Celebrate!

[Spexvet]

In an era when our military is in foreign lands spreading freedom, it’s fitting to take some time to celebrate some of the liberties that we have here at home. Today is the 34th anniversary of the Roe V Wade decision, a decision that expanded the rights and freedom of American women. Since this historic decision, a woman has had the choice to not have sex, to have sex using contraception, to seek to become pregnant, to take no action with regards to an unwanted pregnancy and keep the child she bears, to take no action with regards to an unwanted pregnancy and give up the child she bears for adoption, or to end an unwanted pregnancy in a safe way. Hopefully, a woman weighs all of these options and chooses what is best for her – after all, who would know better? Certainly not you or I. Freedoms like this should be cherished.

[Pete Hanlin]

Of course, if you are an unborn baby, you've lost the right to live your life. If you're a father, you've lost the right to see your child born.

But, yes- if you are a woman you do have the right to have your child killed (provided you accomplish that task before s/he is born- doing so a day late is murder).

Not sure I'd celebrate a law that legalizes the termination of life- but if "celebrate" is the word you want to choose, enjoy the party...

PS- I think women had the right not to have sex prior to Roe v. Wade.

[Spexvet]

Wow, Pete, you really turned that up a notch! No wonder there's no middle ground with conservative repubicans.

[Johns]

Today is the 34th anniversary of the Roe V Wade decision, a decision that expanded the rights and freedom of American women.

Uh excuse me...

Not ALL American women, just those that were not killed before their first breath.

You really pick some strange things to celebrate...

[Cindy K]

Since this historic decision, a woman has had the choice to not have sex, to have sex using contraception, to seek to become pregnant, to take no action with regards to an unwanted pregnancy and keep the child she bears, to take no action with regards to an unwanted pregnancy and give up the child she bears for adoption, or to end an unwanted pregnancy in a safe way.

And us women need a license to drive a car, catch a fish, own a dog, be an optician, but there's no prerequisites to breed. In view of some of the bad parenting we are all witness to, rather than celebrate the freedoms brought about by this historic decision,take a moment to reflect on the repercussions on our society by those people who choose to multiply who perhaps shouldn't. I am most certainly not pro-abortion; our society is reaping the rewards of too many freedoms.

[k12311997]

don't forget freedom from responsibility for your decisions.

[chip anderson]

It's not the conservative Republican in in Pete that offends you, it's the servant of God in Pete that offends you.

Chip (I'm with Pete.)

[Grubendol]

Servant of God, Conservative Republican...Commie Pinko Leftist, we're all Americans and we need to remember how to discuss and debate freely, without resulting to namecalling.

30 years ago this discussion was about when does viability occur. Today the discussion is entirely "Baby Killer vs. Right Wing Nut" It's all bad for us.

i.e...."Embryonic stem cell research". The name itself is something that is entirely invalid. Once a zygote develops to a blastocyst, and then an embryo it no longer has non-differentiated stem cells. This research requires non-differentiated stem cells. It needs Zygotic or blastocystic stem cells.

The same question of when life begins and viability needs to be reintroduced into the abortion discussion.

In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?!"

[DragonLensmanWV]

I've always thought that if someone was so violently opposed to abortion that they go and kill the abortionists, then obviously they are deluded. I've also always thought that if someone was really really opposed to abortion, they should sign up to adopt all these illegitimates.
Of course, I also think that these young kids should not be getting preggers in the first place. There's no excuse but stupidity if you get pregnant anymore, at least unintentionally.
But to force someone to have their child and live in squalor, as many do, as an object lesson in morality is in itself morally wrong.

$0.02

[Spexvet]

It sounds like you folks don't love freedom. I don't think anyone likes to be told what they can/can't do with their body, who they can marry, what religion they can be. Making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening, it just causes other problems - think prohibition and llegal drugs. In that light, how would you reduce abortions without making them illegal? Be realistic - abstinence doesn't work, or you'd have been a virgin when you got married and would only have sex within marriage if you wanted children.

[k12311997]

It sounds like you folks don't love freedom. I don't think anyone likes to be told what they can/can't do with their body, who they can marry, what religion they can be. Making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening, it just causes other problems - think prohibition and llegal drugs. In that light, how would you reduce abortions without making them illegal? Be realistic - abstinence doesn't work, or you'd have been a virgin when you got married and would only have sex within marriage if you wanted children.

Actually I love freedom, I just believe in personal responsability, Abortion can be legal it is a medical procedure like any other to those who don't view it as taking a life. But it should not have the status of protected right. there should be safegards within the system to ensure it is not being used as birthcontrol. The private adoption system is sending people to China to adopt children, I've seen ads in the paper for coulpes looking for surogates to cary their children. Why kill a child because you fully well knowing of the possibility and without reasonable percaution took off your clothes.

There are may arguments of pro-abortion that are valid rape, incest, mothers life endangered by the pregnancy, I would love to know the statistics of how often those are the reasons.

My ex wife was considering gastric bypass. Before being considered for the procedure she had to go to counseling, go on a reduced calorie diet for three months to ensure she would stick to the forced reduction of calories required after the surgery. Where are the safegards forcing people to consider what they are doing.

Elective surgery,

LASIK, Gastric Bypass, Liposuction, Rhynoplasty, Abortion

does abortion really belong on that list?

[Bill West]

Loving freedom has absolutely nothing to do with murdering innocent babies.This act is brought on by reckless,stupid,careless and irresponsible behavior. Tell it like it is not like you want it to be. For crying out loud don't show all your stupidity, try to keep some a secret you may need it later.

It sounds like you folks don't love freedom. I don't think anyone likes to be told what they can/can't do with their body, who they can marry, what religion they can be. Making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening, it just causes other problems - think prohibition and llegal drugs. In that light, how would you reduce abortions without making them illegal? Be realistic - abstinence doesn't work, or you'd have been a virgin when you got married and would only have sex within marriage if you wanted children.

[Grubendol]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON who advocates freedom of choice is "pro abortion". None of us think it is an alternative to contraception. Neither is the group who are against abortion "pro-life", if they were then they would be adopting every unwanted child. This country has become too much about viewing things in black and white.

Those who support Roe V. Wade support the Freedom to choose what to do with your own body. I have family members who have had abortions. I don't think it was right of her to do it, but I respect her CHOICE to do it. I can't tell her what to do with her body, like she can't tell me what to do with mine.

[k12311997]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON who advocates freedom of choice is "pro abortion". None of us think it is an alternative to contraception. Neither is the group who are against abortion "pro-life", if they were then they would be adopting every unwanted child. This country has become too much about viewing things in black and white.

Those who support Roe V. Wade support the Freedom to choose what to do with your own body. I have family members who have had abortions. I don't think it was right of her to do it, but I respect her CHOICE to do it. I can't tell her what to do with her body, like she can't tell me what to do with mine.

I would disagree with your stance that it is about freedom versus pro abortion, if it was the arguments involved wouldn't concentrate so heavily on "it's not a life"


once again my stance
- Abortion is not wrong when Necessary, Yes I mourn the what I view as the loss of a life but can accept the need.

- Defense of Abortion as choice validates its use as contraception.

- Abortion should not be illegal, it should be strictly controlled, There are enough people waiting to adopt a baby there are just too many hoops in place it needs to be easier for qualified couples, individuals, whatever to be introduced to those individuals considering abortion

[k12311997]

I really wish some more female optiboarders would jump on this discussion between men it is just about equall to us complaining about PMS.

[Robert Martellaro]

If it was the man who had to carry the baby abortion would have been legal from day one. Probably more birth defects and a lot more whining though.

[Grubendol]

That's part of my argument too....Man have no right to make laws about something that can't begin to comprehend.

[FVCCHRIS]

That's part of my argument too....Man have no right to make laws about something that can't begin to comprehend.

So where shall the United States of American Women be located? Not right next to US I hope!

There has always been in my mind two subjects which could lead to the downfall of the U.S. 1.) Race and 2.) Abortion.

You must try to remain civil in your discussions of both. jmho, Chris.

[Spexvet]

Actually I love freedom, I just believe in personal responsability,

Then won't keeping abortion legal allow a person to be personally responsible, as opposed to merely following the guidelines set by the government?

Abortion can be legal it is a medical procedure like any other to those who don't view it as taking a life. But it should not have the status of protected right.

Being legal is not enough. Right now, in our country, there are pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills.

there should be safegards within the system to ensure it is not being used as birthcontrol.

Don't you think it should be up to an individual to make that kind of decision?

The private adoption system is sending people to China to adopt children, I've seen ads in the paper for coulpes looking for surogates to cary their children. Why kill a child because you fully well knowing of the possibility and without reasonable percaution took off your clothes.

While I would like to see fewer abortions and more adoptions, it is not my business. A freedom is a freedom. What you're saying is akin to "people have the freedom to be any religion they want, as long they worship in a synagogue".

...
My ex wife was considering gastric bypass. Before being considered for the procedure she had to go to counseling, go on a reduced calorie diet for three months to ensure she would stick to the forced reduction of calories required after the surgery. Where are the safegards forcing people to consider what they are doing.
...

Should we also have safeguards forcing people to consider what they are doing before they get married? Have Kids? Get breast implants? Invade Iraq?

[k12311997]

Then won't keeping abortion legal allow a person to be personally responsible, as opposed to merely following the guidelines set by the government?
not set by the government by the medical health profession.


Being legal is not enough. Right now, in our country, there are pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills.

and ophthalmologists refusing to fill out driver paperwork, your point? you will always find people within any profession that use situational ethics



Don't you think it should be up to an individual to make that kind of decision?

once again defending it as choice validates abortion as birth control. condom, patch, sponge, iud, hell even rhythm method if you have to be a good catholic, abortion - which one does not belong on this list.

While I would like to see fewer abortions and more adoptions, it is not my business. A freedom is a freedom. What you're saying is akin to "people have the freedom to be any religion they want, as long they worship in a synagogue".

if you have the freedom to do what you want with your body why does society spend so much effort to prevent suicide.
what you're saying is akin "to using freedom of speech to defend the KKK"



Should we also have safeguards forcing people to consider what they are doing before they get married? Have Kids? Get breast implants? Invade Iraq?

forced is probably not the right word to use so I take it back, we need to do a better job of raising individuals who respect themselves and accept the responsibility of there actions, abortion is not a responsible choice. but there is support in the community for marriage, and children. I'm not sure where breast implants come in unless you really mean that abortion is nothing more than elective surgery. You may not have voted for him, but there are a ton of safeguards they just don't always work.

sorry I don't know how to separate out the quotes

[ziggy]

[quote=Spexvet;174292]
Being legal is not enough. Right now, in our country, there are pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for birth control pills.

Don't you think it should be up to an individual to make that kind of decision? [quote]

Am I wrong, or does your 2nd quote answer your 1st?:hammer:

[elena]

Well, I think it's a complex topic.

Some people think abortion is just like murder while others do not think so.
Different culture, different social standard and so on determines

[Pete Hanlin]

It sounds like you folks don't love freedom. I don't think anyone likes to be told what they can/can't do with their body, who they can marry, what religion they can be. Making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening, it just causes other problems - think prohibition and llegal drugs. In that light, how would you reduce abortions without making them illegal? Be realistic - abstinence doesn't work, or you'd have been a virgin when you got married and would only have sex within marriage if you wanted children.

I'm amazed that you would say MY response "stepped it up a notch" (btw, I don't recall engaging in any name calling, either...).

Why is it that you can post a deliberately inflammatory message of "celebration" regarding an act that you know some individuals on this board consider murder, and yet when I post and try to pose another view its "stepping things up?"

I don't like laws which tell people what to do with their bodies, either. I do find it amusing that many pro-choice advocates are also the first in line to laud smoking bans (even for open air stadiums and such). Pause to allow you time to object that smoking involves another person's body (namely yours)...

Well then, I would argue that abortion certainly affects TWO bodies- the mother's and the unborn child's- which is my point. I don't particularly think a law which allows people to terminate someone's life is something worthy of celebration... if that's "stepping it up a notch" then I'd suggest you are simply intolerant and incapable of discussion on the matter.

Regarding the argument that making something illegal doesn't eliminate the behaivor... using the same il-logic, why should we have speed limits, seat belt laws, child seat laws, controlled substance bans, laws against murder, rape, theft, or any other activity???

I have repeatedly posted that making abortion illegal at this point is impractical (and not something I advocate). I would think that's a good enough compromise for someone of your opinion on the subject... but no, you not only wish for someone like me to "leave bad enough alone," you ask that I celebrate an idea I find abhorent.

Regarding abstinence prior to marriage- is that really so impractical? My personal experience with the concept was quite positive.

[Jubilee]

There are many people on waiting lists hoping for the chance to give a child a home and parents who want and love them.

Do you know the average wait to get a child through adoption under the age of 5 in the US is over 2 years?

Did you know the reason why many people are going to China, Africa, India, Russia, and other countries to adopt is because the can't get a child here in the US do to waiting lists?

Some of the countires even demand that the parents make X amount of dollars, have a stable homelife by having a married couple that has been together for 5-10 years depending on whether their has been a previous divorce?

While it would be nice to state that here in the US or in any of these countries all you need is love, shelter, and life's necessities to adopt a child. Instead it takes THOUSANDS (30 +) and more. Fortunately there are hundreds of thousands of eager to be parents able to provide the money necessary to adopt.

As far as the older children in the system. Many times I have been touched by one of the stories printed in the paper or on the state website to Foster with the intent to adopt. However since I work full time, and so does my husband, combine that with having another child.. I do not qualify.

Abortion is murder. THe laws in the US state that if My husband committed an act that caused me to lose my baby, than it is murder. If I go to the clinic down the street and let them scrape me out, well that is my choice.

The laws do not make sense. How can an unborn child be a life but not at the same time?


Cassandra

[Spexvet]

There are many people on waiting lists hoping for the chance to give a child a home and parents who want and love them...

While adopting might be incentive to carry full-term, I don't think it's a reason to make abortion illegal. It could lead to "baby-farming", women being brood mares for adopting parents.

Abortion is murder. THe laws in the US state that if My husband committed an act that caused me to lose my baby, than it is murder. If I go to the clinic down the street and let them scrape me out, well that is my choice.

The laws do not make sense. How can an unborn child be a life but not at the same time?

Cassandra

I agree. The government can execute people, we send our military to Iraq to be killed and to kill others, yet murder is illegal. :hammer: