disease that in my estimation is evidenced by actions that happened in the past ... that led to this tragic event,'' Parnham said.

    The woman's husband saw her in jail this weekend in a meeting her lawyer said was ``as intense, as private and as heart-rendering as any meeting between two individuals that I have ever witnessed.''

    Parnham said Russell Yates was very supportive of his wife. ''He is taking this on as his own personal responsibility. I applaud him for that. He and the remainder of the family love this woman and are very, very supportive of my efforts to defend her,'' he said.

  18. #18
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute CuriousCat has a reputation beyond repute
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    Cindy,
    I watched that GMA interview, also. According to your first post, her medication/treatment had been changed. I can't help but think that there is much more to this tragedy than we'll ever know. However, my experience has been that mental health issues and especially womens mental health issues are given short shrift by most practicing physicians of either gender.
    It is a sad commentary on our times.

  19. #19
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless will become famous soon enough Darris Chambless will become famous soon enough Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Hello Steve and Judy,

    While I agree there are circumstances that need to be addressed by mental health proffesionals (and I use the term "professionals" loosely) this is not one of those cases. Opposed or not to the death penalty this crime warrants death.

    I'm not trying to change your mind here, but let's try this little scenerio on for size:

    We all have this little voice inside our heads that tells us the difference between right and wrong. It's called our conscience. Our conscience tells us that even if we can't stand our boss, we cannot kill him with a pointed stick through the skull. That wouldn't be right and it would be harmful to others. Our conscience tells us that we can't walk into a public place and start hosing it down with an AK-47. Like wise our conscience would tell us that we could not take our children one by one a methodically drown them in our own bath tub.

    With that said let's reverse the rolls the people played in this situation. What if this women walked into a McDonalds and shot and killed five children (not her own)? Would you see it the same then? After all she might still be just as "sick" but she wasn't the childrens parent so would she warrant the same kind of support. I believe that everyone would be sitting around condemning her without a thought for her "illness." She would be considered a monster. BUT by virtue of her being the childrens mother some feel that it is such a bizarre case that it warrants "studying." After all "How could a mother possibly kill her own children? Her own flesh and blood that she carried in her womb for nine months? She must really be sick and we need to find out why" What good will it do? It won't bring the children back nor will it make her any better.

    So does that mean that everyone that thinks outside the norm of what's acceptable in society is "sick" and in need of some compassion? Murders, drug dealers, sex offenders? They're "sick" as well, aren't they? So they should all be given the benefit of the doubt? As I said before if it were my wife, I would be the one going to prison for having killed her the moment I got on the scene, cops or no cops. My rational? She took the lives of our helpless children and is dead to me anyway. In order to keep her from ever doing this again I, the person that knew her best, would remove her from the gene pool. That would be my duty to my children (dead or alive) as their father.

    I care about my children too much not to push for the death penalty. I think that the husband is just as sick for standing by his wife. Will it stop the pian or bring the children back? No. An eye for an eye is the way it has been and always should be. What better deterant than death to make poeple take a little more responsibility for their actions. When you make someone a victim it gives all that follow and out. This woman was not a victim, the children were the victims. This woman was the perpetrator.

    To my dearest Judy,

    There is a big difference between aflicted with depression and being psycho. A really BIG difference. You are a wonderful person and as I've already said there are situation that warrant looking into by mental health proffesionals, but in your case your little voice obviously worked or you wouldn't still be here. My brother suffers from depression and is on medication for it and has his good days and bad days. I've had several friends that suffered from depression and were hospitalized for it, put on medications and turned loose after an alotted time. The interesting thing is two of them got out of the hospital, looked at themselves in the mirror, told themselves to straighten up and fly right, quit taking their medication and turned themselves around and are doing fine. Two others got out, kept taking the medication as prescribed, went to regular counciling meeting and then attempted suicide, one was successful at it. A person either wants to get well or doesn't. Those that don't are useless and will always be "victims."

    Who better to solve the mental problems in ones own mind than ones own self? The guy or gal that gets paid $100.00 dollars an hour to ask you the same repettive question of "...And how does that make you feel?" isn't doing squat for those that don't want to get well and those that it does help could have done it on their own anyway.

    If you want something fun to do that will take up alot of spare time try this; find me a psychologist or psychiatrist that hasn't suffered a nevrvous break down or that isn't self medicating. Then look back a little further and find out when the problems began. I can answer the last question for you; It all started after Psych 101 in college. It may sound like I'm being funny here, but I'm not. I'm as serious as I can be. Once you've done this you just might start rethinking the curing ability of those "mental health professionals." One last thing to think about along those lines is, why do mental health professionals proscribe depressants for people with depression? Think about that for a minute. Also if you asked a psychologist or psychiatrist how many people in the US suffer from depression they would tell you 95%. Do you know why? Because everyone gets depressed from time to time so what they're saying is true but slanted. To them everyone needs clinical help at some point

    Remember I'm not jumping on you at all here. I'm telling you that you are a strong woman and have more control over what you do than you may think. The professionals that you've seen simply told you what you already knew. You put it best when you said "but the team I chose helped me save my own life." Emphasis on the words "I" "me" and "my own." YOU chose them they didn't choose you. YOU saved YOUR own life (capitals for emphasis, not yelling) They gave you guidance by telling you what you already knew. You saved yourself, Judy. You wanted to get better and so you did. You have a conscience that will guide you to where you need to be for yourself and your family.

    To my dear friend Steve,

    Murder is a death penalty in and of itself, it is simply not administered by the legal system. Morally speaking does that not carry the same objections to you? Morally speaking if your life or the lives of others were in immediate danger and you could get rid of that danger by administering your own death penalty would you not take the opportunity? Or would you let yourself or others die because of moral convictions? If you could let others die because of moral convictions could you live with yourself after that knowing you could have prevented it? I ask these questions because it's easy to sit back and "think" of what one would do in these situations when one is so far removed from it, but if it is "in your face" so to speak how would it change? I've seen many people that have been against the death penalty change their mind in a big hurry when it affected their lives or the lives of family members that fell victim to a perpetrator.

    So in closing if it were you, your wife and your children can you honestly say that you would do the same as the husband of this woman? We are human and we harbor the instint to survive and protect our family from harm void of compassion. In otherwords "He who hesitates dies." The husband hesitated on more than one occasion and his family died, plain and simply. Would you be that man?

    My last note is this; your beliefs are your beliefs as are mine, but there is only one cure for murder and that is death. Be it harsh or blunt, it's justified.

    Sorry to be such a stick in the mud, but I would never stand by like this loser and support my child killing wife. I'm just not built that way.

    Take care,

    Darris C.

  20. #20
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Darris,

    All I can say is that I disagree that mentally-ill people should be put to death and I'll leave it at that!


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  21. #21
    sub specie aeternitas Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin has much to be proud of Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Should she be executed? That's a tough one (even though I have absolutely no problem with the concept of capital punishment). I think the question comes down to whether or not she understood that she was killing her children.

    From all reports, it seems to me that she understood she had killed her children. Whether or not she did so from a delusional sense of failure or not makes no difference at that point. So she felt the kids were "defective?" Okay, so if I feel like my son isn't tall enough and I kill him I shouldn't be put to death because in fact my son is a relatively normal size for his age???

    Who cares why she thought it was okay to kill? She chose to kill! Now, if she thought that by holding their heads under water they wouldn't die, but the evil spirits in them would be driven out or something, then you have room for doubt concerning her motives. As it stands, however, we aren't dealing with someone who is incapable of understanding their own actions. If and when she is put to death, she will fully understand why she is being put to death.

    Referring back to my earlier argument about punishment vs. justice... There is no point in "punishing" this person. Punishment is only good when you want to reform or cause a change in behavior. This person is never going to be readmitted to society (I sure as heck hope not, anyway, seeing how she can logically justify murder to herself). Therefore, the just thing to do is to end her existence.

    Sum- we're not talking about someone who didn't understand what they were doing. How are you supposed to teach someone that it is NOT okay to murder people because you feel bad?

    Pete
    PS- What does "mentally ill" mean? I think it means you don't understand your own actions or the consequences of them...
    Last edited by Pete Hanlin; 06-27-2001 at 02:18 PM.

  22. #22
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless will become famous soon enough Darris Chambless will become famous soon enough Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Steve,

    I admire your conviction and mean no disrespect. My point is more this: Anyone that commits a violent crime (or non-violent crime for that matter) would qualify as mentally ill. Their thought processes would be such that they weren't thinking straight at the time the crime took place. This would be obvious due to the fact that they committed the crime in the first place. The same as all violent crimes are "hate crimes." That's my point.

    Darris C.

  23. #23
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Thanks Darris. I understood your point, and it does make sense on one level. However I personally think there's a big difference between someone who commits murder during a robbery or in the heat of an argument, and someone who is truly mentally and physically unbalanced and doesn't comprehend right from worng and the consequences of their actions.

    It is, admittedly, sometimes a very fine line. However I think that life is so precious that, as a civilzed society, we must be extremely cautious before putting anyone to death.


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    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin will become famous soon enough Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    Another Wrinkle...

    Remember John Hinckley, who shot Ronald Reagan? Who did so because he was mentally ill and wanted to impress Jody Foster? Well he was committed to a mental health facility for "life" and was recently called "not a threat to society" and released. Life became 20 or so years. As in all instances due to overcrowding in prisons it is inevitable that people who do horrific crimes will end up free one day.

    We must draw the line. We must make sure we protect society's weakest members, our children. Our children are our future and deserve the right to grow and embrace their potential. NOBODY has the right to take that away for whatever the reason or excuse. I would hope Hell would have a place for those people different from the torment of others.

    We must make sure this stops. I think the insanity defense if becoming a catch all! Maybe if we get tough we will make this excuse for evil go away!

    P.S. Darris I agree with you completely! Steve and Judy I respect your feelings and beliefs, but feel at this place we must agree to disagree!

    ~Cindy

  25. #25
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol has a brilliant future Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Well for the record I never said it was all right to release John Hinckley or anyone sentenced to life. That is certainly a flaw in our system. I just don't think resorting to execution is the best way to correct such a flaw however.

    In my view, an even bigger flaw is executing people who are innocent of the crimes of which they were convicted. In the last three years, 89 death row inmates have been shown to be innocent through DNA testing and were released from prison. It would have been a tragic mistake to kill any one of these men. Because of this, I believe we need to be extremely cautious before resorting to executions.

    That's not to say there aren't people who deserve to die for what they've done. But because of the irreversible nature of this punishment, we need to make very sure that we're killing the right ones!

    P.S. I'm sure you'll all be happy to know that my wife disagrees with my views on capital punshment and is more likely to agree with most of the views expressed here. I've learned to sleep with one eye open because of this!


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