Democrats: what should be done now?

[Grubendol]

You need to read "Screwed" by Thom Hartmann. It deals specifically with the undeclared war on the middle class...and what we can do about it.

aaron, I'm in the same boat as you. Young, trying to start a family and forced to work two jobs (as is my wife) to try and get by)

[chip anderson]

Have you ever noticed how everyone wants to tax someone else as long as it's not them.
Tax the rich, they can afford it they are only paying 90% of the taxes now, they won't mind.
Tax the smokers, we don't smoke so it won't effect us.
Tax diesel we don't use it.
Tax alcohol we don't drink.
Tax the churches we aren't religious.
Tax fishermen, we don't fish.
Tax hunting, we don't hunt.
Tax camping goods we don't go out anymore anyway.
Tax resturants we always eat at home.
Tax boats we could never afford one anyway.
Tax sugar it's bad for thier teeth.
Tax fatty oils, it's bad for thier little arteries
Gee, ain't we righteous.

Anybody notice that the Civil War started over a tax on Southern agriculture?

[Grubendol]

It was the plan of the founding fathers. It was the plan in the Bible (that's what a Jubilee is).

And the Boston Tea Party was not about "taxes" as everyone thinks, it was about corporate wellfare being applied to the East India Company, which was allowing their monopoly to flood the American market with tea that they had overproduced and could not sell, by preventing the importation of private company tea.

[Johns]

[quote=aaron;164571 Stuck in the middle is the worst place to be right now.
[/quote]

I know of a lot of "middle class" folks that are in the middle, and they will always be there, or lower, but the reason they are "stuck" is because of their own spending habits.

Many of the people I know that consider themselves "stuck"....

-have cell phones
-Buy CDs and DVDs like there's no tommorrow
-Have cable TV
-Make car payments on new cars
-Pay babysitters to watch their kids so their spouse can get a job to pay for all of the above (plus the sitter)
-Go on (financed) vacations
-Smoke cigarettes
-Update their wardrobes often
-Work one job, rather than take on another atr night to work down the debt (what a strange concept - huh?)
-and the list goes on...


I agree that we are taxed way too much, but more taxes for the guy that's giving you the job is not the answer!!!

I hired a guy that was making $7.50 an hour that managed to pay off his home in 12 years- while his wife stayed home. He makes much more $$, but he doesn't spend his money like it.

If you are handicapped, you might be stuck, but for the most part, if you have your health, and the desire to work your tail off, anything is possible.

[chip anderson]

Grubendol:
The idea of emancipation was not introduced until late in the war of Northern aggression. The war started over taxes. Was augmented by everything the North could find to keep the Southern economy ( removing slavery and slaves as property, as well as confiscation of many other properties) down after the war, in order to pay for the war.


You really should read some of Ashley Foote's stuff.


Chip

[Grubendol]

Oh, I know that the taxes issue was a big part of the civil War. Thom Hartmann has written books about that era. But that still doesn't change what the Founding Fathers intended taxes to be in the U.S. In fact, the taxes never went as far as Jefferson would have liked....he wanted the estate tax to complete divest inheritance, so that it would be impossible for an inherited aristocracy to take root in the U.S.....this is part of the reason that there are no dynasties born out of the founding fathers....point of fact most of them died in poverty or close to it.

[Pete Hanlin]

1. For the middle class
2. For the middle class
3. For the middle class

Hmmm, well- I consider myself middle class (I certainly can't afford a 100 ft. yacht), and my taxes will increase when the temporary tax cuts are rolled back.

BTW, as a member of the middle class, I'm okay that we pay the majority of taxes- after all, the majority of wealth is found in the middle class (due to sheer numbers). If it makes you feel good, you can tax the bezeejus out of the "wealthy," but the majority of the money comes from the middle class due to its relative size.

[Spexvet]

Pete, what's does the government pay that gets the lowest return on investment? I submit that it's the interest on the national debt. How can we reduce that expense without generating the revenue to pay it off (taxes)? I'd like to know so I can use it in my own family budget.

[shanbaum]

1. For the middle class
2. For the middle class
3. For the middle class

Hmmm, well- I consider myself middle class (I certainly can't afford a 100 ft. yacht), and my taxes will increase when the temporary tax cuts are rolled back.

BTW, as a member of the middle class, I'm okay that we pay the majority of taxes- after all, the majority of wealth is found in the middle class (due to sheer numbers). If it makes you feel good, you can tax the bezeejus out of the "wealthy," but the majority of the money comes from the middle class due to its relative size.

The majority of income in fact is earned by the top 20% of earners. Indeed, last time I looked, about 25% of income was earned by the top 2% of earners (which is why the claims of irrationally progressive taxation are duplicitous - the share of taxes paid by high-income-earners appears to be disproportionate only until you consider their share of the income - the two are roughly the same, suggesting that taxes are not progressive at all).

Wealth and income are two different things, Pete; in any case, your statement that "the majority of wealth is found in the middle class" is even less true if actually applied to wealth instead of income. The wealthiest 10% own about three-quarters of assets.

You can find some actual information (with links to original sources) at:

http://www.osjspm.org

[Grubendol]

1. For the middle class
2. For the middle class
3. For the middle class

Hmmm, well- I consider myself middle class (I certainly can't afford a 100 ft. yacht), and my taxes will increase when the temporary tax cuts are rolled back.

BTW, as a member of the middle class, I'm okay that we pay the majority of taxes- after all, the majority of wealth is found in the middle class (due to sheer numbers). If it makes you feel good, you can tax the bezeejus out of the "wealthy," but the majority of the money comes from the middle class due to its relative size.

the top 5 percent "earn" approximately 70 percent of the wealth in this country. The CEO of United Healthcare was compensated 1.16 BILLION last year...as his salary, not stock options.

[jherman]

leave us hunters, fishers alone, tax everyone elce but me.

Have you ever noticed how everyone wants to tax someone else as long as it's not them.
Tax the rich, they can afford it they are only paying 90% of the taxes now, they won't mind.
Tax the smokers, we don't smoke so it won't effect us.
Tax diesel we don't use it.
Tax alcohol we don't drink.
Tax the churches we aren't religious.
Tax fishermen, we don't fish.
Tax hunting, we don't hunt.
Tax camping goods we don't go out anymore anyway.
Tax resturants we always eat at home.
Tax boats we could never afford one anyway.
Tax sugar it's bad for thier teeth.
Tax fatty oils, it's bad for thier little arteries
Gee, ain't we righteous.

Anybody notice that the Civil War started over a tax on Southern agriculture?

[Robert Martellaro]

If you drive a car-car I'll tax the street
If you try to sit-sit I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk I'll tax your feet

Tax man -George Harrison

Cut spending, starting with earmarks, waste, corporate welfare, nation building, then five percent across the board including entitlements.

Realistically, some increase in taxes, progressively, on the top five percent will be needed, along with increasing the estate tax.

[Pete Hanlin]

That's right... redirect the conversation- my point remains that MY taxes will go up, and I posit that I am NOT a member of the "wealthy." (Or "rich," or "with money," or whatever other semantics you want to substitute.) Bottom line, I think I pay plenty in taxes right now (under the current lowered rates), and the thought that my rate will soon increase makes me ill.

As to the national debt, if we reinstate (and steadfastly stick to) the Grahmn-Rudman Act, then you can come to me to ask for taxes to reduce debt. Otherwise, its tax to spend more...

[coda]

Pete,

Both teams like to spend, it's just a matter of what they like to spend on. Right now the Republic Party likes to borrow rather than tax whereas the Democrat Party likes to tax. I don't think either is the answer but if you had to choose how would you fund the spending?

No, you're not allow to choose 'spend less'.

I ask because I don't have a simple answer to this one. I don't like getting taxed either but I also don't like all that red on the ballance sheet.

-Coda

[Grubendol]

If you look at the economic history of this nation, it has done better, for the middle class, under democratic presidencies than it has under republican ones.

[Fezz]

I know of a lot of "middle class" folks that are in the middle, and they will always be there, or lower, but the reason they are "stuck" is because of their own spending habits.

Many of the people I know that consider themselves "stuck"....

-have cell phones
-Buy CDs and DVDs like there's no tommorrow
-Have cable TV
-Make car payments on new cars
-Pay babysitters to watch their kids so their spouse can get a job to pay for all of the above (plus the sitter)
-Go on (financed) vacations
-Smoke cigarettes
-Update their wardrobes often
-Work one job, rather than take on another atr night to work down the debt (what a strange concept - huh?)
-and the list goes on...


I agree that we are taxed way too much, but more taxes for the guy that's giving you the job is not the answer!!!

I hired a guy that was making $7.50 an hour that managed to pay off his home in 12 years- while his wife stayed home. He makes much more $$, but he doesn't spend his money like it.

If you are handicapped, you might be stuck, but for the most part, if you have your health, and the desire to work your tail off, anything is possible.

Great post! I believe in living debt free and am working very hard at becoming unburdened by debt myself. We all have seen and heard the complaints about how "expensive glasses are" and "we can't afford them", and see them talking on there cell phones, wearing NFL jerseys, etc. Middle class? Stuck? How about "UNMOTIVATED", "WHINEY", "UNINSPIRED", "LAZY"! Stuck is a state of mind, not a state of mine!
I may be middle class. I may always be middle class. But, I will never be "Stuck"!

:cheers:

[Bill West]

Eight years of Rep and then eight years of Demo. It ain't the parties it is the BS politicians on both sides. We have been screwed blued and tattoed by the lying A-holes no matter which party is in power. WAKE UP America if we the people don't rise up and raise enough hell to make it right it's over for all of us. If you think your vote counts then how did we get where we are? Are we all really that stupid or have we been snowed? Things are going to change even if nobody loses or wins. The trick is when change comes that it is a change for the better. Ain't seen that for a while and I'm going back over 50 years. Promises, promises and we get nothing but hot air and screwed. Dream on you dummies who think the system is going to do something positive for you.:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Grubendol]

I'm working two jobs and still buried in debt....medical expenses put me there. I had to declare bankruptcy but it hasn't changed my status.

[John Sheridan]

...my point remains that MY taxes will go up, and I posit that I am NOT a member of the "wealthy." (Or "rich," or "with money," or whatever other semantics you want to substitute.)...

I don't mean this as a personal attack against you Pete (or anyone else for that matter) so please don't take it that way - but a simple fact about human nature is that no one, with the possible exception of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, sees themselves as "rich" or "wealthy".

People who make $60,000 per year look up at the people who make $200,000 and say "those guys are wealthy, not me".

Those who make $200,000 look up at those making $500,000 and say the same thing.

Those making $500,000 look at those making $1.5 milllion
etc.
etc.

The fact is, the median family income in the US is about $35,000 per year. That's family income, not personal salary. So if anyone's family income is substantially above that - which I suspect is true for most people who post here - then they can be considered to be "wealthy".

Of course none of this addresses the question of whether or not taxes are too high already. I believe that the government does overspend, and overtax. If a private corporation tried to run their finances the way the government runs theirs, they will be out of business in no time.

[coda]

Elucidating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

[Grubendol]

The middle class really refers less to income than to way of life.

if a single person can support a family of four...all the way through college, they should be middle class.

[Pete Hanlin]

No, you're not allow to choose 'spend less'.

Sorry, but that is my solution... If you'll notice in my post, I was in favor of two things- first, keeping tax rates at their current (reduced) level. The important second thing- reinstating a comprehensive version of the Grahmn-Rudman Act.

Basically, the act stated that the government couldn't spend more than it took in. Seems like a pretty good idea to me. The Legislative/Executive branches should be legally required to come up with a deficit-spending free budget.

Another key concept towards fixing our nation's financing would be a minimal federal government. That is, the STATES should be in charge of expenditures/collections within their boundaries. That includes pretty much everything except national defense and interstate commerce & transportation (coincidentally, that's pretty much the way the original government was established).

In our current situation, each representative goes to Congress to "get as much as they can" in spending for his/her district- a recipe for deficit spending. As income/spending becomes less local- the government charged with collecting and distributing the funds becomes less accountable.

I don't have a closed mind about many things, but the tax rate is one of them- I (and I believe the majority of people) pay enough in taxes. We simply spend too much. No, social spending isn't the sole cause of overspending (it costs a lot to maintain five branches of the military as well- and waging a war is quite costly). Without a doubt, there is waste aplenty in both our social programs and our military spending (if you required a balanced budget, I have to believe we would discover ways to gain efficiencies in spending).

[Spexvet]

Pete, this is just a comment, not a disagreement with you. In New Jersey, everyone complains about local property taxes, they're way too high. The reason is that Governor Christie Whitman ran on the platform that she would reduce state taxes by 30% - and she did it. But all she did was stop the local funding, pushing the tax burden on local municipalities - while state taxes went down, local taxes went up by the same amount - it was a wash, in the end.

[Spexvet]

No, you're not allow to choose 'spend less'.

Sorry, but that is my solution... If you'll notice in my post, I was in favor of two things- first, keeping tax rates at their current (reduced) level. The important second thing- reinstating a comprehensive version of the Grahmn-Rudman Act.

Basically, the act stated that the government couldn't spend more than it took in. Seems like a pretty good idea to me. The Legislative/Executive branches should be legally required to come up with a deficit-spending free budget.

Another key concept towards fixing our nation's financing would be a minimal federal government. That is, the STATES should be in charge of expenditures/collections within their boundaries. That includes pretty much everything except national defense and interstate commerce & transportation (coincidentally, that's pretty much the way the original government was established).
...

Basically, I agree with that. There are some things that I think should get some help from the fed gov. Education helps the nation. Without educated people, our nation will decline. You may argue that the states who value education will educate their citizens, and become the movers and shakers for the country, but that just means the wealthiest states will become the ruling class. There are other examples, but I have to go.