Doc..........As I can see you just made a silent and careful entrance. :finger:Originally Posted by DocInChina
Sneakin in...............
Doc..........As I can see you just made a silent and careful entrance. :finger:
I opted to post on your other, potentially less explosive thread where you discussed the dark econimic clouds hanging over us. :hammer:
Quality, quality, quality! In the past I have purchased fashion jewelley from China and the big problem I have is the quality of the product that is returned. Out of the three manufacturers that we have dealt with in the past one wasn't so good, one was okay and one was just better than okay.
In other words none of them were really to the standard that were after. The goods were just poorly made - beads weren't glued in properly and would fall out, the metal chains weren't finished properly, you could see glue marks around some of the stones and so on.
I would say that about 1 in 10 items were of poor quality and couldn't be sold but we would just factor that into our costs.
The manufacturing culture is very different between China and the US / Europe.
In the US and in Europe vendors are product driven. Build a line and bring it to market finding distribution channels to sell it. US / European vendors stock inventory for sale in North America.
In China vendors are market driven. Find a customer (distributor or mass retail) and build what the customers wants to the customers specifications. Chinese vendors do not stock inventory for sale in North America. They build it to order.
This is a very significant business cultural difference. Much of this was caused by a lack of access to working capital in China in an earlier time.
There is also an advantage in J.I.T. inventory. No longer can anyone keep inventory lying around waiting for someone to order it. To succeed today you must be “lean.” Typical immerging manufacturing economies are hungry. They do produce some substandard goods at first but they learn real fast. One of the reasons that most goods are manufactured overseas is that we in the US are no longer “hungry.” Our worker production has suffered to the point where we can’t compete.
Read about W. Edwards Demming and you will gain an understanding of the global manufacturing environment that his early work in statistical quality control brought about.
I am looking for a zyl or acetate frame manufacturer. Please let me know if you could provide a product for my line.
Sires
It really gets under my skin - that some in a position of power - chooses to carry these made in china products - when will it ever stop- I KNOW NEVER - the almighty dollar - is always 1st - and
1- giving $ to a communist country is always pushed way in the back of some folks heads -
( i do not understand why those driving this so called open trade - does not have a issue with this alone - and try to do everything in their power to not buy from COMMUNIST CHINA - hell these folks are the ones that will call it "The peoples rebublic of China " is that not a joke or what ? Call it what it is - and be honest with yourselfs
2- AS most of us seen - Qualitly - and product safety is not a concern to those manufacturing in China - or deciding to move their manufacturing over seas there - " CAN anyone say - " can u pls add a little lead paint to those for me free of charge - "" ?
Look at Mattel - alone - THESE FOLKS ARE MARKETING TO OUR KIDS - and they have the nerve to say - " OH it is an error - however we have safe guards in place to prevent this - " Well hate to inform you - but you had these so called safe guards in place before - and they didnt work - but knwo we are lead to believe that something has changed - ?
3- MIddle class Americans also love that rock bottom price now - however i think it is because we have been forced to so that we can get by and raise our families - and they should just change the name of " LEts say walmart "
to CHINA MARKET " ? -
4- I think they should push laws - punishing these USA companys' for supportign china - and lining their pockets with our $ - Look at what the ISP have done in regards to being in bed with the Communist goverment in china - ? They take part in helping sensor info - and have even been involved in turning folks in china into the goverment - I THINK these folks here operating in the USA - shoudl be held resposible - and face jail time here - for activities such as these -
Now they will say - that they are helping to open up china - and that something is better then nothing - however this is what they say - so they can sleep better at night - it is just wrong to be an american - and particpate in this -
4- I can just go on and on - siince i have seen us get shafted time and time again - from the Chnse goverment subst. the trade - and changing the value of the $ - to best suit them - IT Is time - to put a HUGE tax of CHINESE GOODS - ON EVERYTHING !! say 30-40 % - and just wait and see how things change - i know it will be hard on everyone - however - something must be done - THIS SIT BACK AND WAIT - taht we do time and again - and get shafted year after year must stop -
5- some of these execs rationalize this somehow - but we all know - they have Worker rights that are not enforced - they have children working - their childhoods away - and they coudl care less about providing a safe product - or create a atmosphere - that protects the world from their toxic manufacturing activities - ( look alone - at the upcoming olymics - they are debating if they have to change the location - since the air is so unhealthy there - and the smog - is so bad - that the athletes may not even be safe -
not to mention - how the goverment - it roudign up many - and throwing them out of the city - because they are lets say "cleaning house - " -
It must start with each person alone - to make a choice - of what is right and wrong - and live my our values - and choices !
Just my thoughts -
I thought Communist China is long gone.......
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/bu...in&oref=slogin
That's right folks you can now purchase into a hedge fund that helps China catch and punish pro democracy in the country. Yeah let's spread democracy. :hammer:
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Importer pays and orders lesser quality....................
Fester..............for that one blsme your importer or brand name holder supplier.
They order the frames to specifications and if the want to make The just order a step down tha ladder.
Nice post. It would be nice to be able to support American manufacturing, if there was such a thing anymore.
What is your choice - of what is right and wrong?
How many American frames did you dispense this week?
What's your choice?
Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry
as i stated before - i understand how tuff it is -and realistic - not to use china frames - and maybe i came across the wrong way - since i understand we all must take soem of this trash - to meet our customers expectation _ ( or lack of ) ---
However - I am not saying everythign must be made in the USA - however if we can do WHATEVER we can to buy and sell things made ANYWHERE - BUT CHINA - or those other countries that have such a negitive effect on our good old USA _ it is a good thing -
And as what is right and wrong - what is wrong is supportign a Communist country that has us "" BY THE B***s "" - and that utilizes CHILD SLAVE LABOR - and has no ENFORCED laws on Peoples rights - or enviromental concerns -
as for the comment above - about - not being Communist China " -- are you SERIOUS ?? or was this a sly remark ? I just don't understand why there is the shift from call it what it is - a COMMUNIST country -
the best is the " Peoples Rebublic of china "" - LOL -
You are so seriously misinformed that it truly is mind boggling. You are buying from companies who employ people. The companies pay tax dollars to their government who then reinvests the tax dollars back into their infrastructure. I am not aware of any state sponsored use of child slave labor.
The government is active in promoting workers rights and saftey. Does that mean abuses do not exist? Of course not. Even in the US we have had problems with the treatment, pay and work environment fo workers. Time and growth will take care of these things just as time and growth raised the US labor force into one of the highst pad in the world.
Last edited by DocInChina; 09-16-2007 at 07:34 PM.
I would love to hear any info - based on the other side - ( CHina's Side )- so i can weigh the info - and see if my views change -
I have read - many reports - and not on any left or right wing sites - but i look at a wide array or reports - both USA reports and world reports -
ANd i have seen over and over -
That the chineese subst. its exports - and therefore under value their currency - ( now not just a little - HUGE amounts -that the rest of the rest of the world ( esp USA ) - can NEVER COMPETE !! The chinese feels FREE trade - is somethign totally differant then the americans - ( I feel the usa goverment is not conveying the will of the poeple here - and we as the USA should do - to call them on the currency malnipulation - and make a level playing field - YOU CAN NOT EVEN say the playing field is on the LEVEL - CAN YOU ??
2- YOu feel a communist goverment is a good thing ? are you telling me i am confused about this - ? Why is it that folks don't call it what it is ? A 1 party system - ( WELL some will say there are more then 1 party - however lets say " 1 party that counts for anything !! I thought we as americans ( or any democratic society for that matter - should promote dem. goverment - ? the chinisese goverment - although may not be a dictatorship - such as Castro's cuba - our buddy chavez in S. america - iur little Buddy in N-Korea Little KIM - Saddam - when in power - and many other dictators they are all in the same boat - they are running communsit goverment - by keeping those in line - and not free to do and change what they want to -
AM I Worng about a 1 party system - ? how can change happen - and furthermore - Would LOVE to hear - that the Chienese goverment - allows their people OPEN ACCESS to INFORMATION from the world ? are their any Priv. News papers there ? are you telling me that the news reports (( OVER AND OVER ) - on jurnalists imprisoned for conspys charges - or speaking out on the goverment - aare not true ? or are the reports about the goverment - filtering info - to their people a GOOD thing - or even close to BEING THE CORRECT WAY ABOUT going about day to day ?
and 3 - LABOR LAWS --- YOU are telling me that the labor laws in China are for the WORKER ????? YOU MEAN TO TELL ME I AM MISTAKEN ON THE CHILD LABOR ABUSES ? I have a hard time believing that labor laws strong for the worker - can u enlighten me on this ?
And can i be corrected on the enviroment issue - Are the reports on the manufacturing enviromental issues un true - ? or over stated ? I saw several reports on violations - as well as the Olympic concernes about the poor air quality as well as the concern that the food can not be CERTIFIED to be safe - so they are actually planning on importing the food for it -
Look at the Fish farms there - alone - and how unhealthy they are - the pollution is out of control - and it appears that they are not to gun ho to correct these issues - and what part of
THE USA does not tolerate or accept lead don't these manufacturers understand - ? It seems that there are excuses after excuses - when it just comes down to - them trying to save $ - and put our kids in danger - and there is no excuse for it - none
Like i said - i AM OPEN minded - and would love to really hear - how these things are either untrue - or EVEN JUSTIFIED in some MINDS - I am not saying it is all BIG BAD china's fault - because our USA goverment is at fault for allowing these trade deals to happen - and continue to happen - but the civil rights violations - as well as the SENSORSHIP to their people - i can not see how anyone can say it is OK ? ? and shoudl be tolerated -
pls - if you can inform me - differantly - i would love to learn about it - and understand it better - but the justification that it is "better then it was " or things are differant now - but not there yet - just won't be enough for me - to tolerate any of this behavior by the goverment - -
As long as the paint is leaded, I'm happy :)
DocInChina: <<You are so seriously misinformed that it truly is mind boggling. You are buying from companies who employ people. The companies pay tax dollars to their government who then reinvests the tax dollars back into their infrastructure. I am not aware of any state sponsored use of child slave labor.
The government is active in promoting workers rights and saftey. Does that mean abuses do not exist? Of course not. Even in the US we have had problems with the treatment, pay and work environment fo workers. Time and growth will take care of these things just as time and growth raised the US labor force into one of the highst pad in the world.>>
Doc's comments are very consistent with my observations. The changes in Chinese factories in the past 10 years is amazing. Do some advance faster than others? Of course. Are some below European/US standards? Yes. Are some of the best and most modern frame factories in the world in China? Yes.
I love talking to college students in China. Had a great conversation several years ago. I asked about the communist party. He laughed - there is a communist party but no communists. It is all about getting rich. The party is all business today.
Look at the skyline of Shenzhen, Shanghai, Nanjing where I've been a lot and more importantly get stuck in traffic jams. And even the Hard Rock Cafe in Shanghai was closed. Now Gucci, Prada, yada yada yada shops and packed with people. I miss their BLT sandwich. But no big problem a Pizza Hut down the street.
China is evolving just as the US did in the early days. Do bad things happen? They sure do. But did here too. Is it an excuse? No. Is it reality? Yes. Industrialization and evolution of capitalism is not a pretty process.
Mine, too. The best way for the United States and Canada to bring about positive political, social, economic, and environmental change in China is to continue to trade with them. Refusing to trade with China would do nothing to change their system of government, yet it would certainly end up harming the Chinese people.
NOT PULL OUT --- BUT LEVEL OUT !!!!!
I to believe that cutting china off totally - will bring nothing good - however - do you really think KEEPING things as status Quoe - is also benifitting anyone - but the chin.. goverment - and those brokers - there for the dollar
THIS WAIT AND SEE APPROACH that some feel ""SHOULD WORK " - shoudl open their eyes - and see after over 10 plus years of outsoarcing to them - it has had little effect - except loosing millions of manufacturing jobs - and destroying towns here in the usa -
NO - I don't think we shoudl cut them off - however - YES I feel we need to wake up - and put some tarrifs on their goods so that other manufacturing COUNTRIES CAN COMPETE - isn't that what it shoudl all be about - ?? being on a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD ? -
There is no way to tell me that we are on a level playing field - with china -
can u ?
look at how they are going to be importing their new line of cars ( which i might add - recently featured in many publications will not the safest car on the streets - but we are aloowing them - and Crysler ( by name only ) - to import these cars thru mexico - and not have to pay the import tax on them - NOw this should really put chicago over the edge ?
But oh ya - some of us are more concerned about how china may react - or how it will effect those in Bejing-
I just feel that we need to finally take control of this outragous FREE TRADE deals - that hurt the US midldle class over and over -
Put some tariffs? What an easy solution? God bless you if you really think so. US consumer can always pay a little bit more to buy Chinese products trans-shipped from "other manufacturing countries". Ops....isn't that stupid?
First of all, why do you want to compete with China in its low value added, labor intensive, no-brain works?
US is surely not on level playing field with China because US people, US government policies, US society are losing competitiveness! When China is investing in education, building infrastructures, US is spending money and life in Iraq! Imagine the money and efforts spent in Iraq(and future budgets too) were instead put in education, science, research and for the betterment of US people, you won't worry about China manufacturing so many stuff, so cheaply.......because you have better things to sell to China and other places.
Talking about cars, China is not only about ready to export cars but it's also producing mid size commercial planes. Rather than worrying what China will be exporting to US and create more job losses, you should worry if you kids are in school studying science and engineering, and not listening to those politicians and send your kids to Iraq!
Lak Cheong
www.freeformeyewear.com
Well, I do have a couple of Ronsirs on the board.:D
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
It has been 18 years since the Tiananmen Square massacre. 18 years! How many years of trade do you think it will take?
I have no idea. How do you think that refusing to trade with China would make the world a better place?
refusing to trade with China ...................
You are way too late with that idea..............missed the boat.......................
In our industry your admired suppliers, the major corporations have made the decision for you a few years ago.
They moved their plants to China and some other far east countries and you have been dispensing Chinese products for years while still believing that they came from Italy, Germany and France. China has become you major supplier for the optical industry.
The major corporations have been purchasing their products for years in China but not sold them to you at lower prices, but cashed in huge profits which they are using to compete with in you territory, the lab and the retail end.
Essilor owning directly or indirectly a large number of optical labs, so does Zeiss and Hoya. All of them are selling you chinese and other far eastern countries products, and they are accepted as premium products.
Luxottica has made the first step using the huge profits made with chinese made products, again on which they do not pass along the cheaper cost, to gobble up retail chains and stores. They just announced recently the purchase of Oakley Inc. for $ 2.1 billion.
All this with money made from so called premium frames made in China.
Zeiss has announced the opening of 1000 optical retail stores in India, another sign monetary power, probably gained from products made at extremely low prices in China and the far east, but sold at prices as if they would be made in Germany.
Also the location of these 1000 stores, India, would not upset optical retailers in other parts of the world. However any manufacturer that starts such a journey has further ambitions to expand.
Again the Chinese and other far east countries have contributed to this new trend.
The next evolving country that will compete with China is India, which also has a huge population is India. In the optical field the makor corporations have already made their moves. Essilor has already taken over some of the large well known labs and the others are moving in their own speed.
Conclusion:
You can not refuse to trade with China, They have the machines to make the product you need. Your fellow american manufacturers have moved their factories and machinery to China. China is today your only choice to produce the products you need to make a living, be it premium or chunk as you call it.
Actually.... the US government does have the power to restrict trade with China should it so desire.
the US government does have the power .............................
You are right..................the US government has that power.
But if it does exercise exercise it China will want to cash the US government bonds it owns..............which would put the US instantly into chapter 11 conditions.
The US is spending their money in Iraq these days:
Iraq War Results & Statistics as of Sept 12, 2007
US SPENDING IN IRAQ
Spent & Approved War-Spending - About $600 billion of US taxpayers' funds. President Bush is expected to request another $200 billion for 2008, which would bring the cumulative total to close to $800 billion.
U.S. Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion, in 2007
U.S. Daily Spending in Iraq - over $200 million, in 2007
Cost of deploying one U.S. soldier for one year in Iraq - $390,000 (Congressional Research Service) Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors
See whole story at: http://usliberals.about.com/od/homel...raqNumbers.htm
I don't think the US government has the commercial guts or the money these days to take on the Chinese with trade restrictions and then wait for a reaction. China could afford to boycott shipments to the USA in which case your Home Depots...........WalMarts........Costcos and many more would run out of stock that could not be replaced from anywhere else.
The hand that feeds you with merchandise can also bite you by withholding it.
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