Need Advice on a New In-House Lab

[robbish]

Established optometric practice. Looking to cut my lab bill and install an in-house finishing lab. High End area in Southern California, but a neighborhood type of practice. I rx many progressives, AR coatings, Hi-Index materials. I also use a spectrum of zyl, metal, and 3-piece mounts. Looking for some answers to some of the following questions:

1. What is the best equipment for the price? Not looking to buy the cheapest edger/equipment, but also don't want to be taken for a ride on equipment that won't use all of the bells and whistles.

2. What can I expect as far as maintenance costs and frequency?

3. What manufacturers have great and poor reputations and who's policies are the best regarding future servicing of equipment?

4. If you were me, how would you proceed and what would you buy?

5. What should I expect to for our initial outlay (not including any room renovations).

6. I am hoping to hire someone with cutting/edging optical experience to come in at their convenience (at least 3-4 days or nights per week) in order to do the lab work. I don't care if it is at midnight or at noon. Has anyone had this type of arrangement and how has it worked for you?

I am in no hurry to buy and am willing to wait until it feels right to make this investment. Thanks in advance for your responses.

[gemstone]

Finishing only, Santinelli, Gerber coburn. A lot of people have success with N.O. but I have ran the heck out of a lot of machines. Wecos, Horizons, Santenllis, pretty much all. Santnelli will do the best job, cost a little more but worth it. Horizons have a wet mist that does not sti well with a dry cutter type machine. It's difficult to abjust. It is the only way to polish. The Santenelli poly groove/polish comes off the machine ready to mount. Go to the trade shows, if you see interesting machines, get user names. Question users. Come back to this board and ask. Listen only to expierienced users.

I'd but the Santinelli. That'd be the building point. I can verify I work for none of these co. and hook you up with users.

[Jubilee]

If you do a lot of high end ARCs and 3 piece mounts, you definitely want someone with lots of experience and a low spoilage rate. I know most of our labs around here aren't as generous on their warranties on uncut work, and those are some expensive lenses...


I loved working on the Santenelli's as well. Definitely take advantage of going to the optical trade shows and take a look at what the different machines offer, not only brand to brand but within each one as well.

You can take a look on Ebay or even in our Marketplace forum to get an idea of how much a finish type lab would cost. Looking at 35k+ on the edger alone. (unless you get an older one, and have an excellent finish tech who can do manual drilling, etc.)

Another good thing about doing the trade show circuit, is many vendors have show deals available.

Cassandra

[robbish]

Thanks. I plan on going to a trade show next month. I was planning on bringing a few frames (1 metal, 1 rimlon, 1 drilled) to see how well some of the stuff works and check them out for ease of use, quality, etc.

How do the companies compare on servicing equipment? I am sure we will have to do our own on-going maintenance, but is it standard that there is regular service contracts from the manufacturer, or do we get 3rd parties to fix things if they break down?

[MarcE]

I bought my used one from a dealer that really refurbishes the units. They install it and provide training and unlimited telephone support. They also agreed that a Gerber Gamma or Kappa or a Santinelli is the way to go both on durability and ease of use. I have a gamma. I paid about $14K including shipping and training. I have spent some $ on maintenance, but overall it is a workhorse. Everyone I talked to who inititally didn't edge and now does said the same thing; "I can't imagine doing businees without it".

With most of my labs I can save $16 on an uncut progressive; $5 more for a groove, another$4 for a polish, another $6 for a roll. But you save the most on single vision because you can get stock lenses. I can save upwards of $60 a job on a high-index w/ AR or a poly transitions. I even save about $18 on SV Medicaid jobs. I just point this out because you should figure it into your payback calculations. I also mention it because you should avoid edging high-end FTs and progressives (especially if they have AR) until you have a highly qualified edging tech. Also don't forget that on stock lenses, you are now carrying the warranty.

There are a few good threads on here about in-house finishing. Look especially at the one on the Kappa. The Kappa does groove, but the lens has to be a certain thickness. My Gamma doesn't groove, and I am glad. With my $200 groover, I can cut a groove in a lens as thin as 1.5mm. But it takes some skill. There is also a thread about doing roll and polish. The concensus is to get a small $60 bench grinder and put wool and rag wheels on it.

Here is what I do and here are my regrets. I cast lenses, stock poly SV only, Tint, edge, groove, roll and polish by hand, and drill. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't cast lenses and I wouldn't tint. Unless you are doing many jobs a day tinting won't pay back.

You also have a decision to make about drilling. Some units don't drill at the frontal angle of the lens. That seems worthless to me. Also don't think that you can cut the lens and then send it to your lab to be drilled. Most use the edging block to load the lens in the drilling unit, so they would have to drill a pre-edged lens by hand - Not a great choice. Also, if you drill in house, the spoilage rate goes us quite a bit. It's easy to scratch a lens, drill off axis, etc. And the assembly on a drill mount takes a bit of time. I use a SmartDrill ($2500), but it takes some skill.

[Chris Ryser]

I
..............................and I wouldn't tint. Unless you are doing many jobs a day tinting won't pay back.

I can just about prove you to the contrary. .....................................

By heating 1 dye at a time a bottle of dye can last you up to year, and at sixty seconds tinting time for a regular CR39 and poly to darkest shades in 4 to 6 minutes, it takes not much time to do. Check out the patented Micro Tint System at http://optochemicals.com

[LKahn]

We are just about to release our new "Practical Guide on Tinting and Chemicals" It is Free. Send me an email.

[MarcE]

I might concede that point. If I was aware of it at the time, I would have tried your system first.

[Johns]

Also don't forget that on stock lenses, you are now carrying the warranty.

How so ?

Why would you be carrying the warranty ?

I don't.

[Chris Ryser]

I might concede that point. If I was aware of it at the time, I would have tried your system first.

Marc...............actually you can still do, no big investment, all you need is a microwave, which you probably already have, and a bottle of dye,conditioner and remover and you are set to go.

[Fezz]

MarcE-

Good post!





Robbish-

I would throw a curve ball and say that your money and time may be better spent working on increasing your multi-pair sales. I do some in house edging, not much. We do save money on them. I bought an older design(Horizon II) pattern edger, and am selective in what I do. We are a busy practice. We have found that my time is better spent on the sales floor then grinding down lenses. If I can dedicate a little more time and effort, I can usually fill more of a patients needs with a multiple pair sale, or sell to someone they are with. You can sure save a boatload of money when you first look at in-house edging. But, if you have to add an employee it really changes things. Does this employee work everyday? Full-time, or part? Benefits, ins? What if they only come in in the evenings, but, you need a "rush" job edged for Mrs. Jones right NOW? How about edging the money saving SV stock lenses that you will probably have on site. You know, the ones that you are saving so much on, but can't sell right now because your edging person is not in until 6:00 and these patients walk because you could'nt edge them right away. What if the edging person get sick, smokes dope and wigs out, or up and quits when you have a pile of twenty jobs to get done?

Just food for thought. I am not against in house edging at all. I just want you to think of all angles and prepare mentally and business wise.

Good luck and do keep us posted as to your thought process and decisions.

[gemstone]

How so ?

Why would you be carrying the warranty ?

I don't.

If you are buying expensive lenses uncuts or finished,make sure to KNOW WHAT YOUR LABS POLICIES ARE on progresive refits, scratch warranties, professional errors and breakage. You WILL find great variations.

[DocInChina]

4. If you were me, how would you proceed and what would you buy?

5. I am hoping to hire someone with cutting/edging optical experience to come in at their convenience (at least 3-4 days or nights per week) in order to do the lab work. I don't care if it is at midnight or at noon. Has anyone had this type of arrangement and how has it worked for you?

Hi Robbish,

You received alot of good advice and I will throw in my 2 cents. I would recommend buying a very user friendly edger. In the past I had both a Santinelli and Horizon 3. They both had their advantages but my personal preference was the Horizon 3 (despite it not being able to give a good polish).

In the beginning I would recommend that you learn to do the lab work yourself. Stay after hours, come in before you open but get the work done yourself. Once you become proficient at lab work you will never be a hostage to an employee. If you currently outsourcing your lab work then your customers are used to not having one hour service. After you set up your lab do not offer one hour service either unless it is an emergency or you will otherwise lose a sale.

The money you save on hiring personnel for lab work will be your profit as well as the edging fee and lens fees for outsourcing. If you have a stock lens supplier near by you can order as needed without having inventory. The cost is higher per pair than importing yourself. If you want to import your own product the per pair savings is very high. Once you take this step and import your own lenses you must be commited to maintaining the inventory so that you recoup your original investment and keep increasing your profitability monthly.

If you have questions about what product to import and how to do so feel free to PM me.

Doc

[Cherry Optical]

4. If you were me, how would you proceed and what would you buy?

I would negotiate a lower price with your lab and forget about the whole in-house lab. Instead, find some fun activies to do with your family or take up a new hobby with your extra time.

If you are looking to make more money by investing into your own in-house lab, you are headed down a slipperly slope.

Adam

[Johns]

Instead, find some fun activies to do with your family or take up a new hobby with your extra time.

... you are headed down a slipperly slope.

Adam

What could be more fun than skiing?:D


Hmmm..

If in-house labs are so unfprofitable, why do the most profitable practices all have them ?

[eyesonyou]

Are you in San Diego.. My email axiseye@gmail.com

Established optometric practice. Looking to cut my lab bill and install an in-house finishing lab. High End area in Southern California, but a neighborhood type of practice. I rx many progressives, AR coatings, Hi-Index materials. I also use a spectrum of zyl, metal, and 3-piece mounts. Looking for some answers to some of the following questions:

1. What is the best equipment for the price? Not looking to buy the cheapest edger/equipment, but also don't want to be taken for a ride on equipment that won't use all of the bells and whistles.

2. What can I expect as far as maintenance costs and frequency?

3. What manufacturers have great and poor reputations and who's policies are the best regarding future servicing of equipment?

4. If you were me, how would you proceed and what would you buy?

5. What should I expect to for our initial outlay (not including any room renovations).

6. I am hoping to hire someone with cutting/edging optical experience to come in at their convenience (at least 3-4 days or nights per week) in order to do the lab work. I don't care if it is at midnight or at noon. Has anyone had this type of arrangement and how has it worked for you?

I am in no hurry to buy and am willing to wait until it feels right to make this investment. Thanks in advance for your responses.

[Cherry Optical]

What could be more fun than skiing?:D


Hmmm..

If in-house labs are so unfprofitable, why do the most profitable practices all have them ?

Honestly:

Do you truely believe the small savings of an in-house lab are what makes the difference? Seriously?

My point is to negoitate some pricing options ahead of time. So many people never compute in the cost of buying, operating, and maintaining equipment into the equation. You can not just simply look at an uncut price list verse a finished price list and start calculating your savings.

Simple benchmarks to consider:

What do you calculate to be your savings per job?
It takes approximately 30 minutes from block to wash up for each job.
What are you paying yourself/your employee(s) to work in your lab?
What is you expense of consuables used in your lab?

As you all know, I will go round-n-round on this one. I'm just sayin, don't expect an in-house lab to suddenly make you 'one of the most profitable practices' in the nation.

Adam

[SRL]

You have some good points Adam. However, instant profit, from a finishing lab, isn't the only thing to consider. In my practice, we still believe in Customer Service. While there are a lot of people that purchase complete glasses, frame and lenses, there are also a lot that, for whatever reason, use their own frames. By being able to service them without causing a major inconvenience we retain them for future sales. This has been supported by 25 years of success in the same location. 90% of our patients are repeats or referrals. We must be doing something right and it is my contention that having a finish lab and thereby providing a little bit better customer service is one of the keys.

[Johns]

Honestly:

Do you truely believe the small savings of an in-house lab are what makes the difference? Seriously?

My point is to negoitate some pricing options ahead of time.



It takes approximately 30 minutes from block to wash up for each job.



I'm just sayin, don't expect an in-house lab to suddenly make you 'one of the most profitable practices' in the nation.

Adam

1. I negotiate my uncut price list.

2. We are averaging approximately 8 minutes from lensometer, to bench alligment.

3. I don't want to be THE most profitable, just one of them.

4. What STEPHEN LOGINS said. (Great post Stephen!)

Like I said...The cat's out of the bag. Robbish is going to take the leap, it's just a matter of how. He's asking the right questions, and he'll no doubt find success (as well as more profits;) ).

[Cherry Optical]

You have some good points Adam. However, instant profit, from a finishing lab, isn't the only thing to consider. In my practice, we still believe in Customer Service. While there are a lot of people that purchase complete glasses, frame and lenses, there are also a lot that, for whatever reason, use their own frames.

Remote tracer (paid for by your Lab) and hand-stone (good Lab would Co-Op this) would address this issue with little to no investment on your part.

Adam

[Cherry Optical]

2. We are averaging approximately 8 minutes from lensometer, to bench alligment.

Wow! You must really be doing something right, or we need you to come and do some work-flow studies. Honestly, 8 minutes? How many people do you have there? How many edgers?

8 minutes........:cheers:


Adam

[Fezz]

Remote tracer (paid for by your Lab) and hand-stone (good Lab would Co-Op this) would address this issue with little to no investment on your part.

Adam

Good advice! Works for me!

[Johns]

Wow! You must really be doing something right, or we need you to come and do some work-flow studies. Honestly, 8 minutes? How many people do you have there? How many edgers?

8 minutes........:cheers:


Adam

Am I missing something? You're talking about finishing, not surfacing, right? I've got one guy on an Optronics 7E that, runs poly on a 2.35 minute cycle per lens.

One edger
One optician in the lab.

-Manual lensometer (about15 seconds to read & mark each lens)
-Tracing (about 25 seconds)
-Drink some coffee (About 20 seconds for 2 sips)
-Edging (about 5 minutes per pr.
-Tracing/Layout/blovcking-Auto (about 2.0 minutes total)
-Glaze lenses into frame (20 seconds )
-Look at yourself in the mirror and smile (2 minutes)

I guess you're right, I forgot about all the mirror time.

What's so unbelieveabler about 8 minutes ? We had a guy complain last week that he had to wait 20 minutes for us to make his glasses. (There were jobs ahead of his). WE try to spoil our customers so that they won't/can't go anywhere else and get service like they do here.

Our edger drills the lenses as well, and we tell the patient that if we have the SV in stock, we'll have there glasses in about 20 minutes.

It's the interuptions that slow you down in the lab, not the edging.

Come on down and see our operation. It's huge!;) It takes about as much space as a microwave, a toaster, and a coffee maker would in your kitchen. In fact, it take up less than that ! It took more space before; when we had to have trays with jobs waitng to come back from the lab sitting all over. Now, almost all of our SV jobs are out within about 20 minutes of the completion of the exam.

Bring on the work flow study! Or better yet, we can meet at VE at the Optronics booth. (I have no financial interest in Optronics. Well, I kind of do - I wrote them a big check, worth every penny, back in August. I should at least be considered a shareholder!)

[Cherry Optical]

We had a guy complain last week that he had to wait 20 minutes for us to make his glasses.

Bring on the work flow study! Or better yet, we can meet at VE at the Optronics booth.

Ah ha! Complaints about 20 minute turn-times. Yet another reason to not have an inhouse lab. LoL. It sounds like you have a great operation that is working well for. I wish you continued success.

VEW would work much better for me. I have never been to New York City. When I finally do go, I would much rather not have to talk lenses. :)

Adam

[Johns]

[quote=Cherry Optical
VEW would work much better for me. I have never been to New York City. When I finally do go, I would much rather not have to talk lenses. :)

Adam[/quote]

Sounds good! Let's talk beer instead!

I'll be there w/James Herman, maybe we can run into Fezz...
I'll be he can talk beer in toungues!:cheers: