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Thread: The Future of Independent Wholesale Labs?

  1. #1
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    The Future of Independent Wholesale Labs?

    A while back Don Barber of Tech-Cite Laboratories suggested we have a topic discussing the current state and future of independent wholesale labs. I think this is a great topic and would like to open this up for discussion.

    There's no doubt the the Wholesale lab environment has undegone radical changes over the last few years, particularly in the U.S. and Canada. The Essilor decision to acquire labs in North America was a bold and risky move which has brought significant change, not only to the wholesale business itself, but to the optical industry in general. Along with Hoya's recent acquisitions and Zeiss' continuing gains in the AR lab market, the wholesale industry is being transformed and consolidated. What do these changes mean both for the industry as a whole, and for the remaining independent labs?

    In addition to the changes in the business environment, there's significant change on the lab floor as well. The advent of robotics and increasing computerization of lab processes have altered the skill requirements in the lab itself. Does this make the skilled Lab Optician less important than in years past?

    One can legitimately argue the the rate of change in the Wholesale labs is far greater than in any other aspect of our industry. Given this, I'm surprised this topic hasn't been brought up before now.

    So what do you think? Is there a future for the Indendent Wholesale Lab? And what do you think these changes mean for the industry?


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    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: The Future of Independent Wholesale Labs?

    Originally posted by Steve Machol
    The advent of robotics and increasing computerization of lab processes have altered the skill requirements in the lab itself. Does this make the skilled Lab Optician less important than in years past?

    I will answer this one point for now (due out soon)
    NO
    There will always be the need for Fully Skilled Lab staff no matter how advanced the robotics or computer programs are as at the end of the day in this trade its how the product looks when finished that counts, can a computr or robot do this yet ? Sure a laying off program can work out the maths of the job but its reliant on information fed into it miss a bit out and opps its wrong, and got to be done again.
    Robotics is another matter sure they are great for mass production of lenses within a range but could they handle making a lentic or working bi-convex or bi-concave ?
    I belive that at the end of the day while there a people out there who need that perscription that you look at and say Ahhh we will still be needed !!

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    OptiWizard
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    Will independent labs continue? Gad! I hope so as I are one.

    We ask ourselves that question with some regularity and, I believe for the near future at least, we're safe. That doesn't mean that we'll look at all like we do today.

    The retail optical industry is extremely fragmented with somewhere around 36,000 store-fronts. In 1980, the Independent sector had about 88% of the market with the integrated chains holding about 10%. The rest was 3rd party and government. By 1990, the big chains had grown to about 36% and the independents were down to about 60% and most of us were crying, "The Sky is Falling!" Interestingly, by 2000, those chains had only grown to about 38-39% (the big threat in the 90"s was 3rd party) and the independent sector pretty much held it's own with about 55-56%.

    Obviously, had that trend continued, all we independents--lab and retail--would soon be out of business. Why the change? I'd submit that for the most part, consumers made a choice whether they were going to purchase eyewear as a "commercial" transaction or a "medical" model. In the first, the consumer is looking for convenience (definitely there), (perceived better) selection and (perceived) lower prices.

    The medical purchase, on the other hand, is based upon going back to ol' Doc for their refraction. They expect continuity, professionalism, communications, quality and technology. Apparently there are enuf of you out there still doing that.

    Part of the independent "solution" is that we can provide all that. Dispensers using independent labs can reject a job--5 times if necessary. Would that happen in an integrated chain? Dispensers have access to over 50 commonly used, and over a 100 in total, PAL's; one will be the perfect solution for the patient. Most labs also have much more forgiving warranties than the integrated chains to protect their retail customers.

    Independent dispensers--in partnership with their lab--can CHOOSE from a plethora of solutions for their patients . Can--will--an integrated chain do this? Dispensers can CHOOSE the AR coating they have found that consistently has the BEST quality. Independent dispensers know that their livelyhood, heck, their future, is in providing the best absolute solution for their patients and therefore have a vested interest in learning and using new technologies.

    As long as we reinforce those values, we'll be around.

    Now, from a labs view. We expect some continued consolidation. Essilor is close to the maximum allowed by the FTC. Hoya will have trouble growing too much more as most of the larger and better labs left independent are Varilux distributors and Hoya now knows the risk of buying a Vx lab.

    Technology will, however, continue to have a huge effect on us. With all due respect to John R., the skills in a lab have shifted significantly. For the most part, a surfacing otician is not much more tham a machine operator. Today, computer entry, customer service and finish are the technical positions. Casting will have some influence, either by retailers trying to do their own or labs finding the process more cost effective. 3-axis single-point diamond lathing will also allow us to individualize a prescription to the optimal optical needs of the patient however, those guys are really expensive and possibly not available to the smaller labs.

    But, what the hell do I care? I'm retiring at the end of the year.

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    opti-tipster harry a saake's Avatar
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    Question future of wholesalw labs

    Steve, i,m glad you brought this subject up. As you know several times on this board i have posted my thoughts that within 20 years from now or less, we will not know labs as we know them now. just about everything made will be made molded.
    I just came back from a trip to Florida, where i was able to see my good old buddy Phil Latchman, who has been with Silor/Essilor for years. This very subject happen to come up and in Phils view, this is going to happen a lot quicker, maybe 5 to 10 years.
    There are many compelling reasons to go this route, from the standpoint of cost, effiency,enviormentally friendly and much more accurate.
    One only has to take a look at what is already being molded and it is not hard to imagine that there is not to much you cant mold. As i stated in another post one time, one of the best pair of lenses i ever wore was a pair of golden photochromatics, that was molded by a company out in Oklahoma.
    To sum up, over the 36 years that i have been in this business we have had constant change, and as far as the lenses and frames go all for the better. For some of the newcomers this may be hard to understand if you never had to deal with some of the old products.
    Once again as i have stated before in a post, in 1969 while with B&L, i suggested we put all the facts and figures into a computer, instead of using the old hand charts to find the ct. They thought that was the funniest thing they ever heard. Anyone in a lab now not using a computer.
    In ending the change is inevitable, learn to deal with it and go with it as it will be for the better.

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    Lab Consolidation

    I hope that it doesn't do for the optical business what it has done for the contact lens business. Contact lens labs used to be small independent labs that could be counted upon to respond to your needs. If a blind without lenses aphake lost a lens you could get some one to stay late and see the job got out. You might have to cuss and buy someone a beer later, Now you can't even find anyone high enough up in the company to complain to. Indeed for the most part you can not deal with anyone above the "duh" level for filling out computerized order froms.

    The fits, care regimens etc. are dictated by laboratories, and they can hide behind not haveing FDA approval for anything they don't want to tell you. In some ways the technology is better, in some ways (such as specialty items) it has disappeared.

    Sometimes I think we are headed toward a society like that in Roller~Ball (my favorite sport by the way).

    Chip

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    Master OptiBoarder Shwing's Avatar
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    Re: Lab Consolidation

    Originally posted by chip anderson
    Indeed for the most part you can not deal with anyone above the "duh" level for filling out computerized order froms.
    Chip
    Actually, on another note, "Doh" (as in Homer Simpsons' favorite phrase) has just this past week been added to the Oxford English Dictionary...

    For what it's worth.
    Shwing

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    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Originally posted by Jim G
    Technology will, however, continue to have a huge effect on us. With all due respect to John R., the skills in a lab have shifted significantly. For the most part, a surfacing otician is not much more tham a machine operator. Today, computer entry, customer service and finish are the technical positions.
    Yes i will agree that some of the skills have shifted, but anyone with good all round lab skills should be safe, You maybe be a machine operator for some part but when things arn't going right thats when you come into your own. Also this depends on how much new technology labs have invested in.


    Casting will have some influence, either by retailers trying to do their own or labs finding the process more cost effective.
    While it may be more cost effective to make lenses by casting in the long run (yet to be proved) dont forget. While retailers will find this route more appealing (looks good in store) Can the small inderpendent lab afford the investment in to this area, while the machines may be afforable what about all the moulds that will be needed to cover the oddball jobs which are the small labs life blood.


    3-axis single-point diamond lathing will also allow us to individualize a prescription to the optimal optical needs of the patient however, those guys are really expensive and possibly not available to the smaller labs.
    We use 2 of these now, but due to our set up they are not linked to the computers so each job has to be entered by hand.

    Which route do you prefer though?, casting or the 3 point machines as i feel that labs will have to choose one route rather than try to split there resources.
    I myself feel that wholesale labs will not (as Yet) go the casting route, as it has not really been tested to its full and is not suited to making large amonts of diffrent lenses.


    But, what the hell do I care? I'm retiring at the end of the year.
    I wish you well in your retirement you will have seen many changes in your time, mainly in the last 20 years. Who knows what lays ahead for those of us left....

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    Bad address email on file Susan Henault's Avatar
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    Wow, this subject matter is definitely thought provoking. Over the past 15 years I've held a variety of positions that either involved labs or heavily interfaced with independent labs. I have to agree with Steve's assessment that the WS lab portion of eye care (specifically delivery of hardware) has probably seen the most radical changes over the past 20 years, along with CL.

    I am really torn by the obvious benefits that an independent wholesale lab has to offer, and the benefits now available due to vertical integration of manufacturing and wholesale. I must qualify myself as currently employed by Hoya Optical Labs, although my employer was still independently owned and operated when I started with them. Needless to say, I have been on just about all sides of this issue in recent years.

    The independent lab gives the independent ECP a tremendous advantage over "chain" stores for many of the reasons previously stated. Primarily, the overwhelming lens selection offered by the independent lab allows the the ECP to "solve the visual problems" of each patient, versus simply "filling a prescription", like some (especially cheap) chain stores. Organizations like the OLA have helped labs establish themselves as valuable resources to their customers. The best labs provide much more than a lens.

    On the other hand, if you look at the way spectacle lens hardware is delivered in many world markets, the WS lab is vertically integrated with the manufacturer. I am not trying to start a battle by what I am about to say. I am simply expressing my opinion - which may aggravate some. It's just that from my personal experience, I believe the greatest benefit to vertical integration is having manufacturer quality coatings, tighter tolerances, and process technology at the wholesale lab level.

    It's not to suggest that we have reaped the full benefit of this here in the U.S. YET, but it has begun. I am amazed by the tooling, tolerances, process and coating technology (namely back side "cushion coat"), now available from some WS labs. I'll take it one step further and add that it is my opinion that these same benefits have contributed at least in part to the premium product sales in other markets far exceeding the U.S.

    For example, in the U.S. we have struggled over the years to get our A/R percentages in the double digits. We can point fingers and blame the doctors and dispensers -- but reality is that we haven't been able to provide our customers with blow your doors off consistency and quality in A/R until recent years. How could we? We have been coating dozens of substrates, all with different coatings (not to mention each lab's back side hard coat).

    The Zeiss owned labs in Europe coat Zeiss lenses with Zeiss coatings, Hoya owned labs in their respective markets coat Hoya lenses with Hoya coatings, and I'm sure the same holds true with Rodenstock, Sola, Essilor and others. The end result is a higher quality product with superior overall performance. I sincerely believe that this ultimately provides the end user (consumer) with a better product in terms of vision, cosmetics and durability.

    It is also my opinion that an in office (or in lab) "lens casting" system is not likely to ever produce the kind of quality I am talking about here. I just don't see how it could.

    So, to answer Steve's query, I think the independent wholesale lab definitely has a future here in the U.S. However, it will become more and more difficult to compete. If I were a lab owner, I would be extremely deliberate about which manufacturers I chose to support. It's tough when your "supplier" takes the profits made from your purchases, and uses them to compete against you.

    Also, I would definitely differentiate myself with premium SERVICE.
    Trying to compete on price is as insane as an independent OD, MD or LDO trying to compete with Costco, Walmart or Vista.

    Last but not least, I would work diligently to help my customers compete in the same way -- setting themselves apart with service, quality, warranties and visual problem solving.

    Susan (I hope I haven't torqued anyone off too much) Henault ;)

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    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    The "Flexible Fence" of Vertical Integration

    If the eyewear buyer (consumer) could sit in the balcony, look down below at all those optical guys, and pick out who was wholesale or was retail . . . he'd have a hard time. But, if the consumer in the balcony listended real close to the conversations going on, I believe sooner or later, there would emerge some conversations that might show lines of distinction. In some cases certain individuals might even be noticed floating across the lines and then moving back again. The fence would be there, but the participants would push the fence over and then it would slide back again.

    And, your point is, Alan . . . .

    My point is that those members of the supply-side of the industry who succesfully "partner" as part of the "service team" to the consumer, will be the most valued. Ultimately, I forecast that whether it is a chain of labs or independent, the leader will emerge as one that has formed a strong strategic alliance with the one who serves the consumer. I forecast that the independent lab owner will have to redifine himself in such a way that he will be IN the presence of the people who provide the point of service. Not just in the background as a supporting player. .

    IN the words of Jan Karlson, former President of SAS Airlines . .. "If you are not taking care of the customer, you better be taking care of the person who is."

    The solution will be in how the independent sees itself. Will it remain a service provider with an appearance similar to chain labs, or a manager of services to point of sale providers. There will be a difference as the fence flexes. The lab chains will be great mass providers. The independent labs , however, will have an opportunity, if they access mobility, miniaturization, change in technology, and franchise / replicate themselves (I don't mean be a Wendy's!) to be where chain labs can never be.

    From the balcony, one doesn't see the difference. But, down by the orchestra pit and the sections close to it, the close observer can tell that from the conversations, and who is sitting with who . . . there is still a fence between lab and point of service provider.

    In 1995 an attempt was made to lower or remove the fence in Houston. It probably would have created many new independent lab entrepreneurs if the existing ones weren't so resistent to change. . Funding was the problem. The source was just a little shy on foresight! But, after hours of negotiating and planning a plan came about that all parties believed in and agreed to. And, the plan would have allowed a lot of independent optical people at all levels to get a handle on 3rd party, cost management, production/technology enhancement, improved service to the consumer as well as point of sale provider, increased marketing capability, and profit enhancement. That's all I'm saying. After that . . , the meter is running!

    I believe the next frontier of opportunity for the optical industry will be at this level for a select few. A lot of people think I'm nuts. But, you watch and see. The future will be in the hands of those who will flex the fence even farther . .. or will take it down completely.

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    opti-tipster harry a saake's Avatar
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    Question

    :finger: Alan, i agree with you on what you posted. One of the inherent problems we have always had in this business is price. Price along with bad management was the demise of the old B&L labs, where i worked many years. Many times i can remember losing an acct over pennies. D-28 was 6.98 a pair, phone call from DR. X, i can get it from xyz labs for 6.78.
    However one important inherent fact remains is that price drives the market, thus this is where the casting systems are going to make there big move. These systems will eventually be just as good in a private practice, as in a wholesale lab, it,s just a matter of time.
    Then there is the issue of labor, which casting systems will also play a part in reducing costs as you will not need more then a machine operator. Proof, look at slaboffs, how long have they been available casted, and accurate also.
    Opticians sometimes are there own worst enemy, when it comes to price. My favorite example is the optician who sells a pair of glasses for 400.00, makes a couple of hundred gross profit, and then quibbles over the price of the eyeglass case.
    Change is inevitable, we have to learn to live with it, adapt to it and embrace it as the future is where we are going to live whether we like it or not.

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    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    Dead on, Harry

    Leave the baby for the bathwater.
    It's so old it isn't funny any more.
    Casting?
    Have we bypassed the independent lab already?
    Yes! But, the majority of independent lab people don't see it.
    They are being factored out of the marketing and service equation as we speak. Not necessary. But, happening anyway. That's the flexible fence of vertical integration NOT being flexed.
    In my previous posting I used the word franchise. I don't mean opening up franchised labs. I mean extending and replicating IN the point of service arena as a "partner". I don't mean legal partner. I mean participating partner.
    Who should have their arms around casting systems?
    The independent lab . . . not the retailer.
    But, I'll bet the old B & L mentality is still out there.
    Does anybody know what the relationship is between Vistakon and its mold makers?
    They are practically partners . . . .
    almost and in some cases right under their own roof.
    That's partnering with strategic alliance. It means nothing in the spectacle part of the industry.
    Independent labs can be very essential members . .. but have chosen to keep the fence up.
    In 1984 Dean BUtler, CEO of Lenscrafters, spoke to the California Optical Laboratory Association and told them then how to be "all that they can be." He offered to consult for free. They "boo'd" him out. My how the worm is turning!
    Bill Benedict (Benedict Optical) is trying to unite the independent as a counter move. He's a smart man. There's some other things going on. But, I have yet to see the "Monroe Doctrine" of the optical business change.
    The Monroe Doctrine is protectionism with selective exception. Essilor is doing just that. But, they are on OUR turf!!!!
    The operating word nowadays is COLLABORATION.
    It's happening in every industry excpt ours. But, then, what else can one expect when grandpa was B&L.
    Harry . . . don't it make your blue eyes cry?
    Pathetic!

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    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Let me put it like this... I have an Essilor lab rep that drops by every month or so with gobs of information on their services and products (and gee, I can get AR coating and everything from one lab if I send my work to a lab in Tampa).

    I also get regular visits from our Hoya Labs rep, who shows me all the latest, greatest products from that company.

    Now, I have always used SOLA products, and we've always used a local medium sized wholesale lab. However, its only a matter of time before I'll probably start sending my work to, oh, probably Essilor. Why? One, they "advertise" by sending their rep around consistently. Two, if I do have problems, I've met the person to whom I would complain. Three, big labs associated with a lens manufacturer do offer certain conveniences...

    Where does this leave the independent lab? Gee, who knows! All I do know is that they're out there against some pretty big fish. Guess that puts them in the same situation we private OD practices face with LC, Wal-Mart, and the rest.

    Pete

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    What an interesting subject. I have been in the industry 35+ years. I have seen a lot of changes. I remember back to the day's when CR-39 was the hardest material to work with (1971) I remember when Lencrafters was going to put everyone out of business. I also remember when the other chains were going to put everyone out of business.

    The wholesale lab segment has and will continue to go through change. In many cases they have forgotten how to market thier products. They allow the lens manufacturers to dictate what thier customers buy. It is almost like they have become drug stores the Dr. sends the RX and they fill it. They are slow to change and resist change at all costs. With 50+% of the wholesale business being controled by 2 players the rest of the labs need to figure out ways to diferentiate themselves or face an uncertain future.

    There are all kinds of new technilogy being introduced casting, 4-5 axis generators, cut to coat,etc. The wholesale labs need to figure out what they want do when they grow up. They need to decide soon.

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    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jay A. Little

    In many cases they have forgotten how to market thier products.
    Well i'm not sure they have forgotten how to, just its a case of margins being cut so low now, that advertising has now got to the bottom of the list when it comes to spending.


    They allow the lens manufacturers to dictate what thier customers buy.
    Well as they supply the products inderpendent labs have to go with what they market. If customer asks for product xx then thats what you have to give them. Sure you can try to persuade them to take another product but 9 times out of 10 they will not change, unless its a cheaper product and they see more profit for themselves not the lab.


    The wholesale labs need to figure out what they want do when they grow up. They need to decide soon.
    Spot on, just not sure which way they should go though.
    Its hard for the small labs to compete with the likes of essilor etc, who can afford to have reps visiting folks every month trying to drum up work. we cant even afford a rep these days.
    I think that small labs need realy to get together will the local shops and work together to push the products that they can provide with the best margins for all concerned not just the shop at the end.

    It seems funny to me that shops are prepared to go to the likes of essilor, who charge more than the inderpendent labs, but if you try to up your price just a bit they scream blue murder that you are ripping them off and xxx is doing it 10p cheaper. So in some ways its not only the big players who are squeezing the labs but the stores at the end of the chain are turning the screws as well. If the inderpendent labs do go then i look forward to seeing just how the retail end of the market will cope as they will get no easy ride from the likes of essilor etc.

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    Master OptiBoarder karen's Avatar
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    Wow, what a great thread! I'll bet if you added up the time in the business of everybody who has posted ( and viewed ) it would be amazing. Like Susan I worked for an independant that was acquired by Hoya-like the lab that she works for service and quality have always been our calling card, never price. Someone talked about Mr Benedict and how smart he is and I would have to agree... All of us labs that are now affiliated have the best of both worlds, we all still retain a large portion of our independence but have a larger source for product and a bigger pocketbook (crude but true!) to do what is necesary. Knowing he doesn't do much of anything without a plan I have to assume that he meant for us to be able to function that way.

    Harry talked about price and price is important but someone will always come in and offer it to you for less so where do you draw the line? How cheap is cheap enough? Is the benefit of premium product with premium coatings worth the extra dollars involved? Is knowing that you can pick up the phone and have your rep or favorite lab person take care of it of value? Do you want to be kept abreast of new technology and product? If you are paying $6.00 for a pair of FT28's is that happening for you??

    As far as the skilled lab optician goes- I hope they never go away but if you can pay someone $7 and hour to run a generator it makes it hard to justify keeping all those guys around-In my world we would move them all to QC and pay them for each job that was incorrect that they DIDN'T send out in addition to a handsome salary! (McWorld!!)

    My prediction is that the independent wholesale lab as we know it today (which isn't even how we knew it 5 years ago) will be extinct in the next 10 years.

    Admittedly I have gotten a little of the main subject. The thoughts of everybody have made my brain work overtime in about 60 different directions. I think the small independents are going to have it rough. Either they can step up to the plate and compete service wise (which MANY do, please don't misunderstand me!) or compete price wise and pray their volume will be enough. Will they be able to provide the products and services that some of the larger groups are able to-probably not. Can you call at the end of the day with a rush job and have someone stay late to do it-very likely but in all honesty they do that at my lab too. Lots of food for thought everybody, thanks !

    P.S. for Pete- I'll just bet you can get Sola product from your Hoya lab!
    Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

    If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail

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    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    Jay & Karen. . .

    I agree with you completely.
    But, the show ain't over until the show is over.
    Independent labs need to realize they have some advantages the biggies don't have. They can change their marketing on a dime, change their appearance. I'll stop there.

    The biggies have their strengths and the independents do, too. But, as best I can tell, and it seems you lean that way, too . . . independents are too afraid to change.

    That's not good . . . not good at all.
    It's a fait d complee. Fear immobilizes!

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    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Yes, both Milroy and PLL (Hoya and Essilor, respectively) have assured me we can order SOLA products through them... Naturally, each lab's rep is going to focus on the offerings of their owner/manufacturer, though.

    On a slightly off-topic subject (or off-subject topic, I'm not sure which), does anyone have any experience with both the Transition and Corning Sunsensor products? Looking at these samples the Corning rep left yesterday, it looks to me as if the Sunsensor turns darker and a nicer shade than the Transitions (who, btw, I would like to thank for their sponsorship of OptiBoard- Go Transitions, yeah!).

    Pete

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    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Re: The Future of Independent Wholesale Labs?

    Originally posted by Steve Machol
    Is there a future for the Indendent Wholesale Lab? And what do you think these changes mean for the industry?
    Well there has to be a future for inderpendents labs other wise i think the whole optical trade is going to be in trouble.
    Why you will ask...
    Well if the big guys like Essilor, Sola, Hoya etc push hard enough not only will the small labs go but so will a large chunck of your choice of lenses, You would for sure kiss good buy to the cheap vari's that are sold now, so bang goes a large chunk of profit margins.
    What would you do then...
    Dont forget the market can only stand so many high priced lenses, charge to much and you will end up loseing a lot of vari sales as no matter how much you push the customer they will only have x amount to spend.
    Sure the labs have got to get off their backsides and do something, just what who knows, but this trade as a whole needs the small inderpendent labs much more than it seems realise at the moment.
    Yes, nobody has a god given right to carry on if you can't hack it, but give the labs a break next time they say we have got to up the prices.
    Manufactuers up prices, consumables cost more, wages go up, yet the end market expects prices to go down all the time, while not cutting their prices.
    Just wait till the small labs go then see how many inderpendent shops will also go to the wall as they cant compete will the big players any more as they have no longer got the high profit products to work with anymore.
    Last edited by John R; 06-21-2001 at 03:11 PM.

  19. #19
    OptiWizard
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    Harry, you mentioned the old B&L. I'm one of the Rochester guys who helped put them out of business (it was waaaay to late to do anything). Don't know where Lake Norman is but, sure remember Nelson Johnson in Ashville and Jessie Driver in Raleigh. Plus Ed Ware in Greenville; Marsha Tezza in Spartenburg and, of course, ol' Charlie Corley in Columbia. Lot's of good opticians and good memories there.

    Hey, Jay. Only 35 years? Thot it was much longer than that. I agree with most of your points but, in fairness, you should note that you are now with Optical Dynamics, not that that would cloud your vision.

    Casting is here to stay BUT, choosing that as a processing method for a wholesale lab is a little more difficult than for a retailer in that, as someone mentioned above, we fill prescriptions. Our lab uses Varilux products on 85% of the PAL's we process. Were we to buy your technology, we would then have to work out a deal with Essilor for their molds (and, what's the probability of that?); SOLA too; probably Shamir; maybe Optima; how about Pentax?; AO Compact?; and so forth. And, as I argued above, the diversity of product that we offer is one of the sustaining strengths of independents, wholesale AND retail.

    Secondly, all the goop currently available for casting is that dreaded mid-index stuff that has drop-ball considerations.

    Lastly, the range on casting is limited. We will also have to keep our (Coburn?) lab equipment to fill the out of range requirements.

    All that said, we continue to look at the process; it is viable now. Optical Dynamics has come a long way from it's Fast Cast days.

  20. #20
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    Blue Jumper

    Jim, when you start in the business at age 13 it easy is to put in 35 years and still be a kid at heart. You brought the casting subject up I didn't. First let talk about the material. Our 1.56 has the has great Impact reisistance. Not Poly but better than a lot of other materials. (ask John Young at Colts) We have the same specific gravity of Poly, 92% transmittance (where is poly and some of the other high index materials as far as tranmittance is concerned), We have a good abby and the material edges like CR-39. It is amazing to me that the lens Manufactures have been so succesful at convincing the industry that the higher the refractive index the better the lens material is. As a test grind a 1.60 to a minus 6.00 and then do the same thing to a 1.56. Edge the lenses to a 50mm diameter and then caliper the edge thickness. I think you will be surprised. If we are going to put patients in high index lenses we should insist the lenses are AR coated. That way they may be able to see when they leave the retailers place of business.

    No one is going to say that casting will eliminate surfacing. Based on a million pair RX data base casting in it's current ranges will do between 92 and 95%. Franky if we look at material attributes the best material to put on peoples face is glass,other than weight it is still a great material.

    If you do a comparision from casting to surfacing you will see that surfacing require many more steps. Almost all of the labs in this country use 1.530 tooling. There is a compromise to begin with. The lab computer must round to the nearest"something". If the lab had the ability to know the exact front curve, the excact refractive index, cut the minus curve exactly, fine and polish without distorting the surface. We could make almost perfect lenses in surfacing. When is the last time you pulled a finished lens that was off power? That wasn't mispackaged.

    I have gone on to long here. Your comments are welcome

    Jay (who still bleeds cherokee oil) Little

  21. #21
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    I've seen various casting processes and products demonstrated, but I've never actually used a casting system in practice.

    The shortcomings I recalled were you couldn't cast prism, and you couldn't alter the lens thickness for safety applications (not really big issues for most jobs). Also, there was a limit to the size of the blank that could be made (with today's small eyesizes, again not a huge deal- but who knows where eyesizes will take us).

    I suppose my point is that casting just doesn't seem to have the diversity that surfacing does. Its great that you can cast 92% of your work... but you can surface 100% of what you need. I suppose casting may be the wave of the future, but for now surfacing just has the history and mass numbers behind it.

    As for what would happen to the inexpensive products if the independent labs dissappeared- absolutely nothing! Take away the Kias and Hyundais of the world, and Ford would still make an Escort-type vehicle. Even large manufacturers recognize a hole in the market, and they'll fill it. I don't relish the idea of no independents, I just think that's where its all headed (and when it comes to manufacturer owned lab chains, SOLA isn't one of the Big Boys). SOLA may actually pick up some business as they get larger chunks of the independent market. Like the last maker of the buggy whip though, time may not be kind to the lens maker... (to use a line borrowed from Other People's Money).

    Pete

  22. #22
    opti-tipster harry a saake's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    :D Pet. I think what you all are forgetting is casting will keep on making improvements, that will make it supertior as time goes bye. All of the technology is not in place yet, but it will be. Thats why i said within the next 20 years. To my old friend up there in minn.,i think we talked aboput the demise of B&L once before. Yes, i knew of some of those fellows and on occasion talked to them. I wonder if you knew Harry Jesco.

  23. #23
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Thumbs up of course

    Originally posted by harry a saake
    :D Pet. I think what you all are forgetting is casting will keep on making improvements, that will make it supertior as time goes bye. All of the technology is not in place yet, but it will be. Thats why i said within the next 20 years
    As with all aspects of lab work, things are improving all the time, the biggest problem for the small labs is which way to go. If they decide that casting is the route of the future then they will have to decide when the time is right to buy the machinery.
    This will be one heck of an investment for a small lab and could break a few in the process.

  24. #24
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Pete, not quite true

    Originally posted by Pete Hanlin

    As for what would happen to the inexpensive products if the independent labs dissappeared- absolutely nothing! Take away the Kias and Hyundais of the world, and Ford would still make an Escort-type vehicle.
    Even large manufacturers recognize a hole in the market, and they'll fill it. Pete
    True but you can get 1 1/2 Kias for the price of a escort and the Kias are far better specified as well not just your basic tin box. So while the biggies recognize this hole they will not fill it with the same price products, thus lossing the end market a large chunk of their profit margin..

  25. #25
    Bad address email on file Susan Henault's Avatar
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    Smilie

    Originally posted by Jay A. Little
    Almost all of the labs in this country use 1.530 tooling. There is a compromise to begin with. The lab computer must round to the nearest"something". If the lab had the ability to know the exact front curve, the excact refractive index, cut the minus curve exactly, fine and polish without distorting the surface. We could make almost perfect lenses in surfacing.
    Jay -- I would be very surprised to find that "almost all" of the labs are still tooled to 1.530. Surely, many still are, but the BETTER labs have changed their tooling to different indeces, and those that have are cut to tenths versus eighths for improved accuracy. There is even one lab here in the U.S. that has 4 different sets of tools (one for every index they manufacture) AND those 4 sets are cut to 0.06D -- unheard of until now.

    If a WS lab DID NOT have the ability to know the exact front curve, the exact refractive index and could not cut a precise back curve, why would any lab surface? The computer technology used by labs today reduces that "rounding to the nearest something" you mentioned to an all time minumum.

    True, labs have to depend on the accuracy of the index and TC information provided by the manufacturers, but the best lens casters do have consistent true curves. Any lab owner out there can attest that it will cost more to buy that consistency. However, few would argue that you get what you pay for in this business.

    As for "in office or in lab lens casting" being that much more accurate for less cost than the quality surfacing provided by the BEST labs out there, if that were true, wouldn't they all be casting? Moulds for casting have tolerances -- they are not "perfect" in terms of their true "innerface" curves. They are no more perfect than the front and backside curves of the lenses they produce. Even the highest quality (a.k.a. most expensive:-) stock lenses are not "perfect" -- there are acceptable tolerances.

    FINALLY -- as for mid index resins -- we stopped using (some of) them for drill mounted jobs because of notably higher breakages. It's not necessarily about drop ball testing, but tensile strength (or lack there of). Some of the mid index lenses come out more brittle. That may be why manufacturers often encourage labs NOT to back side hard coat those products, even though (in terms of scratch resistance), they perform better if you do.

    Susan (nothing personal because it's only my opinion) Henault

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