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Thread: What's happen with PALs when the frame is not in the right position of wear ?

  1. #1
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    What's happen with PALs when the frame is not in the right position of wear ?

    What's happen with PALs when the frame is not in the right position of wear ?

    • CVD = Corneal Vertex Distance
    • PT = Pantoscopic Tilt Angle
    • FFA = Face Form Angle

    1. One wearer with Premium PALs in four frames = 4 diffiference vision field.




    2. Three wearers with Premium PALs in one frame = 3 difference visual field.



    3. One wearer with Impression ILT in four frames = same visual field.


    Tell me if you like some more! :bbg:
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
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    :cheers:

  2. #2
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Bobbi,

    I'm confused. In the first series of plots, where the VD, Panto and face-form angle are not very *exceptional* from normal fitting experience & manufacturer recommendations, the reading-field reductions seem to be from a mis-overlap/non-centered situation. I ask you why this is so? I'm of a mind that a FFA of 3 vs 4 degress should not result in such a reduction of useful binocular FOV for reading in an properly monocularly-centered set of lenses

    Help me out here...Then I can understand the comparatives with the other plots better.

    Thanks

    Barry Santini, ABOM

  3. #3
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Thank you for your comment , Barry Santini

    You are very smart and have very good question.
    The standard parameter of this PALs are at below ;
    CVD = 13 mm
    PTA = 7 degree
    FFA = 5 degree

    The first series of plots is show only the visual field with VA 20/20.
    The next picture will show you the visual field of exceptional VA.



    Barry , don't forget to see how cute of this lady. I like her so much , wow.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  4. #4
    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    Progressive Positioning

    I want to share a technique I've used for over 30 years I learned from a colleague in Switzerland. The issue is whether to try to interpret all these diagrams and plotting of the curves and zones into something tangible at the dispensing table.
    It's difficult at best. However, I am recalling some excellent comments Darryl made a while ago (can't find it) which corroborate the fact that it's what the patient sees that is the acid test. So, I have a tendency to minimize the hype from the manufacturer and rely on what I called a tangential field plotting technique. Using this technique, I have learned what the patient sees and have discovered relationships between the field plots, the patient's complaint if they can't articulate it, and the positioning of the lenses.
    Moreso, not only was I able to diagnose a fitting problem that may have caused a visual problem, but the technique clearly teaches the patient what to expect, how to use the lenses, and using a graphic presentation generated by the patient, receive valuable input leading to a solution. In order to share that technique with you, I created a Power Point presentation that tells the story. Please note, as an artist . . . I suck! I also had to "fudge" a little on creating the "real world" grid pattern, as that particular issue of the Chronicle had some pretty crummy classified layouts. You will see, however, that if you whip out a copy of the Sunday paper every time you do this, nice and fresh, the patient gets a kick out of it and it makes the progressive experience that much more interesting.
    Once you master the technique there is no situation you can't deal with. It works for any brand. The pattern shapes may differ from brand to brand. But, that's your job to catalog.
    I set up a web page anyone can download it from. If we can get it included in the Optiboard File section, that'd be great. It's been virus checked. Only one rule . . . nobody gets to laugh at my Power Points. OK?
    My thanks to Darryl, who's comments led to the presentation. And, my apologies for not finding the specific posting he made.
    http://mysite.verizon.net/resod5iy/optical/
    Note: This is a zipped file that unzips into a Power Point Show uneditable file.

  5. #5
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Thank for your great job Alan , I like your job so much.
    http://mysite.verizon.net/resod5iy/optical/ is very interesting and it will be perfect if you include the intermediate zone in this test.

    In Thailand , we also test PALs in this way but our wearer have to draw with the big pen for the area that they can see clear without moving the head but by moving the eye around the PALs. :D
    In our test , the wearer use the same newspaper and wear 5 difference PALs and drawn the visual field on newspaper with the difference color of big pen. :D
    In this way , we also can test about the positon of wear by adjust the position of the frame. :D
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    Great, Bobie

    It's nice to know others use this type of diagnostic and training tool. My career has taken me all over the country observing opticians working with patients. Unfortunately, too many don't have an interactive tool that allows the patient to express his experience graphically. But, when that does happen, as I've seen, and now I know you do, too, the whole progressive experience rises from a mysterious experience to something very solid and well received by both parties. In fact, I've seen so many patients who have lost their "patience" with progressives because of the frustration of not being able to express their experience, do a 180 with this technique.

    My Power Point needs a lot of refining, I'm sure. And, one of these days I will. I don't practice opticianry any more. But, every once in a while, some old buddy calls with a question. I give them a 20 minute training session using the field plotting and they have no problem after that.

    Thanks for you kind comments.

  7. #7
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Thank you for your sharing , Alan. :D
    We look forward for your power point and would like to keep in touch for our discussion.
    In Thailand , we also test PALs on trial frame like the picture at below ;

    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  8. #8
    Allen Weatherby
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    The photo below is a trial lens for an individualized PAL lens?

    If so how many trial lenses are there? How can this work for an individualized lens design?


  9. #9
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    AWTECH ,
    The Individual Free Form Trial PALs have been order parameter for Trial Frame and this trial frame can adjust Pantoscopic Tilt Angle , Corneal Vertex Distance , Fitting Height and P.D. to correct position of wear in each wearer. In this case we need only one of Adjustable Trial Frame and we used Bicoh Titanium Adjustable Trial Frame with Trial PALs for over 5 years.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  10. #10
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobie
    AWTECH ,
    The Individual Free Form Trial PALs have been order parameter for Trial Frame and this trial frame can adjust Pantoscopic Tilt Angle , Corneal Vertex Distance , Fitting Height and P.D. to correct position of wear in each wearer. In this case we need only one of Adjustable Trial Frame and we used Bicoh Titanium Adjustable Trial Frame with Trial PALs for over 5 years
    I think what he is asking is:

    How do you reatain or demonstarte to your patient the benifits of the lens being individualized. If you are using a plano/with add power in the trial frame then you are not using an individualized lens, but a progressive design with a spero-cylindrical lens in the patients Rx. This could be demonstarted with any progressive and has no benifits of being individualized.
    1st* HTML5 Tracer Software
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    *Dave at OptiVision has a web based tracer integration package that's awesome.

  11. #11
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    Thanks , HarryChiling
    We have only Plano ADD 1.00D to ADD 3.00D of Trial Individual PALs.
    Our patient can get the benifits of the individual PALs only for Face Form Angle only.
    You are right that the wearer can not get benifits of individualized of Rx, but in the trial frame we used seperate SPH. lens and CYL. lens that working like individualize Rx.
    We have been used this system to present the wearers about the vision they can get from Individual PALs and when theirs eyeglasses ready , all of them said much better than in Trial Frame.

    We also have Panamic , Progressiv life 2 , Progressiv SI , Progressiv life XS , Summit pro , Hoyalux GP Trial PALs to present the wearers what design they like , but when their eyeglasses ready , all of them said it not good like in Trial Frame.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  12. #12
    Allen Weatherby
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    How do you use this

    Bobie: How do you use the trail frame with a plano and add to show someone with a -4.50 sphere, -1.25 cyl, 57 degrees who needs a 2.00 add. Please explain, I must be missing something.

  13. #13
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    AWTECH ,
    • Put the one piece of SV trial lenses SPH. - 4.50D
    • Put the one piece of SV trial lenses CYL. - 1.25D then turn the axis to 57 degree.
    • Put the trial PALs plano ADD 2.00D in the front.
    • adjust the P.D. of trial frame to the best P.D. for each wearer ( sometime it is not the distance P.D. )
    I will try to make the presentation and the video about this on 2007 and will post at www.apcthai.com in English section.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  14. #14
    Bad address email on file
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    I gotta say that is an great approach to fitting prog. lenses. It is way more than most Opticians are doing in the states. Where can I get a trial frame like that? and Do you edge the trial lenses your self or were the lens trials provided to you by the lens companies.

    I would love to be able to show my patients what they might expect BEFORE they decide. That just makes sense! :)

  15. #15
    Master OptiBoarder
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    That is a neat trial frame. I don't think that it gives a true representation of what individualized free form progressives are really like though. Interesting concept, but, I don't see how it is a true test.

  16. #16
    The Hi-End PALs Specialist Bobie's Avatar
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    akeroptical ,
    Many years ago , Essilor and Hoya have been made few of Varilux II , Varilux MD , Varilux Comfort , Hoyalux GP , Hoyalux Summit pro , Hoyalux Summit CD and Hoyalux TACT Trial Lenses for Trial Frame , but they don't know how to present it to the wearer and after many complain from dispensing optician and O.D. that it 's not work. Then , they give up.
    May be you can ask Hoya or Essilor rep to get some trial PALs in their stock.
    In Thailand , we have to order and edge all trial PALs by ourself in full price not for free or any special price.
    We love this way , because our competiter don't want to pay and don't know how to used the trial PALs in trial frame.
    The key of our success in Premium PALs and Hi-End PALs is we have three difference quality of Trial PALs and have 3 corridor difference and have 3 difference Occupational PALs.
    We always show the Hi-End PALs first and follow with the most poor PALs and show the Premium PALs latest.
    The most of our customer will going to the Premium PALs because the price and quality is in the middle. ( The Hi-End PALs is very good but too expensive , the poor PALs is very cheap but the vision is very bad )
    After the customer choose the Premium PALs , we will show 3 difference of Occupational PALs , one for enhance reading at near ( super reading lenses ) , one for enhance desktop computer ( super computer lenses ) and one for both ( Super reading & computer lenses ). The point is if the wearer have to read or used computer more than 30 minute we recommended them to take PALs off and wear Occupational PALs to working smart and relax like when they was young.
    The wearer who buy Premium PALs and Occupational PALs love our solution very much and recommended their family , their friend to have the same solution.

    You are right , akeroptical
    Our reject rate of PALs is only 0.05% or less , because all of our patient have the right expect before they decide to buy our PALs , but we always try to make them expect less than the truth on each PALs.

    Fezz , Individual Free Form not work well on the Trial Frame. We need better trial frame and we are working very hard to make it possible in 2007 and we looking for carbon fiber of better material and would like to pay more than 1,000 US$ for each trial frame.

    When we sell Individual Free Form , we just show the patient , what happen when the position of wear is wrong and we inform them that , the Individual Free Form can fix this problem.

    Once again , the individual free Form PALs is the Hi-End product for the patient who would like to have the best only , no other. ( The Individual PALs need follow up to adjust the position of wear in correct position and we follow up every 90 days or when frame have been attack to wrong position.

    Individual PALs is for professional dispensing optician only. If the measurement parameter or the order or the edging or the fitting is wrong , it will be terrible result. We love to sell only the individual PALs because it make us in advance position far and far away from our competiter.

    Same PALs , but total difference result = Individual Free Form PALs. Then , we not have to going in war price.
    Last edited by Bobie; 12-21-2006 at 07:49 AM.
    " Life is too short to limit your vision"


    ISOPTIK : The Hi-End Eyeglasses Centre
    494 ERAWAN BANGKOK 4th floor
    Ratchaprasong , Bangkok , Thailand 10330
    isoptik@gmail.com
    www.isoptik.com
    Hotline & SMS : +66 81 538-4200
    Fax. : +66 2 251-3770

    :cheers:

  17. #17
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Alan,
    You're a genious!!! I just looked at your power point presentation, and I think you've hit something great. I don't wear progressives, and neither does anyone else in the office. So I have no one except my patients to tell me what's good and what's not. But this is such a great way to facilitate more communication besides, "These don't work, I want my money back!" LOL. We don't have many remakes, but this is a great way for us to compare brands, etc.

    I expecially like how the newspaper said "I just spent all my mortgage money on cocaine" Just made me laugh.

    Thanks for sharing that with all of us, though!

  18. #18
    Master OptiBoarder Alan W's Avatar
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    To: EyeFitWell

    Thank you for the nice comment.
    My pleasure.
    Merry Christmas.

    Alan W

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