Mormons?

[aaron]

Wow!

That will teach me to wait a few days before checking back. Thanks for all of the info. I did some research on various sources (including wikipedia) and spoke to some mormons. i will be honest it was difficult to get them to talk to me about some of the more "controversial" if you will teachings. one thing I am sure of is that they hold family and charity in very high regard which is something to be said in this world we live in. Plus...I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses so i know what it is like to sometimes be marginalized or have half truths told to the masses on your behalf. So I really wanted to give the beliefs a fighting chance.

Basically I came to the conclution that everything comes down to basis of faith. Basis of faith in the book of mormon and Joseph Smith's being a prophet. If someone was to believe those things than all of the other things that would be considered "differant" from the bible would not be a problem. ie. no alcohol, "hot drinks", speial priestlike undergarments etc...
But that is where I run into a roadblock. They claim to believe in the bible "as it is acurately translated". This qualifier brings me some trouble since the BoM quotes over 27,000 words from the bible....KJV no less. Not the most acurate translation in history if i may say so. And Joseph Smith had a kind of sketchy history that included shooting into a mob that was coming to get him.

While some of the basic principles in the bible agree with the BoM, the overall doctrine seems to be very differant and takes the place of many things that were written there. I am not big on organized religion to begin with (that may sound weird coming from a JW) but every question that I asked them seemed to put me in front of another one of their writtings either in the BoM, or the Doctrines and Covenants, or even Words of Wisdom etc...

I guess my question for anyone mormon (Jubilee? :) would be what the "basis of faith" is in the BoM and the subsequent writtings of the church leaders. Thanks alot. Look forward to further insight from you guys.

aaron

[Dave Nelson]

The direct translation into King James english is a tough one to explain, isn't it?

[aaron]

The direct translation into King James english is a tough one to explain, isn't it?

Someone told me that that was how people spoke in the US in the late 1800's but I don't know if that is true. It doesn't seem right but then again I wasn't around then.

Chip! How did people speak back then?:D


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[Dave Nelson]

Yea, verily, I say unto you, they didst not speaketh this way in the U.S.
thou art a bit off base. Lo, behold, for they speaketh more like we do today. For example, If thou were a stagecoach robber, thou would not have said:
Lo!, cast yourselves from thine stagecoach, and raise thine hands to the heavens, or I will smite thee with my Smith and Wesson.
See my point?

[aaron]

I doith.

What then is the basis of faith in the BoM?

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[Jubilee]

Here is a quick and dirty answer for the 5 mins I have... I will try to get a more polished answer later though I may not be the most conventional person to ask ;)

Basically the Book of Mormon is to be another testament of Christ. The book is started by a man, Lehi and the tales of his family setting upon a journey to a new world, which we now know as the Americas. In many ways it does parrallel the Bible, two sons/brothers who take very different view points and thus sets up a series of wars/famine/strife as the good guys try to follow the ways of Christ and the bad guys mock/torture/persecute the others for it. After Christ's resurrection and appearances to people of Israel, He visits the Americas to teach his gospel and principles to them. When Christ was winding down his visit with the disciples, He mentions there are sheep that are not of this flock that He must tend to... This is where it is believed that Christ was referencing the people in the Americas.

After the near destruction of the the more holy tribe, the plates are buried into a hillside for future generations. Where Joseph Smith later finds them after praying about which church to join.

There are a couple of websites such as www.fair.org and www.fairwiki.org that adress some of the more controversial aspects of the religion.

Cassandra

[Grubendol]

When I was down and out after almost dying from my illness, and had finished my recovery with family in Sacramento, an acquaintance friend opened his home to me to live in while I found work and got back on my feet. His family is now among my best friends and both he and his son were groosmen in my wedding.

I may not understand the faith, but mormons are awesome people

[aaron]

G,

I agree. I have only met 2 bad Mormons in my life and it isn't the religions fault they were jerks. Being an idiot is an equal opportunity position that does not discriminate on the basis of color, religion, sex, orientation, or any other clasification.

Jubilee,

thanks for the response. I have done a bit more research and learned quite a bit. I suppose my question wasn't very clear. What I meant by basis of faith was more related to the word "proof". I believe that the bible has signs of proof that it is special and worthy of recognition beyond just a book written by men. It is scientifically accurate (creation account is in proper order, water cycle, Isrealites warned of practices that would be harmful due to bacteria, earth is called round and suspended in nothing way before it was fashionable to do so.) It has quite a bit of archeological evidence to support much (not all) of it. It contains specific prophecy that was written hundreds of years in advance that eneded up happening just as foretold (fall of Babylon). So there seems to be "proof " of its authenticity. Is there anything like this in the BoM? I could not find anything outside of Mormon backed findings to bring support to the claims of civilizations of millions in these areas in South America (where I am currently living). Is there anything else?

Thanks Jubilee. I appreciate it.


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[Jubilee]

The proof many Mormon theologians refer to, are the remnants of the Myan, Aztec and other ancient cultures indegineous to the American continent.

This article in the Fairwiki is probably the most revelant to the information you are looking for...

http://www.fairwiki.org/index.php/Bo...on_historicity

[Dave Nelson]

Proof? Faiths are called faiths because there IS NO proof.

[Christosfer]

Merry Christmas everyone!

I like what you have to say in regard to Mormonism, but have one minor point of correction on statement number four. We are to work out our salvation not work "at" our salvation. The difference being that our salvation has already been secured and we cannot earn it. The working out is the end product of the salvation that we receive from God through Christ. The product of our thankfulness that we are forever secure is the fruit that we produce with our lives.
Just a difference of two letters that perhaps you meant what I said, but those two letters mean a world of difference.

God bless you all

(See my other post on the Mormon faith)

I grew up in a predominately mormon community (in southern Idaho).


4) the whole "grace" (salvation without works) and "works" (yeah, Christ's death provided attonement but I have to work at my salvation, too)


here's some links to other faith comparison charts -


http://www.mormonchallenge.com/ref_biblecontra.htm

http://www.mormonchallenge.com/ref_compare.htm

http://www.beliefnet.com/features/mormonism.html

[Christosfer]

Greetings,

I have done some checking on the Mormons before I had a couple come to my house for a chat. Twice they came over and we discussed the Bible and their beliefs.

Their belief system lacks evidence to back the claims made. Mormons teach that the American Indians are ancestors of the Jews that came here long ago. DNA shows that this not true, not the same heritage. Archeology has turned up nothing of the ancient civilization that Joseph Smith claims was here. Now the death blow comes. The "Book of Abraham", another of Joseph Smith's writings has been shown to be a lie. Unlike the "Book of Mormon" which can't be verified with the "gold plates"; the lost book of Abraham can be checked. The Papyri have been recovered and translated by both Mormon and non-mormon sources, and they do not say anything close to what Joseph says they do. These Papyri that Joesph bought from an antiquities dealer are in fact ancient Egyptian burial documents, and not some lost book of Abraham. You can read the story yourself on the link that I provided. The author even allows a free download of his book. You can also buy a dvd that lays it all out for you.

Don't be misled by this cult.
Praying for feeling or "Testimony" is no answer for the fact that this is a false religion that can't bring evidence to support the claims they make.

Christianity is centered around the crucifixion and ressurection of Jesus. Even his enemies admitted that the tomb was empty. All they had to do to stop the spread of Christianity was produce his body, they did not. And if you think that a bunch of his followers who fled in fear at his beating would suddenly have the courage to make up a lie about him that they would die for; well that just doesn't make much sense. Would you be tortured to death for a lie that you had nothing to gain from? Me either. The fact is Christianity is founded on verifiable historical evidence. Not only in the Bible, but in numbers of historical sources both friendly and foe. Josephus, Tertullian, Justin Martyr and many more. Check it out for yourself.


Check out this link:
www.irr.org/mit/Book-of-Abraham-page.html

[rinselberg]

That some (or even all) of the Mormon scriptures are historically in the realm of fiction, I would not dispute. Does that make Mormonism a "cult" or a "false religion" ..? IMHO, not so. Not any more so than any other widely practiced religion that anyone would care to name.


It doesn't get much bigger than Skeletons that won't fit in your closet ...

[hcjilson]

The problem with threads on religion is that everyone has a different take. Some are more vociferous than others, and tend to dig in their heels while promulgating their beliefs. This leads to the escalation of argumentation. Suddenly we see organized religions referred to as cults. What was that statement designed to do to the reader? I would ask the participants in this thread to practice a little tolerance when they come across someone who believes a little differently than they do.

[chip anderson]

Who we gonna jump on next? Baptists, Methodists, Seven day Adventists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopals, there's lots of good targets out there.


Chip

[Christosfer]

That some (or even all) of the Mormon scriptures are historically in the realm of fiction, I would not dispute. Does that make Mormonism a "cult" or a "false religion" ..? IMHO, not so. Not any more so than any other widely practiced religion that anyone would care to name.


Jurassic Post. Two hundred million years distant in time. One mouse click in cyberspace.

SO you agree that it is a false religion then. If you are saying that Christianity is false at it's core then I would say; what is your evidence?

[Christosfer]

The problem with threads on religion is that everyone has a different take. Some are more vociferous than others, and tend to dig in their heels while promulgating their beliefs. This leads to the escalation of argumentation. Suddenly we see organized religions referred to as cults. What was that statement designed to do to the reader? I would ask the participants in this thread to practice a little tolerance when they come across someone who believes a little differently than they do.

I think that I was tolerant, but then I am not really sure what you meant by your comment. Are you saying that I was wrong in what I said? If so, is that tolerant? I was not attacking a person, I was laying out the evidence that what mormons believe is false. Does being tolerant mean that you we shouldn't tell someone when they are wrong about something? We tell people they shouldn't smoke because it's bad for your health. I am saying that believing in a false God is bad for your soul. The truth will always be offensive to someone that is found on the wrong side of it.

[Dave Nelson]

Mormons, like Baptists, have to make what is often referred to as a "leap of faith." There is no iron-clad proof of the existance of God or Jesus, or George W. Bush, so it should come as no surprise to you that other people come to different conclusions than you. Trying to disprove Mormonism while believing in another religion based on your own faith in it just doesn't seem to make sense.

[rinselberg]

That some (or even all) of the Mormon scriptures are historically in the realm of fiction, I would not dispute. Does that make Mormonism a "cult" or a "false religion" ..? IMHO, not so. Not any more so than any other widely practiced religion that anyone would care to name.

SO you agree that it is a false religion then. If you are saying that Christianity is false at its core then I would say; what is your evidence?

"False religion" signifies something very different to some of us who have posted here than it does to me.

To me, a "false religion" would be a religion that teaches or encourages its adherents to do things that I do not think would be commonly acceptable if the world were populated by only me and other people who are kind of like me. (That should get a "rise" out of just about every one, but I think it's an almost perfect definition of my POV.) Breaking in through a window and stealing this computer, for example. Waking up to find someone in need of emergency medical assistance on your front doorstep, but not troubling yourself to dial 911. Only dialing 911 if that person who needs help is "white" - or "black" - or Hispanic - and so on. Setting off a deadly bomb in a strip mall, because you don't think that a national government that is trying to maintain civil order is partial enough to you and your most selfish personal desires, views and objectives.

Has there ever been such a religion?

National Socialism (Nazism) as it was in Germany and some other places around the world from 1920 to 1945. That was a religion - or very close to it. And not to single out any one group, but just to make a point with some examples, there were some persons of prominence in established Christian and Islamic institutions who either turned a blind eye towards the expanding influence of the Nazis or aligned their own objectives with the Nazis. These are recent historical examples of some Christian or Islamic communities turning from an authentic Christianity or Islam to a false or corrupted version of Christianity or Islam.

As far as religions and their scriptures or foundational writings, I see it like this: There are the writings that purport to be historical: Narratives of what's already happened. And there are the writings that are analytical and injunctive: How should a person of [this] faith interpret what has already happened? When we contemplate what has already happened, what should it mean to us? What lessons should we incorporate into our own thoughts and actions in life?

It's immaterial to me whether the narrative is partly or entirely fictional, as long as I see no falsehood (or "false religion", as I have tried to define it) in the analytical and injunctive parts.

I'm giving the Mormons the benefit of my doubt. I'm just about dead certain that I would not personally want to conform to Mormonism in all the ways that a standard interpretation of it would require. But to the extent that I have perceived Mormons and Mormonism - which is partly from high school courses, partly from TV and newspapers and even in small part from a few weeks many years ago in Salt Lake City, I don't find them alarming. There's nothing in the air at the moment that would prompt me to say it's a false religion - as I use that term.


Jurassic Post
Two hundred million years distant in time. One mouse click in cyberspace.

[Jubilee]

Mormonism believes in the God of Abraham... the same God of the many variations of Christianity out there. By calling my God "false" you are calling you own God the same.

We don't have a different God or Jesus for that matter than what all the variations of Christianity out there have. What sets us apart fundamentally is that we don't believe that there was a break after Jesus's sacrifice and communication with Him and God ceased to exist. We believe that He visited the other people that existed in the world, and communicated with us to this day through prophets that are called by Him.

If you check out http://www.fairwiki.org there is a lot of discussion about why their may not be DNA evidence along with other historical data.

About historicity... I admit I haven't really spent much time and effort in looking into the actual historical nature of the Bible or The Book of Mormon for that matter.. To me, faith is well...faith. If I have to search for absolute proof to make the leap from not believing to having total belief and faith in God, then it isn't really faith.

The very definition of faith is belief without proof. If there existed a way to prove to all people that God existed, faith would not be a factor at all!

If we wanted to use your arguement about the Resurrection (which by the way we focus on as a church as well) and why would people lie, especially if it meant their death...Why did Joseph Smith, his brother, and many others die in the name of Mormonism?

Why were so many people willing to walk thousands of miles pulling hand carts to flee to where they could practice their beliefs without being killed or persecuted? Why was there 11 people who were willing to testify of seeing the gold plates if they knew it could ruin their lives for saying so? They were willing to give of their lives for what they perceived to be the truth..but according to you and many others out there they were fools..
Or even outside of Mormonism, did David Koresh have it right, and that was why he and his group were willing to die?

What makes Mormonism a cult? According to dictionary.com the definition of a cult is : a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

According to you, this is a false religion. I say not, but hey since we are looking at this from your perspective..we'll leave it. However, since the Mormon church encourages community service and we live within conventional society we are not a cult.

Cassandra

[Don Lee]

The direct translation into King James english is a tough one to explain, isn't it?

The King James Version began in 1604 and was finished in 1611. It's been revised a few times since but not to change what the message says. It's a very accurate translation, however, the definition of some of the words have changed and other words have taken their place in the English language. However, a good dictionary will help.

Yes, they used to talk that way.

NOTE: When using a Merriam Webster dictionary, the first entry is the oldest and the last is the most recent. In Random House the first entry is the most recent and the last is the oldest. Check your dictionary!

Shakespeare wrote in this language.

Don

[orangezero]

I find all of this entertaining and interesting.

thanks,

[aaron]

I too would not throw around the word "cult". Besides taking into consideration a dictionary definition, the word contains a social stygma that at best conjurs up images in the mind of the rank-and-file that is not an accurate reflection of them as a group of people. This is a word commonly associated with Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, several reform groups, and Satanism.....only one of which I would actually be willing to refer to as a "cult".

I did however find out recently that mormons believe that in heaven both Jesus and Satan "applied" for the role of savior. Is there any basis in scripture for this belief or is it purely in th BoM and associated books?

And what is this book of Abraham???

Thanks. (BTW) I appreciate the overall kind tone of the discussion especially when speaking of religion/faith which can be a very personal touchy subject.